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- May 14, 2015
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So they go for players then. Moving forward effort needs to be non negotiable, you think these guys are giving it their all?
List Mgmt. 2015 LIST Discussion - trades, free agency etc
- Thread starter HARKER
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Agree re Jeff, my only regret is that we got so little in return. The indications are he wanted out but some people know more than me so i could be wrong. Yarran might be the one who wants to go as well.
On current output, if the rumoured figures are correct, Carlton probably shouldn't match that for Lachie.
Not interested in players who aren't interested.
Trade Yaz and Hendo for players we need.
Trade Yaz and Hendo for players we need.
The guys who have been told that they are expendable and have been put in the Carlton shop window with "For Sale to the highest bidder" signs around thier necks aren't giving their all? Shoot them I say.
So many levels to this.
No secret SOS wants multiple picks at the pointy end of the draft. We have to give up something to get them.
We are light on for midfield depth so logically the skipper and Gibbs are not on the table.
Our key position players are obviously all only serviceable. All have their good games or moments, but are
simply not bankable, so we need at least 3 in the short term. Watto's limitations and our contract situations
mean he is gone, Jones has been speculative and to date a failure, still has "potential", but will need a seriously
good coach to bring it out. Levi will play a part going forward, but is hardly the bloke to build an attack around.
Jammo and Rowey are supplying plenty of peaks, but more troughs. Jaksch, Giles and Foster all have "potential",
but need time and also some superior development/coaching.
KPP almost all take time. Weitering will likely be the exception. Schache was impressive in the NAB format, but
realistically had little to no pressure defensively. Will take time, so no quick fix. The natives are restless and the
fans impatient, not ideal for us.
Universally accepted that Hendo is a better defender than forward, we insist on playing him forward and have not
offered him a contract "competitive" with offers coming from elsewhere. I blamed MM, but Barker and co., have had
the chance to send him back and have not. Bluntly WTF? Does he have "flaws" prompting management to encourage
him to move on? The currency, a first round pick, is alluring, but he is the one man we could build a defence around.
Perhaps the prospect of Weitering being "generational" and good to go is playing a part. I suspect if we started to win
games and slip down the draft order, Lachie may have a better contract offered. While he is not feeling the love, he is
not giving the love, or the effort.
Yaz is another story. Always been more potential than performance, but did start to show some consistency and maturity
when he was "content" off field. Lost his amigos, and had to endure the MM way, which may have soured some
relationships. Now signs are that at least some of his team mates have lost confidence (eg. Buckley burning). He is not
showing his dash or the required level of commitment. Likely has fielded interest (I suspect Adelaide who would benefit
most from "good Yaz"). If he doesn't sh!t in his own nest over the next few weeks, a pick around 10 is on the cards.
Surely our "leaders" have been talking to Yaz, if he does not want to buy in, then best for all if he leaves. No use dwelling
on the possibility of him improving elsewhere. We are building and need all on the same page.
Weitering, another KPF (Curnow?) and a classy mid/high forward (would prefer genuine mid, but Ah Chee X-factor up forward
would be handy if the best are gone), with hopefully Rice (defender/OM with "elite" disposal) and SOSOS (skinny kid, hopefully
with a few cm to grow, with some great cameos and pedigree) being gettable with our 3rd and 4th rounders would be
spectacular. Project ruck and/or small forward late or rookie, with Korcheck and maybe another Irish lad Cat. B.
Do we trade for any exposed talent? Only if top end or cheap. Treloar....dream, Aish........maybe, Carlisle........only if PSD.
No more fringe/role players please, Jones, Tutt, Dick, even Andrejs is limited (read soft.....if he played to size and ability, we
would have a kpf).
And this is the thing. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who'd want an apathetic player on the list. It is just too difficult to know what's going on unless you're closely involved. But if the trades make us a better CLUB then i'm all for it. Of course, different people will see different things.
Careful, apparently if you want to trade Yaz and/or Hendo you are a hater.
There are sensible reasons why you trade players and there are plenty regarding these two, the most important being that they have currency.
No need to assassinate their characters because they are out of form, a situation which could well be related to the fact that they are up for trade, especially Hendo who reportedly wanted to captain the club.
I've never assassinated either character, and nor have quite a few people who think that trading one or both would be beneficial to the club. The problem is that no one calls people out by quoting or naming the posters with whom they have a problem, they just make blanket statements.
Realistically, two months ago most of us were saying there are only 3-4 must haves on the list. Nothing has changed. The rest are all up for grabs for the right price IMO.
I assume you are talking about a post of mine re hate for those two players. If so, my response is that it is pretty clear when criticism of players is snide, personal, and mean spirited and there have been plenty of those. I can't be bothered singling them out.
For the record, I don't think Shan's comment was hateful. Whereas this from JAB is.
No point whatsoever in getting into an argument with him. It just encourages him.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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Way more than he is worth to any other team given our dearth of talls.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there is a line between advocating for a trade based on the benefit to the club and using a possible trade as an excuse to badmouth a player.
However, it seems like lately people can't win. I'm not directing this at your post, but it's kind of damned if you do want someone to be traded and damned if you don't.
- Thread starter
- #4,790
That's because that's what came out from the club.
Casting out "We're going into re-build mode" wasn't a smart starting point after two games.
Blaming players is easy enough and some may well deserve the vitriol spewed upon them, but the CFC again showed themselves to be ignorant and even rather foolish by allowing.......and even promoting us going full re-build and then alluding that everyone is one the table..........only to have to back-track on their bravado.............oooooops.
Lots of things have gone wrong for the CFC this year but we can be our own worst enemy at times.
- Thread starter
- #4,791
Why aren't Yarran & Henderson interested?
Yarran was very interested last year and Henderson was deservedly put into the leadership group this year, but now they don't care? Why?
What has brought a situation where they don't care for us but they'll care for another club?
That's the question that warrants an answer.............................and we can't even blame Malthouse any more. So who's to blame?
Obvious benchmarks are Hale and Tippett:
Kurt Tippett
#8 Sydney Swans
Age: 28yr 2mth Games: 144 Born: May 8, 1987
Height: 201cm Weight: 105kg Position: Forward
Last Drafted: Round 1, Pick #11 2012 Pre-Season Draft
Last Drafted By: Sydney Swans
Supercoach Price: $427,300 Supercoach Profile
AFL Fantasy Price: $375,000 AFL Fantasy Profile
Season 2015 Totals/Averages
GM K HB D M G B T HO FF FA AF * SC *
Total 14 6.9 65 134 45 25 9 39 220 20 21 964 1,084
Average 14 4.9 4.6 9.6 3.2 1.8 0.6 2.8 15.7 1.4 1.5 68.9 77.4
David Hale
#20 Hawthorn Hawks
Age: 31yr 1mth Games: 228 Born: May 22, 1984
Height: 201cm Weight: 102kg Position: Forward, Ruck
Last Drafted: Round 1, Pick #7 2001 National Draft
Last Drafted By: North Melbourne Kangaroos
Supercoach Price
: $337,600 Supercoach ProfileAFL Fantasy Price: $336,000 AFL Fantasy Profile
Season 2015 Totals/Averages
GM K HB D M G B T HO FF FA AF * SC *
Total 9 29 56 85 21 9 3 24 173 9 12 561 638
Average 9 3.2 6.2 9.4 2.3 1.0 0.3 2.7 19.2 1.0 1.3 62.3 70.9
Levi Casboult
#41 Carlton Blues
Age: 25yr 4mth Games: 49 Born: March 15, 1990
Height: 199cm Weight: 103kg Position: Forward
Last Drafted: Round 5, Pick #89 2012 National Draft
Last Drafted By: Carlton Blues
Supercoach Price: $303,200 Supercoach Profile
AFL Fantasy Price: $322,000 AFL Fantasy Profile
Season 2015 Totals/Averages
GM K HB D M G B T HO FF FA AF * SC *
Total 13 82 41 123 70 20 12 15 72 6 5 793 850
Average 13 6.3 3.2 9.5 5.4 1.5 0.9 1.2 5.5 0.5 0.4 61.0 65.4
Cas is the youngest and least experienced. Cas per game gets similar disposals, more marks, more GOALS/behinds than Hale, the same number of scoring shots as Tippett, BUT Cas makes less tackles, less hitouts, less Points. Cas also has a positive FF/FA. However Tippett and Hale gets silver service up front, working in conjunction with Buddy/Roughhead (two of the best KF's in the Game). Casboult has another 100 games if managed right and will become more than handy if he keeps kicking well and gets a good FF to take the oppositions best KD player (or two). Almost a must keep for our structure and to protect the kids we are developing, Just need a quality KF to help him out.
Value = something really good (Hale (#7) and Tippett (Adelaide trade) were first round picks and Cas is now coming to his peak years and has shown ability) !
it made us look amateurish and shambolic, why didn't they recognise this at the end of last season and trade accordingly? To talk of a rebuild after round 2 made this year feel like a year wasted.
No problem with recruiting Jaksch, Whiley and Boek as such, but getting retreads like Liam Jones and Jason Tutt does not a rebuild make.
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- Thread starter
- #4,794
So the board ticked off on what we were doing last year and two games into the season they call "RE-BUILD"
Not going to set out to have another shot at the board at length, but lots of things have gone askew because of them.
Malthouse is an easy target but he wasn't wrong when he said in April, that the players are confused.............and it's not just about them feeling confused it's about them feeling as though they're not wanted, nor respected.
I know some will say that this isn't what they set out to do but it wouldn't come about at a professionally run club. It wouldn't be allowed.
Anyway, the point was that you chip away a little bit of confidence here, treat players with a little contempt there and it can come through on the other side.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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- #4,795
I have to disagree that we only had 3-4 players on our keep list earlier in the season because the club announced we were rebuilding. It was because of the way they were performing, how bad we looked, how directionless, how poor our skills were, little light apparent at the end of the tunnel. If we were performing competively with a host of players showing future prospects and the club announced a rebuild, would our retain list be 3-4 players or more?
- Thread starter
- #4,796
Let's just say that SOS created a lot of waves where no waves needed to be created whether by one of many sneaky leakers we have at the club or by design
We didn't do ourselves any service for the internal turmoil we had going, well before the first game of the year.
I couldn't give a **** what MLG, SOS, Trigg or any other suit for that matter thinks about player A or player B.
Just do the job you need to do and allow the football department to deal with what they have to do, without putting undue pressures upon them.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
- Moderator
- #4,797
So the board ticked off on what we were doing last year and two games into the season they call "RE-BUILD"
Not going to set out to have another shot at the board at length, but lots of things have gone askew because of them.
Malthouse is an easy target but he wasn't wrong when he said in April, that the players are confused.............and it's not just about them feeling confused it's about them feeling as though they're not wanted, nor respected.
I know some will say that this isn't what they set out to do but it wouldn't come about at a professionally run club. It wouldn't be allowed.
Anyway, the point was that you chip away a little bit of confidence here, treat players with a little contempt there and it can come through on the other side.
I firmly believe they tried to take pressure away from the team with that announcement. If we weren't rebuilding, what on earth was Mick doing with the team?
Look at the flipside, we're not rebuilding at least as far as the supporters know but we were performing abysmally with no discernable change in personnel or tactics. I have to say this is what infuriated me the most at the time. Same ugly unwatchable football, same players being selected, in form VFL players being ignored. I mean, give me something to hang my hat on.
We announced the rebuild and most here went 'good ... we said it' and Mick fans started pushing for him to be re-signed because of his rebuild track record. It was even a circuit breaker for those worried about Mick.
What were the public to think back then? Not rebuilding, just shit and don't care? Who felt safe in their career with that festering? The rebuild talk didn't hurt the players any more than their own performances were.
Nah, it has only become a terrible thing because Mick lost his job and smashed the club about the rebuild talk before he walked out. We smash the club about the terrible board culture and their messiah culture and then we smash the board because we want to believe every word one of those messiahs utters as he loses his job.
As to the depth of the rebuild. I never heard it mentioned. We, the supporters speculated on that. The media speculated on that. The rebuild could simply be hitting the draft, trying to obtain 4 top 20 picks and playing the kids. We are the ones that assumed the whole list was getting turned over.
I also disagree that the board ticked off on what we were doing last year. We finished strongly and Judd was confident. Reckon they were thinking a step back to go forward and did exactly what you wanted them to do ... let the baker bake the bread. Cue new season and it doesn't look like anything had changed and Mick himself had spoken to them about rebuilding ... we were looking for a pressure valve.
I don't agree that a full rebuild was ever necessary and didn't like the mixed messages but in hindsight we attributed many of our expectations to what they said when we filled in the gaps ourselves.
I think plenty said, good we said it, but added why the hell didn't we say it at end of season 2014 instead of 2 rounds into 2015
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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- #4,799
SOS was paid to come in and do a job. If he has to crack a few eggs to do it, then so be it. You again allude to things as fact and I know you talk to a few posters who know somebody who knows something. I say again ... one side of the story from a disgruntled employee does not a fact make. It's a perspective. People need to stop weeping for the dearly departed and get back behind the club.
When Ratten went, I think you were of the opinion he was difficult to deal with and we had to back the club. Now your feedback is geared towards those that were wronged and bagging the club at every opportunity. Do you think you are constructively helping the club improve by providing one side of an industrial dispute?
Yes, powerbrokers are a problem. They should keep their opinions to themselves. This does not necessarily mean they are always wrong in the opinions they express.
As for football departments who don't want pressure. Clearly express your vision, report back as to how that vision is progressing and honestly ... hit a few ****ing KPIs once in a while. You are paid to do a job, not continually reset the parameters each time things don't go as expected. Into a 3rd season and regressed so badly, there were virtually no positives ... yeah, there's pressure. Of course there is.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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- #4,800
Because that is not the vision being sold to the non-football board by the precious football department. Nothing about our recruiting said big rebuild. Judd was excited, Mick was excited. This is not where the football people expected us to be.
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