List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc

[Blue__Balls]

Fact is if Henderson wants to leave to play for a Geelong or any other top 4 team (for eg) then it ain't going to happen. They will not be able to offer him a huge fee and Carlton will easily match it. If he is after money then Brisbane could be in the box seat. Just sign the contract Lachy and let's move on.

Carlton "matching it" is potentially irrelevant if he wants out - he's not a free agent. It may also be a matter of us not being willing to pay more than $X based on our current situation and plans for the future.

If he's chasing success, and Geelong go hard at Dangerfield to boost their midfield, they could still be quite dangerous. They've got the opposite problem to us - plenty of outside run (Duncan, Guthrie, Motlop, Stokes, Blicavs, Cockatoo, Lang etc.) but not a lot of grunt (Selwood copping it very hard and Caddy only just starting to find some consistency). Dangerfield gives them a massive boost in output and could almost single-handedly propel them back into the top 4. Hendo may see that as more a more attractive proposition than slogging it out for 5 years with us when we don't even know who our coach will be in three months time.

Theoretical trade scenario, if Hendo declared he wanted out, would we entertain Daniel Menzel and a pick (late 1st or early 2nd round?) for Hendo? Would go a long way towards securing Troy's services long-term, and if Dan's past his injury issues he has the potential to be a very handy player. Geelong get a starting CHB/swingman while we get a skillful HF and extra pick for either a slider or to secure an additional F/S. We lose a player who doesn't want to be here, while Geelong lose a bloke who hasn't featured in their team for 3+ years and a speculative pick.

Or after the Daisy fiasco, would we be better served by demanding a higher pick rather than chance a bloke with questionable durability?

 

[Blue__Balls]

armfield is a funny one do we keep him on or play a kid in his role?
this year he has got about a goal a game which is good for a half forward flanker, his papers were stamped I felt pre season but he has proved me wrong,

Armfield should be retained until someone forces themselves into his place, and then as long as he's got his spark he should be retained for depth and development of our reserves.

I made mention in another post recently that his positivity is infectious. He pounces on a loose ball and sneaks a goal and he's back up and roaring half a second later. One of the few overt personalities in our forward line and he just demands that his teammates swamp him for a celebration. That kind of thing fires the others up and gets them playing better, even if they don't realise it.

The closest we've got to a potential replacement is Tutt or Clem. The former is a gap-filler, but Armfield has him covered, while the latter needs time and probably fills a slightly different niche (defensive small forward ala Puopolo rather than the aggressive goal kicking small forward). Right now, Army almost requires permanent minding in our forward line as he's one of the only players who looks really dangerous when the loose ball hits the ground.

 

[ESKIE]

Armfield ... Keep

 

[ODNBlue]

Appreciate your thinking Blue__Balls, but personally I'm not sold on Menzel yet. He's young and so the jury in my mind is still out, but frankly I don't think he's done nearly enough to have earned the adulation some appear to give him.

Consequently, I wouldn't be trading for Daniel to keep Troy. I'd be looking for a very decent first round pick if they want Hendo... very decent.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Why would Geelong let Daniel Menzel go now after supporting him through 8 thousand knee recos? Why do we assume that brothers want to play on the same team all the time?

 

[Blue__Balls]

Why would Geelong let Daniel Menzel go now after supporting him through 8 thousand knee recos? Why do we assume that brothers want to play on the same team all the time?

No idea, just a hypothetical seeing as he's reportedly not far away from being declared available for selection, and that they may need to be fairly active at the trade table this year if they want to inject some best 22 talent into their list for another tilt at finals. Could be their last chance to get some value out of him depending on how he progresses from here.

There was a fair bit of talk to Troy was considering a move to Geelong, I think it was late last year, but not sure on the credibility. Plenty of examples of brothers wanting to play together (Dayne and Claye Beams recently) just as there are plenty of examples to the contrary. Being one of three brothers myself it would certainly be a factor if I were in a position to be choosing clubs - though not necessarily the top priority.

 

[Neese]

Why would Geelong let Daniel Menzel go now after supporting him through 8 thousand knee recos? Why do we assume that brothers want to play on the same team all the time?

Same reason we shouldn't let Kruezer go

 

[Blue__Balls]

Appreciate your thinking Blue__Balls, but personally I'm not sold on Menzel yet. He's young and so the jury in my mind is still out, but frankly I don't think he's done nearly enough to have earned the adulation some appear to give him.

Consequently, I wouldn't be trading for Daniel to keep Troy. I'd be looking for a very decent first round pick if they want Hendo... very decent.

Agreed to an extent, and I view Troy with a healthy amount of scepticism. He can come across a bit petulant at times, though maybe he (like Wingard) just suffers from resting jerk face.

I'd love to see him develop into a Breust/Gunston type leading forward who can play up on a wing if required. He needs to be good for a goal or two a game, and bob up a few times with 4+goal hauls. The ability is there, just need to see the work-rate lift to ensure he can get loose from his man every now and then and work into space.

I could be well off the mark, but it seems he's most dangerous when we effect a turnover, and I'm not 100% convinced that that's not because he hangs back when the play moves away from him rather than sticking with his man.

 

[andrew_]

Armfield ... Keep

Agreed, wouldn't be getting paid much, adds experience, pace and can fill holes around the ground (currently doing a small forward role). He also looks to be very vocal on the field, which we desperately need.

 

[ferrisb]

Makes sense BB, but

A) I don't want to draft a player with that kind of injury history

B) If D Menz does make it back to AFL footy, I'd like to see him playing with the cats. Just seems right for all.

Jeez he could have been pretty special...

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Makes sense BB, but

A) I don't want to draft a player with that kind of injury history

B) If D Menz does make it back to AFL footy, I'd like to see him playing with the cats. Just seems right for all.

Jeez he could have been pretty special...

Imagine the outrage if we drafted DM and then he got injured again. The BF servers would go down...it's bad enough for Daisy to injure a shoulder (totally unrelated to his previous injuries)

 

[Azul]

I'd be happy enough to pick up Dan Menzel as a delisted free agent om $100K/year.

 

[BM123]

I'd be happy enough to pick up Dan Menzel as a delisted free agent om $100K/year.

This.

Low risk, high reward scenario.

 

[dumb]

Geez, poor time to be knocking Dangles' goal-kicking and skills.............hear what you are saying but..............

fan of army, from early on when he was dashing out of back pocket. can't doubt his efforts, and he brings everything we want from a small forward, but i don't think i'll ever quite shake the feeling a lot of his goals are through good fortune rather than any inherent skill or goal sense. still, if you can scrounge a goal a week and 15 posessions from a guy who keeps an attacking half back quiet (ie heath shaw) you're not doing too bad.

 

[passmark]

armfield is a funny one do we keep him on or play a kid in his role?
this year he has got about a goal a game which is good for a half forward flanker, his papers were stamped I felt pre season but he has proved me wrong,

Apart from some games when he was coming back from injury last year, I've not seen a game where he hasn't given 100%.

Usually a good contributor but people see the odd clanger and forget that they are now rare.

 

[ferrisb]

What typically happens when a player retires with years to go on a contract due to injury?

Using Andrew Walker as an EXAMPLE.

Contracted for two more years after this one. Hypothetically his knee is stuffed and its decided he won't/can't play on.

Do we pay out his whole contract? Does he forgo pay? Somewhere in the middle where we say 'Andrew, you're not going to make it, we'll pay you half your remaining contract and call the whole thing off'?

 

[Moody Blue]

Imagine the outrage if we drafted DM and then he got injured again. The BF servers would go down...it's bad enough for Daisy to injure a shoulder (totally unrelated to his previous injuries)

No expectations on Menzel and no big wage bill. Daisy is the highest paid player (or close to it) and he has not played even a remotely dominant game indicating he is still an A Grader. At best he can be ranked as serviceable.

 

[ESKIE]

Armfiled >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daisy

 

[Carl]

Are we playing to win a few games or trying to build a list to win a premiership? If we want premierships then there are a lot of fringe players that have to go at the end of this year.

 

[HARKER]

Are we playing to win a few games or trying to build a list to win a premiership? If we want premierships then there are a lot of fringe players that have to go at the end of this year.

O.K and you're right but table it out.

It's really not as easy as it may sound on face value this year.............No-one has done it properly yet.

No-one has yet shaped the list for next year. It's harder than it was for the past couple of years even where we dropped 12 players per.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Are we playing to win a few games or trying to build a list to win a premiership? If we want premierships then there are a lot of fringe players that have to go at the end of this year.

To be replaced:

Judd
Carazzo?
Warnock?
Walker?
Giles?

There's our 4 live draft picks and a Rookie pick.

If you want to get rid of Ellard, Armfield, Watson, Johnson, Russell etc. where do we get replacements from? I'd prefer to retain a few of these guys for another year as depth (eg. Armfield and Ellard on exposed form), or in the hopes that under a new coach they can develop further (Watson, Johnson), and only get rid of them when we can pick up a good prospective player to fill their spot. Otherwise you're just replacing depth players with late late late draft picks or rookies, or you've got to hit free agency pretty hard.

You want to turn over another 10 players? Who comes in for them?

 

[bluekidjoe]

It's more that the current crop of fringe players need to be played so the club knows what they're going to get and can decide accordingly. Would not be surprised if Rd 15 on sees ins and outs increase for list management purposes.

 

[Dramoth]

To be replaced:

Judd
Carazzo?
Warnock?
Walker?
Giles?

There's our 4 live draft picks and a Rookie pick.

If you want to get rid of Ellard, Armfield, Watson, Johnson, Russell etc. where do we get replacements from? I'd prefer to retain a few of these guys for another year as depth (eg. Armfield and Ellard on exposed form), or in the hopes that under a new coach they can develop further (Watson, Johnson), and only get rid of them when we can pick up a good prospective player to fill their spot. Otherwise you're just replacing depth players with late late late draft picks or rookies, or you've got to hit free agency pretty hard.

You want to turn over another 10 players? Who comes in for them?

I would prefer to keep Giles... maybe move him to the rookie list at the end of the year and give him another 12 months to recover fully.

He was rated in his draft year as a quality tall defender and I would like to see him spend some time in the VFL over the next 18 months and see where he is at the end of next year. From what I have heard, he is back running again and rebuilding that calf muscle he lost from his 10 months in a moonboot.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

What typically happens when a player retires with years to go on a contract due to injury?

Using Andrew Walker as an EXAMPLE.

Contracted for two more years after this one. Hypothetically his knee is stuffed and its decided he won't/can't play on.

Do we pay out his whole contract? Does he forgo pay? Somewhere in the middle where we say 'Andrew, you're not going to make it, we'll pay you half your remaining contract and call the whole thing off'?

Depends on the AFL's mercy. They review retired contracts and see if they should waive the salary cap room or not.

If a player is legitimately injured they often can (T. Croad) was an example I remember

But if theyve entered into the contract with that injury over their head sort of thing or it looks like they are trying to extort the system they wont (like how they told Sydney they would not take Buddys money off their cap if he got injured)

 

[navybluesince75]

What typically happens when a player retires with years to go on a contract due to injury?

Using Andrew Walker as an EXAMPLE.

Contracted for two more years after this one. Hypothetically his knee is stuffed and its decided he won't/can't play on.

Do we pay out his whole contract? Does he forgo pay? Somewhere in the middle where we say 'Andrew, you're not going to make it, we'll pay you half your remaining contract and call the whole thing off'?

Depends on the AFL's mercy. They review retired contracts and see if they should waive the salary cap room or not.

If a player is legitimately injured they often can (T. Croad) was an example I remember

But if theyve entered into the contract with that injury over their head sort of thing or it looks like they are trying to extort the system they wont (like how they told Sydney they would not take Buddys money off their cap if he got injured)

The other thing to consider is that we can not force Walker to retire, he can choose to play on at his full contract rate for the full term of the contract, at this point in time the decisions are entirely his as he is contracted.

Leigh Colbert chose to renegotiate his contract at North Melbourne downwards as he felt he was not playing to the standard that they were paying him for (2nd year after leaving Geelong and still on the comeback from his knee reco) but I doubt there would be a lot of this happen.

The Sydney and Franklin deal may have set a nasty precedent for players retiring mid contract and the salary cap, the blues would have the choice to pay the contract out in full over it's original remaining term or depending on salary cap room may bundle it all into one year. if they were to delist Andrew ( can not see this happening ) they would be forced to include all of his remaining contract into this years salary cap.