Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[bergholt]

Fox doesn't even send callers to grounds for interstate games they do it off a TV in studio

Their coverage really declined post covid

Honestly don't think I can tell the difference between callers in a studio or in a box at the ground

 

[gringo2011]

Bell wanted to hold onto a player who at the time was playing at a much higher level than he is now. It's easy to say we shouldn't have gone after him in hindsight, and on that I don't even think it was a failure either. Hill's been decent but not the type of player that we had hoped. Not a complete catastrophe and it doesn't take much to look back on that period and how over the moon everyone was about bringing him to the club. Half the reason we packed out Moorabbin against the Hawks in the pre-season was to watch him.

Can guarantee if we had stuck with Acres instead then the club still would've been criticised.

When Bell kept upping the cost we should have walked. He was like us trading Seb Ross for pick 10 and 58, a future second rounder, a future 4th rounder and Connor Blakeley. As soon as they said 10 wasn't enough we should have threatened to walk. When we offered a future 4th as well we should have physically left the room and told them to **** off. He'd come off a series of premierships and they paid a single pick 23 for triple premiership star that was 23yo.

If we hadn't picked him up we probably too busy fapping about Serong or Pickett to care about him.

 

[gringo2011]

Agreed all round. It was a unique set of circumstances.

It wasn't, we played it out before we'd done the deal so put ourselves in a poor position but we could have walked away. Gags may very well lose his job after this review. He buys very very high and sells low and hasn't upgraded the list that much for all the work he's done. This is another example of a guy who apart from having BF fan boys he's pretty poor at his role. Keeping under performers is how you stay shit.

 

[Yawkey way]

Don't be such a doubter , as someone who has spent a fair bit of time on Anti Inflammatory drugs I can tell you they are way more effective if you crush them up and sniff them up your snout

So I’m taking mine all wrong.

 

[phantom13]

It wasn't, we played it out before we'd done the deal so put ourselves in a poor position but we could have walked away. Gags may very well lose his job after this review. He buys very very high and sells low and hasn't upgraded the list that much for all the work he's done. This is another example of a guy who apart from having BF fan boys he's pretty poor at his role. Keeping under performers is how you stay s**t.

Well the fact that we were so pot comitted in the throes of ousting the coach on a player who didn’t suit the new guys needs is pretty unique.
I didn’t say it was a good decision nor did I defend it, just said it was unique. As you note we could have walked away but we would have done some reputational damage most likely, I can’t think of a trace instance before Hill where that would have been true (and now it’s become more common).

So sure it’s bad but it was unique.

 

[George]

When Bell kept upping the cost we should have walked. He was like us trading Seb Ross for pick 10 and 58, a future second rounder, a future 4th rounder and Connor Blakeley. As soon as they said 10 wasn't enough we should have threatened to walk. When we offered a future 4th as well we should have physically left the room and told them to * off. He'd come off a series of premierships and they paid a single pick 23 for triple premiership star that was 23yo.

If we hadn't picked him up we probably too busy fapping about Serong or Pickett to care about him.

There may have been a little bit of talk about walking away but the sentiment from a majority of people was that Hill had qualities that we needed and we needed to bring good players into the club. I think it's unfair to hold them to account for that. If we had walked away and kept Acres the same folk would be criticising the club for sitting on their hands.

 

[George]

It wasn't, we played it out before we'd done the deal so put ourselves in a poor position but we could have walked away. Gags may very well lose his job after this review. He buys very very high and sells low and hasn't upgraded the list that much for all the work he's done. This is another example of a guy who apart from having BF fan boys he's pretty poor at his role. Keeping under performers is how you stay s**t.

Yet you’ve said it's the coaching that's holding us back and that the list is good enough.

 

[Yawkey way]

I think there is a degree of truth to it.

If you commit to a player and draw up a contract etc etc. and then fail to get a deal done for said player it can reflect poorly but it really depends on the player.

If we didnt get Xerri done for example i doubt anyone cares, but if we didnt get DeGoey done (and wed been VERY VERY public about wanting him) then not getting it done probably makes other big free agents a bit cautious.

We were pretty close to being that on Hill, big deal, big dollars, public comittment if we backed down it wouldnt have looked great.

Imagine if Carlton walked away from Judd (the most extreme example possible).

This old chestnut is used to justify our poor trading and it’s just dead wrong. When 1 club commits to a player it’s always clearly done with the proviso that there are limits. You can’t force a club to trade a contracted player, for example Dunkley.

Essendon couldn't get it done, some bitterness all round but that’s life. The commitment is also made with a clear understanding that the deal must make sense to the club acquiring the player, oh that will be three first round picks. Clearly that’s crazy and you walk away.

We had no problem ghosting Caldwell and his manager after the kid was saying he was a saint, so which is it. No what happened with hill is Fremantle and bell thought here comes a complete rube let’s drain them for every last drop and they did. We were so far into our delusion that hill was going to make them look good and improve the team that they forgot the number 1 rule, remember your walk away point.

The really great news is the same idiots are still there, yep architects of the hill and Hannebery trades and they’ve been promoted. Clubs in any code who are poorly run and poorly coached never succeed, it’s the rock on which great periods of success are built.

 

[Yawkey way]

There may have been a little bit of talk about walking away but the sentiment from a majority of people was that Hill had qualities that we needed and we needed to bring good players into the club. I think it's unfair to hold them to account for that. If we had walked away and kept Acres the same folk would be criticising the club for sitting on their hands.

Unfair to hold professionals to account for doing a poor job. Come on please, if we were talking about another club having traded for Hannebery and hill on those terms with the results we’ve had we would tear strips off them.

 

[George]

Unfair to hold professionals to account for doing a poor job. Come on please, if we were talking about another club having traded for Hannebery and hill on those terms with the results we’ve had we would tear strips of them.

It's absolutely unfair to hold them to account for Hill not working out. It's not Gallaghers job to get the best out of Hill, it's the coaches. It hasn't worked out as we would've hoped, Hill has been decent but not fantastic, but at the time the overall feeling was that we had improved the list by bringing him in.

Hanners is their fault absolutely, the warning signs were there before he came to us.

Gags stuffed up with the help of Lethers on the Hannebery deal but he must be doing something right if some are saying we have a list that can challenge but it's our system holding us back.

 

[Yawkey way]

It's absolutely unfair to hold them to account for Hill not working out. It's not Gallaghers job to get the best out of Hill, it's the coaches. It hasn't worked out as we would've hoped, Hill has been decent but not fantastic, but at the time the overall feeling was that we had improved the list by bringing him in.

Hanners is their fault absolutely, the warning signs were there before he came to us.

Overpaid badly, stupid deal which I hated and ranted about for god knows how long. Let me see a guy so outside he should be charged admission he spends so much time watching others play. Then we pay way more for the older less effective model than Fremantle did to acquire him and throw in acres like a free drink and Gallagher has nothing to answer for .

 

[George]

Overpaid badly, stupid deal which I hated and ranted about for god knows how long. Let me see a guy so outside he should be charged admission he spends so much time watching others play. Then we pay way more for the older less effective model than Fremantle did to acquire him and throw in acres like a free drink and Gallagher has nothing to answer for .

I'm critical of the amount we gave him too but I mentioned before the general principle to bring players into your club through trade is to overpay. Not 900k but to overpay nonetheless. Not to mention we actually had to spend the money somewhere and so it's better to bring in players than to pay more to the existing ones, right?

Hill hasn't worked as we would've hoped because of the coaches inability to put him in a position to do so and/or Hill's application to his profession. That's got nothing to do with James Gallagher. At the time most saw it as us having improved the list. Acres was inconsistent throughout his career and Hill's output at the time was far more damaging than it is now.

It hasn't been anywhere near the disaster that Hannebery was, which I hope they have to answer for in the review.

 

[phantom13]

This old chestnut is used to justify our poor trading and it’s just dead wrong. When 1 club commits to a player it’s always clearly done with the proviso that there are limits. You can’t force a club to trade a contracted player, for example Dunkley.

Essendon couldn't get it done, some bitterness all round but that’s life. The commitment is also made with a clear understanding that the deal must make sense to the club acquiring the player, oh that will be three first round picks. Clearly that’s crazy and you walk away.

We had no problem ghosting Caldwell and his manager after the kid was saying he was a saint, so which is it. No what happened with hill is Fremantle and bell thought here comes a complete rube let’s drain them for every last drop and they did. We were so far into our delusion that hill was going to make them look good and improve the team that they forgot the number 1 rule, remember your walk away point.

The really great news is the same idiots are still there, yep architects of the hill and Hannebery trades and they’ve been promoted. Clubs in any code who are poorly run and poorly coached never succeed, it’s the rock on which great periods of success are built.

Read my follow up post.

Youre implying this is a simple yes/no binary and it’s not (and I never implied it was).

Dependent on a whole bunch of factors (the “standing” of the player, the money and length of contract, the level of public commitment to the player) a club CAN look a bit silly and might impact their ability to land other big name players if they can’t get a deal done. Brad had some of those factors at play when we traded for him (we were very oublically comitted to a long term lucrative deal) but I doubt it would have impacted us too much to walk away.

Caldwell wasnt as public nor as big a contract deal. Im not justifying anything, ive made it clear it wasnt a great decision in hindsight (FWIW ive never rated Hill as a player and was filthy at the time as well) but youre still doing the 1/1 argument. Its a whole host of stuff that can damage a clubs rep, us walking away from Hill might not have been an issue but it also might have, given he ticks a bunch of the boxes for the damage checklist i can see why they went through with it. Thats not me defending or supporting the decision, simply noting there were some compounding factors.

 

[CaptainRisky]

So I’m taking mine all wrong.

Its just amazing how stupid the bloke is , thinking anyone would believe that you crush up anti inflammatory's .

 

[George]

I stick them up my arse for immediate and prolonged effect

 

[Yawkey way]

Read my follow up post.



Caldwell wasnt as public nor as big a contract deal. Im not justifying anything, ive made it clear it wasnt a great decision in hindsight (FWIW ive never rated Hill as a player and was filthy at the time as well) but youre still doing the 1/1 argument. Its a whole host of stuff that can damage a clubs rep, us walking away from Hill might not have been an issue but it also might have, given he ticks a bunch of the boxes for the damage checklist i can see why they went through with it. Thats not me defending or supporting the decision, simply noting there were some compounding factors.

Bell looked unreasonable, that’s the point we should have walked. Anyway it’s done but here we are people have been promoted and a review is underway. As far as I’m concerned we need to hit the draft has hard as possible this year along with a couple of bargain bin pick ups that should be it this year.

Lets see how that plays out next season. We have some justification to be up beat but at least we’ll be adding more quality youth without any arse covering recruits.

 

[phantom13]

Its just amazing how stupid the bloke is , thinking anyone would believe that you crush up anti inflammatory's .

Even if hes telling the truth (and thats a big ****ing if) why would you take it in a baggie to a casino.

He even acknowledged it wasnt a great look...

Moronic all round.

 

[George]

As far as I’m concerned we need to hit the draft has hard as possible this year along with a couple of bargain bin pick ups that should be it this year.

100%, sick of toppng up. We need a core group of young guys coming through together, IMO will create a sustainable culture.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

“Garbage”…..wow.
Pretty compelling debating skills

Based on the theories i'm hearing here, if Essendon have told Bytel they want him, we can ask for 10 first round picks and they need to cough up or they have let him down, and no-one will ever go to Essendon again.

Exaggerated but principle remains.

We were too stupid to say no.

The whole thing is like an old Kenny Rogers song.
You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I stick them up my arse for immediate and prolonged effect

Don't even joke about that as its true , been there done that

 

[Yawkey way]

100%, sick of toppng up. We need a core group of young guys coming through together, IMO will create a sustainable culture.

If in danger or in doubt go local, dragons, stingrays and chargers or country as they have no affiliation. Sick of the constant drama with go home players so steering well clear of WA. Also you get that tight knit core all from the local area, all living within spitting distance just makes it that much easier to sell that vision we had with Lenny, roo and co.

 

[phantom13]

Bell looked unreasonable, that’s the point we should have walked. Anyway it’s done but here we are people have been promoted and a review is underway. As far as I’m concerned we need to hit the draft has hard as possible this year along with a couple of bargain bin pick ups that should be it this year.

Lets see how that plays out next season. We have some justification to be up beat but at least we’ll be adding more quality youth without any arse covering recruits.

Sure but Bell had the whip hand and could be unreasonable. He had the contracted player, we had promised the world and if we missed then the next big FA/Fish might go "Well the saints couldnt get Hill done and left him there... not nominating them". Again, this isnt a defence, im not defending anyone, just pointing out the unique circumstances. The other factor is were St.Kilda, not Collingwood/Richmond etc. We dont have alot of other appeal so loyalty and comittment needs to be part of our brand.

Anyway, i completely agree on the draft, which is why ive said our only targets from other clubs need to be FA's. Still wanted Degoey.

If we managed to land Degoey and netted the PP for North for the Hill trade id have declared our trade/draft period an immense success. Looking more and more likely we dont get DeGoey and we take pick 60 for Hill.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Even if hes telling the truth (and thats a big ******* if) why would you take it in a baggie to a casino.

He even acknowledged it wasnt a great look...

Moronic all round.

He was totally busted, and his defence is essentially a way of him saying " you can't prove its what everyone knows it is".

 

[Yawkey way]

Sure but Bell had the whip hand and could be unreasonable. He had the contracted player, we had promised the world and if we missed then the next big FA/Fish might go "Well the saints couldnt get Hill done and left him there... not nominating them". Again, this isnt a defence, im not defending anyone, just pointing out the unique circumstances. The other factor is were St.Kilda, not Collingwood/Richmond etc. We dont have alot of other appeal so loyalty and comittment needs to be part of our brand.

Anyway, i completely agree on the draft, which is why ive said our only targets from other clubs need to be FA's. Still wanted Degoey.

If we managed to land Degoey and netted the PP for North for the Hill trade id have declared our trade/draft period an immense success. Looking more and more likely we dont get DeGoey and we take pick 60 for Hill.

I hear this all the time and imo it’s fantasy land. Hill isn’t a big name, bell was unreasonable and players go for success and money. Forget the background stories this is a business and we need to realise that or continue to founder.

You know we can’t compete on the level of collingwood/richmond for crowds etc so we need to be a club that nails draft and development. Where is the investment in that, no we‘re still looking for someone else‘s cast offs or head cases. Once we have that core and look like a finals team then you might load up.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Sure but Bell had the whip hand and could be unreasonable. He had the contracted player, we had promised the world and if we missed then the next big FA/Fish might go "Well the saints couldnt get Hill done and left him there... not nominating them". Again, this isnt a defence, im not defending anyone, just pointing out the unique circumstances. The other factor is were St.Kilda, not Collingwood/Richmond etc. We dont have alot of other appeal so loyalty and comittment needs to be part of our brand.

Anyway, i completely agree on the draft, which is why ive said our only targets from other clubs need to be FA's. Still wanted Degoey.

If we managed to land Degoey and netted the PP for North for the Hill trade id have declared our trade/draft period an immense success. Looking more and more likely we dont get DeGoey and we take pick 60 for Hill.

Oh well , at least we can make Collingwood pay overs for him.