All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[vindaloo]

What makes the war in Ukraine genocidal?

Oh dear.

 

[Maggie5]

One might feel the urge to point out that poor Vindaloo was crucified in this thread due to alleged misjudgements of an incident whereas unproven accusations of genocide run rampant and unopposed....

Lucky I don't have that urge.

Serious question.

What would you call the killing of over 30,000 citizens, unknown numbers of persons with missing limbs, starvation of people, destruction of homes and displacement of millions?

 

[JB1975]

You must be referring to to the Ukraine when you say Genocide. I'm not very good at politics but I'm sure there are more pressing matters here. How is Genocide politics anyway. There was a stabbing in Sydney recently, I believe it was an Islamic extremist, is that politics?

You might want to look up what genocide means. You're deficient.

How is genocide politics? Look up the definition of politics while you're at it. Be aware that there's more than one definition, but genocide would fit comfortably within almost all.

You might have noticed that there's another politics thread, dedicated to things other than Israel's war on children. Maybe that's what you're after? Why don't you shuffle your self-retired arse over there and have a discussion about Ukraine?

---------------------------------------------------

But that's not what you really want, is it? No, you'd just prefer that no one mentions Israel's barbarism.

 

[JB1975]

Serious question.

What would you call the killing of over 30,000 citizens, unknown numbers of persons with missing limbs, starvation of people, destruction of homes and displacement of millions?

The ICJ found a plausible case of genocide months ago. Its judgment --and the evidence used to arrive at it-- remains just as relevant today.

 

[JB1975]

Oh dear.

Don't be alarmed by the question. Try and answer it.

 

[vindaloo]

Don't be alarmed by the question. Try and answer it.

I think what is becoming apparent is that you value human life more when it's convenient for your ideology.

 

[Maggie5]

The ICJ found a plausible case of genocide months ago. Its judgment --and the evidence used to arrive at it-- remains just as relevant today.

This is a good article about the usage of words like 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing'.

It is always difficult in finding the right word when describing what is happening.

NYT instructed journalists covering Israel’s war on the Gaza Strip to restrict the use of the terms “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and to “avoid” using the phrase “occupied territory” when describing Palestinian land, according to a copy of an internal memo obtained by The Intercept.

The memo also instructs reporters not to use the word Palestine “except in very rare cases” and to steer clear of the term “refugee camps” to describe areas of Gaza historically settled by displaced Palestinians expelled from other parts of Palestine during previous Israeli–Arab wars. The areas are recognized by the United Nations as refugee camps and house hundreds of thousands of registered refugees.

The memo — written by Times standards editor Susan Wessling, international editor Philip Pan, and their deputies — “offers guidance about some terms and other issues we have grappled with since the start of the conflict in October.”

While the document is presented as an outline for maintaining objective journalistic principles in reporting on the Gaza war, several Times staffers told The Intercept that some of its contents show evidence of the paper’s deference to Israeli narratives.

In the end history will decide.

 

[JB1975]

I think what is becoming apparent is that you value human life more when it's convenient for your ideology.

I didn't think you could put forward a cogent answer.

That's alright. You know your limitations and so do we.

 

[vindaloo]

I didn't think you could put forward a cogent answer.

That's alright. You know your limitations and so do we.

I know some really good eggs in my life. Actual real humanitarians and they wouldn't be posting your dribble day in day out pushing a narrative that Israel are committing a genocide when it's up for debate. Here's the obvious thing though - people have actually suggested what's happening in Ukraine may be that sexy word you adore, a genocide, but ultimately it doesn't really matter if it is or not as over in that part of the world many many thousands of innocent people including children have died for a land grab. No real humanitarian I'd know, only unhinged ideologues would actually get caught up in 'Genocide' as if to diminish the deaths of innocents over there.

 

[JB1975]

Haven't heard from KD in a while?
View attachment 1962878

She was recently married. Sorry to tell you that her 'assets' are off the market.

 

[JB1975]

I know some really good eggs in my life. Actual real humanitarians and they wouldn't be posting your dribble day in day out pushing a narrative that Israel are committing a genocide when it's up for debate. Here's the obvious thing though - people have actually suggested what's happening in Ukraine may be that sexy word you adore, a genocide, but ultimately it doesn't really matter if it is or not as over in that part of the world innocent people and children have died for a land grab. No real humanitarian I'd know, only unhinged ideologues would actually get caught up in that.

You've found a longer form of words to say 'I don't know'.

I guess that's progress?

Edit: It's a bit tragic that the conversation has shifted to Ukraine and you have absolutely nothing to say.

 

[ZEV]

Serious question.

What would you call the killing of over 30,000 citizens, unknown numbers of persons with missing limbs, starvation of people, destruction of homes and displacement of millions?

Before I give a genuinely serious answer... I know we have had our differences in the past but I felt that horrible massacre of women in Bondi there was a change in your posting and it felt to me that you in particular were really affected by it. I hope you are doing well and you have been in my thoughts this week.

Ok serious answer time.

I don't believe that 33,000 people have died. I don't believe Hamas figures. That number also insinuates that there have been no militia/Hamas/PIJ/salafi jihadi deaths.

The volume of innocents dying has left me heavily depressed, suicidal and in treatment for PTSD.

I have regular nightmares about being an amputee, I have had them for 20+ years in all honesty.

I don't really know how to feel about the allegations of starvation. I'm sure there are children suffering. I can't understand why some parents would choose to be in the active areas of a warzone with high levels of food insecurity. I also don't know why there are excess aid elements being sold in markets in southern Gaza.

Couldn't care less about homes. It's happened to me personally no biggie. I like camping.

Displacement of millions has saved tens of thousands of lives. Displacement of hundreds of thousands in Israel has also probably saved lives. I moved my family interstate when this conflict started. I'm good with that too. It's shit and lonely but safety first.

It's not a genocide. It's a poorly waged war by Hamas who have strived to achieve as many Palestinian casualties and deaths as possible. Lucky that Israel and Jews otherwise the number of deaths would be tenfold.

 

[sideswipe]

She was recently married. Sorry to tell you that her 'assets' are off the market.

This is a politics thread. Not sure what your dirty little mind is thinking? KD still knocks back schooners at the The Buena in Mosman.

 

[sr36]

What I find absolutely disgusting is that I have acknowledged the dispicable behavour of BiBi yet also get held to a higher account for some reason for not going hard enough - and then what goes completely unchecked is the propoganda that there is no evidence of Mass rape, babies being decapitated and other henious crimes on Octorber 7. Absolutely repugnant is what that behavouir is. Makes my blood boil.

It's not your views, i'ts your blatant dishonesty, disingenuousness and pitiful attempts to be sly and cunning with your statements that make your posts such a target.

 

[vindaloo]

You've found a longer form of words to say 'I don't know'.

I guess that's progress?

Edit: It's a bit tragic that the conversation has shifted to Ukraine and you have absolutely nothing to say.

How is that tragic, what would you like me to say about Ukraine that I haven't already?

 

[JB1975]

Before I give a genuinely serious answer... I know we have had our differences in the past but I felt that horrible massacre of women in Bondi there was a change in your posting and it felt to me that you in particular were really affected by it. I hope you are doing well and you have been in my thoughts this week.

Ok serious answer time.

I don't believe that 33,000 people have died. I don't believe Hamas figures. That number also insinuates that there have been no militia/Hamas/PIJ/salafi jihadi deaths.

The volume of innocents dying has left me heavily depressed, suicidal and in treatment for PTSD.

I have regular nightmares about being an amputee, I have had them for 20+ years in all honesty.

I don't really know how to feel about the allegations of starvation. I'm sure there are children suffering. I can't understand why some parents would choose to be in the active areas of a warzone with high levels of food insecurity. I also don't know why there are excess aid elements being sold in markets in southern Gaza.

Couldn't care less about homes. It's happened to me personally no biggie. I like camping.

Displacement of millions has saved tens of thousands of lives. Displacement of hundreds of thousands in Israel has also probably saved lives. I moved my family interstate when this conflict started. I'm good with that too. It's s**t and lonely but safety first.

It's not a genocide. It's a poorly waged war by Hamas who have strived to achieve as many Palestinian casualties and deaths as possible. Lucky that Israel and Jews otherwise the number of deaths would be tenfold.

Israel has killed those people, Zev. Israel has killed those 13,000+ children and now starves them.

Israel has bombed the hospitals to give them medical attention.

I'm not looking to exacerbate your pain, but the notion that we should keep blaming Hamas because their atrocity started this particular violence is illogical and offensive.

You're dedicated to Israel, and I understand that and don't begrudge you for it, but why should that dedication and loyalty necessitate the most pitiful deflection and denialism.

Israel is doing this. Not Hamas.

 

[JB1975]

How is that tragic, what would you like me to say about Ukraine that I haven't already?

Answer the question: how is Russia's war in Ukraine a genocide?

 

[vindaloo]

It's not your views, i'ts your blatant dishonesty, disingenuousness and pitiful attempts to be sly and cunning with your statements that make your posts such a target.

Dude I've had you on ignore for a few weeks now, can you please stop quoting me?

 

[vindaloo]

Answer the question: how is Russia's war in Ukraine a genocide?

I stated my position on the matter actually and I stand by it 100 per cent. Go read it again. Tell me what you object about it?

 

[manicpie]

So much hatred on this thread, makes you wonder

 

[JB1975]

I stated my position on the matter actually and I stand by it 100 per cent. Go read it again. Tell me what you object about it?

I didn't ask you to re-state your position, I asked you to explain it.

But you haven't really progressed at all, have you. Shame.

 

[manicpie]

Answer the question: how is Russia's war in Ukraine a genocide?

You'll only know the answer to that if you really want to see it. Is the answer because it's not israel and Palestine?

 

[JB1975]

So much hatred on this thread, makes you wonder

Some hate genocide and some hate it being talked about.

Nothing to wonder about, really.

 

[JB1975]

You'll only know the answer to that if you really want to see it. Is the answer because it's not israel and Palestine?

More words in lieu of an actual explanation. I'm beginning to think you like me.

 

[Maggie5]

Before I give a genuinely serious answer... I know we have had our differences in the past but I felt that horrible massacre of women in Bondi there was a change in your posting and it felt to me that you in particular were really affected by it. I hope you are doing well and you have been in my thoughts this week.

Ok serious answer time.

I don't believe that 33,000 people have died. I don't believe Hamas figures. That number also insinuates that there have been no militia/Hamas/PIJ/salafi jihadi deaths.

The volume of innocents dying has left me heavily depressed, suicidal and in treatment for PTSD.

I have regular nightmares about being an amputee, I have had them for 20+ years in all honesty.

Thank for your reply and I am truly sorry about your experiences and what you are going through.

In regard to the 30,000 not sure what difference it would make if it were 10,000 or 20,000 any number that has thousands is a disproportionate response. UN numbers for the displacement aren't questioned and video footage of the destruction of homes, hospitals and businesses is indisputable.

I don't really know how to feel about the allegations of starvation. I'm sure there are children suffering. I can't understand why some parents would choose to be in the active areas of a warzone with high levels of food insecurity. I also don't know why there are excess aid elements being sold in markets in southern Gaza.

Couldn't care less about homes. It's happened to me personally no biggie. I like camping.

Displacement of millions has saved tens of thousands of lives. Displacement of hundreds of thousands in Israel has also probably saved lives. I moved my family interstate when this conflict started. I'm good with that too. It's s**t and lonely but safety first.

But these are their homes, their livelihood, the alternative is displacement which I can assure you from personal experience it is hell!

It's not a genocide. It's a poorly waged war by Hamas who have strived to achieve as many Palestinian casualties and deaths as possible. Lucky that Israel and Jews otherwise the number of deaths would be tenfold.

I don't personally like the word 'genocide' but am thinking that 'ethnic cleansing' is the aim of the Israeli government.


I now read that the government has decided to build more homes in the West Bank. I know of Palestinian people that live in the West Bank and have business there and they are very worried about the following.

Israel plans to build 3,300 new settlement homes. It says it's a response to a Palestinian attack

A senior Cabinet minister says Israel plans to build more than 3,300 new homes in settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank in response to a fatal Palestinian shooting attack.

apnews.com

Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

An Israeli minister has said the construction is a response to a recent deadly Palestinian attack.

www.bbc.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-panel-greenlights-nearly-3500-new-west-bank-homes/

It seems to me that Israel doesn't want any compromise or solution until the Palestinian people are no longer in Israel.

This isn't ending anytime soon sadly.