No Oppo Supporters OPPOSITION OBSERVATION XXXV

[RFCGloryJC]

Hawthorn Football Club will implement social reforms.
They will have a Collective Minds training camp.

 

[Livonski]

All the talk is moot. 34 players are convicted PED cheats, and that is the only fact that counts

Of course that's true.

But we can get more of an insight into how these events unfolded, who was truly responsible and the structure (or lack of) at Ess that allowed this to happen. Two of my kids are in their early 20s and they come home from work with some disturbing stories about what their managers did and how they've often felt (because they're kids) that they just did what they were told. Nothing like Ess but I can see how the players can be totally trusting and naive.

 

[tigerdan]

Of course that's true.

But we can get more of an insight into how these events unfolded, who was truly responsible and the structure (or lack of) at Ess that allowed this to happen. Two of my kids are in their early 20s and they come home from work with some disturbing stories about what their managers did and how they've often felt (because they're kids) that they just did what they were told. Nothing like Ess but I can see how the players can be totally trusting and naive.

I think that was the point, just because you're a kid and trusting, you don't get let off. Tough rules but tough shit.

Its the only way to stop cheats using the same excuse. The only exemption was being drugged while unconscious.

 

[Livonski]

I think that was the point, just because you're a kid and trusting, you don't get let off. Tough rules but tough s**t.

Its the only way to stop cheats using the same excuse. The only exemption was being drugged while unconscious.

I'm not saying it's an excuse.
Just that I can see how it played out. Management were deplorable.

To put it another way, the players wouldn't have done it without it being pushed hard at them by Weapon/Dank, who the players thought were fully empowered by Hird. Hird/Reid/Thompson/Corcoran/Goodwin/Wellman etc all should've been aware and all should've stopped it at the beginning.
For them to claim to be unaware or uninformed of exactly what was being injected is the disgraceful aspect of this.

 

[SplintWhisky]

Of course that's true.

But we can get more of an insight into how these events unfolded, who was truly responsible and the structure (or lack of) at Ess that allowed this to happen. Two of my kids are in their early 20s and they come home from work with some disturbing stories about what their managers did and how they've often felt (because they're kids) that they just did what they were told. Nothing like Ess but I can see how the players can be totally trusting and naive.

You should look up the Milgram experiment. Basically it showed that with very neutral prompting from people we consider "in charge" most people will easily kill another person.

The biggest question is why the players didn't confide anything to their management once the NDA's got thrown infront of them. You would think that one of the jobs they should offer for their cut was to help players before they sign anything.

 

[tropicaltiger]

Clarko on his first day, after being told one of his players was running late for a weights session because he had to drive his girlfriend to a dentist appointment.

 

[All Aust]

Not exactly true.
He had some sympathy for the players.
No sympathy for the club as a whole.

He basically laid out the facts. It’s up to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

1)Hird wanted them bigger and stronger
2) The Weapon got Dank.
3) Dank was dodgy as f
4) Hird wanted it legal but cutting edge
5) Players were told it was legit
6) Players, when asked by random testers, did NOT disclose they’d taken anything
7) Demetriou tipped off Evans. Evans told Hird not to tell anyone. Hence they fell out
8) Demetriou left it to Gil to try to negotiate with ASADA to get players off.
9) Gil and Little pressured Hird to take the deal to end it
10) Players initially got off but then WADA jumped in and they were found guilty. No one tested positive to anything.

There’s plenty more and I may have missed a lot of important facts.
IMO the players thought they weren’t cheating but kept what they were doing secret. Dank, Weapon we’re dodgy and were involved with some very ordinary people.
Remember this all started because the Feds were monitoring organised crime and it’s potential to compromise athletes and rig sporting events.

I recommend anyone who has an opinion on this matter to read both books. They will round out your knowledge of the issue.

With reading the books, This appears to be close to what I thought had happened. Add that the club doctor was not party to decisions?

Stand and applaud this post.

 

[Livonski]

You should look up the Milgram experiment. Basically it showed that with very neutral prompting from people we consider "in charge" most people will easily kill another person.

The biggest question is why the players didn't confide anything to their management once the NDA's got thrown infront of them. You would think that one of the jobs they should offer for their cut was to help players before they sign anything.

I agree. The non disclosure by the players is the thing that just doesn't add up for me. It's what sways me against them being completely innocent.
It beggars belief that a few of them didn't discuss with their manager/mum/dad/DocReid. But maybe they did and everyone bought the "it's all approved by WADA" line from Dank.
For reference from the book, he was at training one night waving around pieces of paper and announcing it all to be approved by WADA.
What was approved? Maybe something they didn't even take. Thymosin...or Beta4???

 

[tigerdan]

I agree. The non disclosure by the players is the thing that just doesn't add up for me. It's what sways me against them being completely innocent.
It beggars belief that a few of them didn't discuss with their manager/mum/dad/DocReid. But maybe they did and everyone bought the "it's all approved by WADA" line from Dank.
For reference from the book, he was at training one night waving around pieces of paper and announcing it all to be approved by WADA.
What was approved? Maybe something they didn't even take. Thymosin...or Beta4???

Theres so many things about this that grind my gears.

Dank was employed at geelong when they were winning flags. But there's no samples to re test.

The AFL tried to get them off.

The Essendon supporters then have the gall to balme demetriou.

ASADA ****ed up and they avoided getting pinged for AOD.

Jab Watson wouldnt give his medal back.

Turd gets welomed back to the game when he should have got the Lance Armstrong treatment.

They should have bern stung for both disrepute and doping.

Anyway, life goes on and they'll never live it down.

 

[smasha]

Collingwood looking for new CEO,close the Richmond deli tray.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

I agree. The non disclosure by the players is the thing that just doesn't add up for me. It's what sways me against them being completely innocent.
It beggars belief that a few of them didn't discuss with their manager/mum/dad/DocReid. But maybe they did and everyone bought the "it's all approved by WADA" line from Dank.
For reference from the book, he was at training one night waving around pieces of paper and announcing it all to be approved by WADA.
What was approved? Maybe something they didn't even take. Thymosin...or Beta4???

Off site injections of Vitamins! The off site part was so the club doctor didn’t know. No sympathy for them whatsoever.

Also for the period they doped, they put on large amounts of muscle over a single preseason yet were one of the hardest running 4th quarter teams in the league. All from the transformational power of calisthenics, a feat they haven’t seemed to replicate since because… reasons.

Since they’ve come off the “vitamins” they’ve been an unfit bunch of front runners, since according to bummers fans they didn’t take anything, then surely they just need to train hard to again become one the biggest and fittest teams ever?


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[Tiger Toffee]

**** Essendrugs, 13 wins on the trot for us against them and i can't see that streak ending anytime soon.

 

[Hans Klopek]

Imagine being this sh@% of an organisation?

 

[Masotiger]

I'm not saying it's an excuse.
Just that I can see how it played out. Management were deplorable.

To put it another way, the players wouldn't have done it without it being pushed hard at them by Weapon/Dank, who the players thought were fully empowered by Hird. Hird/Reid/Thompson/Corcoran/Goodwin/Wellman etc all should've been aware and all should've stopped it at the beginning.
For them to claim to be unaware or uninformed of exactly what was being injected is the disgraceful aspect of this.

I place a large slice of the blame on the senior players.

They had to lead the way on behalf of the playing group. If they chose not to go ahead with being taken off site and injected, it's not likely the club would've suspended them. I feel for the younger players whose careers rested on doing what they were asked.

And poor old Jobe still crying about his Brownlow - weak campaigner!!

 

[tigs2010]

Imagine being this sh@% of an organisation?

View attachment 1548215

Reckon he will win too

 

[Masotiger]

Reckon he will win too

So he should.

 

[Livonski]

I place a large slice of the blame on the senior players.

They had to lead the way on behalf of the playing group. If they chose not to go ahead with being taken off site and injected, it's not likely the club would've suspended them. I feel for the younger players whose careers rested on doing what they were asked.

And poor old Jobe still crying about his Brownlow - weak campaigner!!

Agree. The senior players did actually front the leaders with a wtf is going on. That’s where it all gets a bit messy cos nothing actually came of it. Reid demanded everything goes thru him, Dank said no worries then just continued on his merry way. And off-site was actually a better medical site than in Dank’s office downstairs. But then I heard of jabs in the carpark etc.
None of this is me defending anything that happened though, I’m just posting stuff I didn’t know before reading the books.

 

[THE THIN MAN]

The culture of a club can be defined by the football department.

Essendon had systemic failures in all facets, no matter how you spin it the players were complicit by going offsite and lying on their WADA forms.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

Of course that's true.

But we can get more of an insight into how these events unfolded, who was truly responsible and the structure (or lack of) at Ess that allowed this to happen. Two of my kids are in their early 20s and they come home from work with some disturbing stories about what their managers did and how they've often felt (because they're kids) that they just did what they were told. Nothing like Ess but I can see how the players can be totally trusting and naive.

Just imagine being an 18yo, pick 60 in the draft trying to fit in and establish some credibility and a career and you’ve got Hird, Watson, Heppell, Fletcher and co. telling you that it’s all ok.

Nobody on here can tell me that they would stand up to them in this instance.

That’s the most disgusting part of this. Senior players betrayed the trust that young kids put in them. Yes, there were breaches of trust all round but the kids were the most vulnerable. Probably also told told/threatened to keep it to themselves.

Hopefully, in time, a lot more gets written about this horrible chapter. There is much more truth to come out but probably plenty of NDA’s have been signed as well.

And what an odious tool of the rich and powerful they are.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Of course that's true.

But we can get more of an insight into how these events unfolded, who was truly responsible and the structure (or lack of) at Ess that allowed this to happen. Two of my kids are in their early 20s and they come home from work with some disturbing stories about what their managers did and how they've often felt (because they're kids) that they just did what they were told. Nothing like Ess but I can see how the players can be totally trusting and naive.

When you strip it all back, as a sport we were bound by WADA regulations. When you consider athletes are banned because they are not where they say they are going to be at any given point in time … no test, no drugs, just not there when they said they would be … are we really surprised that when Essendon players fudged their ‘forms’ on what they’d been taking they ended up suspended???

So forget the red herrings of no negative tests, legal/illegal drugs, player naivety, Dank’s protestations, and getting tipped off and being let off and later found guilty etc…. forget it all.

Athletes are suspended when they are not even there. Bomber players were injected with something that was not documented and even now no-one can tell us with confidence what it was…. then lied about what they were taking.

Are we really ‘surprised to be sitting here?’…..



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[Growapair]

Not exactly true.
He had some sympathy for the players.
No sympathy for the club as a whole.

He basically laid out the facts. It’s up to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

1)Hird wanted them bigger and stronger
2) The Weapon got Dank.
3) Dank was dodgy as f
4) Hird wanted it legal but cutting edge
5) Players were told it was legit
6) Players, when asked by random testers, did NOT disclose they’d taken anything
7) Demetriou tipped off Evans. Evans told Hird not to tell anyone. Hence they fell out
8) Demetriou left it to Gil to try to negotiate with ASADA to get players off.
9) Gil and Little pressured Hird to take the deal to end it
10) Players initially got off but then WADA jumped in and they were found guilty. No one tested positive to anything.

There’s plenty more and I may have missed a lot of important facts.
IMO the players thought they weren’t cheating but kept what they were doing secret. Dank, Weapon we’re dodgy and were involved with some very ordinary people.
Remember this all started because the Feds were monitoring organised crime and it’s potential to compromise athletes and rig sporting events.

I recommend anyone who has an opinion on this matter to read both books. They will round out your knowledge of the issue.

What did they take that was actually banned?
How was it different to what Dank supplied Geelong when the Weapon was there?
The gear that Ben Cousins was on when he won his Brownlow was way more performance enhancing, could make a fat 50 year old dance for 4 days lol

 

[DickieKnee]

Its the only way to stop cheats using the same excuse. The only exemption was being drugged while unconscious.

Weren't the bombers players told the injections were vitamins? If so I'm surprised no player took legal action. Very hefty penalties (including jail) for doing shit like that.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

What did they take that was actually banned?
How was it different to what Dank supplied Geelong when the Weapon was there?
The gear that Ben Cousins was on when he won his Brownlow was way more performance enhancing, could make a fat 50 year old dance for 4 days lol

So many ? marks over certain teams that hasn't been explored or more to the point swept under the carpet.
Geel when Thompson/Dank?Robinson were there.
West Coast when most of their players were built like tanks.
But also and this is across the board.
Players getting a jab so they can continue to play.Is it not performance enhancing?

 

[Freddy Swift]

I place a large slice of the blame on the senior players.

They had to lead the way on behalf of the playing group. If they chose not to go ahead with being taken off site and injected, it's not likely the club would've suspended them. I feel for the younger players whose careers rested on doing what they were asked.

And poor old Jobe still crying about his Brownlow - weak campaigner!!

IIRC Zaharakis refused all jabs because he hated needles. I don’t think the club suspended him. I agree about the younger players, probably thought they couldn’t say no.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

IIRC Zaharakis refused all jabs because he hated needles. I don’t think the club suspended him. I agree about the younger players, probably thought they couldn’t say no.

He may have had a thing about needles but according to ChipLe Grand's "Straight Dope" page 87 he takes his sus drugs in a rub on cream form...