List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc

[Blue__Balls]

Moneyball huh?

Served us well with Everitt and Docherty. Remains to be seen with Jaksch and Whiley. Not so good with Tutt and Jones.

Tutt and Jones were reactive though, based on the loss of Waite and Garlett. The perception was that we needed structurally like-for-like replacements, and they were the only ones we could afford without screwing over our entire draft.

Jaksch and Whiley I'm still optimistic on. They're young enough to be given a year or two to work into the side, and they've shown good signs already (along with some deficiencies that need to be addressed).

GWS are a good suitor for trading because their list is very heavy on talented kids of a good age. As such, they'd theoretically place a lower value on those players than a club, like us, who need them.

 

[ferrisb]

Moneyball huh?

Served us well with Everitt and Docherty. Remains to be seen with Jaksch and Whiley. Not so good with Tutt and Jones.

Exactly. Not only did it work well with Everitt and Doc, but it also netted us a good result for Hammer - as Richmond needed him more than we did.

Yes, the same principle applies to Tutt and Jones. So far I would consider these failures. But don't forget Tutt came for free and Jones was a punt. I don't think we overpaid for him per se, I just think we placed too much emphasis on the hope we(MM?) could fix him.

Find a club with too many something and bring that in. Find a club that is desperate for something we have to many of (list cloggers?) and you have the recipe for success.

The other choices for mispricing are: players wanting to move back home, players out of contract, players bouncing back from injury, players falling out with coaches (Lake to Hawthorn a great example). I'm not that keen on the last two - they can work but are risky.

EDIT: Btw all, welcome to the BB, ODN and FB thread....

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I still think you need a smattering of elite players. Can't all be solid citizens with a reasonable price tag.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I still think you need a smattering of elite players. Can't all be solid citizens with a reasonable price tag.

Weitering this year hopefully provides that in the backline.

Cripps in the midfield, need to keep stocking up here.

Gun key forward should be our focus next draft, as we'll probably be down the bottom reaches of the ladder again.

If Brisbane can pick up the KF they need, their midfield is streets ahead of ours. Gold Coast should march back up the ladder as long as Ablett doesn't fall apart again. Melbourne and St Kilda trending upwards, should both stay just ahead of us unless things go drastically wrong for them. We should expect to jump Essendon, maybe Port if they can't turn things around (though they'll score a few extra wins at home with the big advantage that gives them).

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Weitering this year hopefully provides that in the backline.

Cripps in the midfield, need to keep stocking up here.

Gun key forward should be our focus next draft, as we'll probably be down the bottom reaches of the ladder again.

If Brisbane can pick up the KF they need, their midfield is streets ahead of ours. Gold Coast should march back up the ladder as long as Ablett doesn't fall apart again. Melbourne and St Kilda trending upwards, should both stay just ahead of us unless things go drastically wrong for them. We should expect to jump Essendon, maybe Port if they can't turn things around (though they'll score a few extra wins at home with the big advantage that gives them).

There is that. If we remain at the bottom and take a long while to challenge then we do have to bring on the quality talls first so they are ready around the same time as quality mids taken after them in the draft. This finally says that we won't challenge with Murphy and Gibbs in the team however. Does take away the option of a fast rebuild. I kind of like keeping our options open as far as how many of our current list can contribute to a successful side. I do think we are not as bad as they would have us believe but are missing a handful of key ingredients. Where best to find those ingredients to take advantage of the ingredients we already have is what I have been pondering.

 

[Dramoth]

I think that the clubs targets this year are Weitering if we finish higher than last. And quite possibly Weitering if we finished last and trading out one of Henderson or Yarran for a mid to high first round pick so we can chase a quality young mid.

I think that We might also chase picks with some of our fringe players like Watson and Ellard. I am sure that Essendon will be looking at those types of players as cover for the time when the ban hammer finally comes down. At the minimum, they would be looking at losing the majority of their first team list for at least 12 months.

Regardless of who the next coach is next year, there are a couple of familiar names on our list who won't be there next year!

 

[therubbernub]

As a player the decision wasn't terrible. He hasn't redone his ankle so as you say we got that right. Anything else is unlucky.

Form wise, you can easily give allowances for his first season so it is an unknown as to where he would have been this year if he wasn't reinjured.

The big issue with Thomas is he does not fit the needs of a rebuilding side, both age wise and salary wise. It's proof positive that Mick wasn't thinking rebuild as early as some of the whispers suggest, so Thomas has become symptomatic of the mixed messages we got from Mick and the club. Unfortunately for Daisy, through no fault of his own, he is linked to the whole Malthouse tenure.

If Daisy is on $700k, and that is what Treloar is being offered, I know where I'd rather we spend the money.

Imo he was recruited because of his leadership. Something that has been lacking for a long time. Of course jt was more than that, it was his skills and gut running. Something that i anticipated returning this year. To say that he didnt suit our needs, completely ignores our leadership needs.

 

[zeeCFC]

I was discussing this elsewhere with a few others and I'll throw his name out there just for some discussion but I like James Sicily of Hawthorn.

He should be out of contract and starved of opportunity, has a few tricks and would fit in our forward line nicely with Menz and Dre.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Imo he was recruited because of his leadership. Something that has been lacking for a long time. Of course jt was more than that, it was his skills and gut running. Something that i anticipated returning this year. To say that he didnt suit our needs, completely ignores our leadership needs.

He was never going to walk into a side with Judd, Murphy, Simpson, Carrazzo and Gibbs and become a leader. I heard the notion that he was more vocal and the others more introverted so we needed a character but I can't say I saw him being overly vocal last year. The other notion was that he understood what Mick was trying to do with the game plan so could lead by example. Honestly, in all his time at Collingwood did you see Thomas as a leader? Or more than a leader than the aforementioned 5?

Regardless, none of this justifies his selection if Mick believed we had to do a full rebuild. That's my real point. Mick's protestations that he knew where we were at are not backed up by his recruiting wants and selection policies.

I believe Thomas was recruited to add class to a midfield that we believe could still challenge in finals. A small part of me still believes that midfield could challenge if they are 100% committed.

 

[HBF]

I was discussing this elsewhere with a few others and I'll throw his name out there just for some discussion but I like James Sicily of Hawthorn.

He should be out of contract and starved of opportunity, has a few tricks and would fit in our forward line nicely with Menz and Dre.

Would be opposed to that.
Gold Coast did that with Hallohan but he just can't get out on the park.

 

[El Topo]

I was discussing this elsewhere with a few others and I'll throw his name out there just for some discussion but I like James Sicily of Hawthorn.

He should be out of contract and starved of opportunity, has a few tricks and would fit in our forward line nicely with Menz and Dre.

This is Carlton, I'd be into him for the name alone.

 

[ESKIE]

His nick name has to Palermo

Love Sicily, the island that is

 

[JustaBattler]

There is that. If we remain at the bottom and take a long while to challenge then we do have to bring on the quality talls first so they are ready around the same time as quality mids taken after them in the draft. This finally says that we won't challenge with Murphy and Gibbs in the team however. Does take away the option of a fast rebuild. I kind of like keeping our options open as far as how many of our current list can contribute to a successful side. I do think we are not as bad as they would have us believe but are missing a handful of key ingredients. Where best to find those ingredients to take advantage of the ingredients we already have is what I have been pondering.

SOS should trade the part time playing entitled bludgers out for as good as he can get - until the pretenders are gone and accountability rules- the Club hasn't bottomed - cut the lazy indulgent fat out of the Club and build a young cohort over the next few years..forget contending focus on building the right culture. I dont want to go to the footy and watch Henderson/Yarran type BS anymore- it is an insult to their team mates and the Club supporters.

Where is our pride copping this crap week in week out from so called senior players? I say drop them to VFL for the remainder of the year or until they crawl over broken glass and commit to the Club properly. I dont get players dictating to the Club - get rid of them before they poison decent blokes like Docherty/Cripps/Buckley/Graham et al..they are the future not these malcontents.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

SOS should trade the part time playing entitled bludgers out for as good as he can get - until the pretenders are gone and accountability rules- the Club hasn't bottomed - cut the lazy indulgent fat out of the Club and build a young cohort over the next few years..forget contending focus on building the right culture. I dont want to go to the footy and watch Henderson/Yarran type BS anymore- it is an insult to their team mates and the Club supporters.

Where is our pride copping this crap week in week out from so called senior players? I say drop them to VFL for the remainder of the year or until they crawl over broken glass and commit to the Club properly. I dont get players dictating to the Club - get rid of them before they poison decent blokes like Docherty/Cripps/Buckley/Graham et al..they are the future not these malcontents.

Agreed. Laziness and petulance spreads and creates hopelessness in players that want to compete. We need Hendo, Yazz, Gibbs in particular to maintain intensity and desire week in, week out. If they can't, it's not simply a matter of accepting a reduced output from them. It's about what that does to the rest of the team. We will never get anywhere without 100% buy in. They had some excuse under a repressive, negative, one on one game plan that we weren't equipped for. No excuses right now as they have been given licence to play freely.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

If Carlisle and Henderson are standing side by side who is worth more (excluding wada implications)

Both are quality defenders and both are average forwards incapable of being the #1 forward target. Lachie prob has a few more runs on the board but Carlisle is 2 years younger...

 

[thylacine60]

Carlisle may have been a reluctant forward but fmd he played some memorable footy there.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Carlisle may have been a reluctant forward but fmd he played some memorable footy there.

Can say the same about Lachie, and all of those memorable games tend to be against weak opposition.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If Carlisle and Henderson are standing side by side who is worth more (excluding wada implications)

Both are quality defenders and both are average forwards incapable of being the #1 forward target. Lachie prob has a few more runs on the board but Carlisle is 2 years younger...

For me the stats are fairly negligible between these guys. It really comes down to consistency and intensity. They might both fall down on this point. It seems they can both be taken out of the game fairly easily. On that score, if Hendo wants to leave we might be better off chasing something else.

 

[The Bighouse]

Any chance of Hampson returning to the Blues as a backup ruckman if the Tiges don't re-sign him? Replaces Warnock. He definitely plays better as the #1 ruckman.

 

[THE_GUN]

Any chance of Hampson returning to the Blues as a backup ruckman if the Tiges don't re-sign him? Replaces Warnock. He definitely plays better as the #1 ruckman.

He has another year to run on his contract, But i would be more than happy to give him back to you for free as compensation for grigg/collins trade

If Carlisle and Henderson are standing side by side who is worth more (excluding wada implications)

Both are quality defenders and both are average forwards incapable of being the #1 forward target. Lachie prob has a few more runs on the board but Carlisle is 2 years younger...

As an outsider in my point of view and they were both the same cost - Carlisle by a mile
Much more upside and younger

 

[RiCHii]

Couldn't imagine Sydney trading Mitchell now as he has cemented his spot in their team. First 5 rounds I would have said he will be ours at the end of the year but he is currently in their best 22 and playing good football. If over the next couple of months that changes then maybe come end of the year he may want a change.
Perhaps he should also worry about those coming up through the ranks, surely in a year or 2 Isaac Heeney will edge him out and he may be back in the 2's running around picking up 100 disposals a game.


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[ItsAllAboutMe]

I agree Mitchell is unlikely, he has spent years on the fringes of a side challenging for flags he is not going to want to leave that and come to a side who are un a self proclaimed rebuild.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Ross Lyon is notorious for not giving themkids a chance, is anyone across the WAFL form of there under 23yos, there might be someone worth looking at who is sick of beng overlooked.

 

[bludrew79]

Couldn't imagine Sydney trading Mitchell now as he has cemented his spot in their team. First 5 rounds I would have said he will be ours at the end of the year but he is currently in their best 22 and playing good football. If over the next couple of months that changes then maybe come end of the year he may want a change.
Perhaps he should also worry about those coming up through the ranks, surely in a year or 2 Isaac Heeney will edge him out and he may be back in the 2's running around picking up 100 disposals a game.


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Without any open knowledge of the Sydney salary position...
Can they afford to keep him?

Heard during trade period he was on roughly $400kpa?

 

[ferrisb]

Mitchell in the team now and playing games, but they also have Heeney on the sidelines, Mills coming in this year and possibly Dunkley who offers them something different to their young midfield brigade. Not long before he's out again?