Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[Winmar2Lockett]

One of his followers was in the replies pointing out the hypocrisy of the ABC investigating Alastair Clarkson but not investigating Daniel Andrews.

It was about that point I decided it was better for my mental health to close that tab

Haha whats his handle? Need to follow this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SaintsSeptember]

'Deeply distressed' Fagan denies Hawks racism allegations

Brisbane coach Chris Fagan categorically denies the allegations of mistreatment of Hawthorn's Indigenous players during his time at the club

www.afl.com.au

Categoric denials now from both. Gonna get messy. They will look even worse if the allegations are proven to be true /substantiated.

I'm thinking there will be partial truths and a lot of context.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I reckon the players in question were probably new and young and culturally different and so had minimal close relationships with the other players.

15 years or so ago I knew a guy who ended up on a rookie list at another club (not Hawthorn or Saints), lasted a couple of years but never played a game. He said in that dressing room there were about four or five different "tiers" of player. He reckoned some of the better players would barely have known his name, and they were the private school alphas that ran the place, so everyone wanted to be in their cool group. I remember he became mates with one of the other rookies (who also didn't make it) and basically they ended up with zero relationships with any of the other players from that time.

No idea if the Hawks dressing room was like that, but I suspect if you're an introverted 18 year old who sneaks onto the bottom end of the list of 45, might be no-one ever talks to you enough to find out that some bad s**t is happening.

The Hawks had a guy who couldn't speak english on their list at one time i think. Imagine the culture shock.

Amos Frank leaves Hawks after short but incredible journey

Both Hawthorn and Amos Frank are better for having known each other

www.afl.com.au

It seemed at the time he was fairly well looked after, and i don't suggest for a minute he's one of the report subjects ( though i can't say he's not ).

 

[phantom13]

I don't think anyone is implying that at all, maybe you've misinterpreted the discussion. I don't want to speak for jwikked but perhaps he is saying that if this was happening to non-indigenous players it's more of a *ed policy than a targeting of a specific race.

Yeh but it very obviously has racist connotations.

Even if it wasn’t targeted at only indigenous players they feel it has racist overtones because of their generational trauma.

Racism isn’t determined by the perpetrators but the victims, it also came out in a review into racism at the club so…

Hodge was saying something on SEN yesterday about how players have discussions about toxic relationships and that helping the player to separate from a partner can be good for them. I think you are right in that it's coming from one player who has most likely been bullied. At the moment it looks hideous but hopefully this investigation can shed some light on it. Either way I can't see how Clarkson and Fagan continue in the industry. Depends how much of it is true but the work to gain respect back from here for both of them is enormous.

The article cited 3 seperate players (and partners) so it’s not just one guy.

This reads a lot like a “context and probably some is made up” defence.

 

[phantom13]

I can’t imagine being a person who read that article. Finished it and then went “yeh I reckon that’s all just a misunderstanding and with a bit of context a coach telling a footy player to have his missus get an abortion will make a lot of sense”.

 

[StFly]

Gil on 360 running with the "we dunno, it was a hawks thing" line and distance that they had no idea and nothing to do with it.

Commission give a damn about clubs at all? Any oversight? Any at all in governance...

 

[dudeintheswamp]

Pretty odd at the selection table from the Swans you'd have to say. Naming Reid but then dropping McDonald for McLean. Now McDonald was pretty quiet last week but obviously the team's done well this season and McLean hasn't played in the big time since round eight.

I guess there's every chance Reid is a late out. And I agree with some posts above, should look at prying Amartey outa there.

 

[George]

Yeh but it very obviously has racist connotations.

Even if it wasn’t targeted at only indigenous players they feel it has racist overtones because of their generational trauma.

Racism isn’t determined by the perpetrators but the victims, it also came out in a review into racism at the club so…



The article cited 3 seperate players (and partners) so it’s not just one guy.

This reads a lot like a “context and probably some is made up” defence.

Think you are looking for something I am saying that I'm not. Quite clearly and consistently said how horrible this is if it's true.

I can’t imagine being a person who read that article. Finished it and then went “yeh I reckon that’s all just a misunderstanding and with a bit of context a coach telling a footy player to have his missus get an abortion will make a lot of sense”.

There's interest in the story and people want to see how it plays out. That's it. Gil spoke really well on it on 360 last night and echoes my thoughts completely. With all due respect I think your comments aren't needed and only serve the purpose of instigating an argument. I'm not here for that. Cheers

 

[pebblesofsand]

Yeh but it very obviously has racist connotations.

Even if it wasn’t targeted at only indigenous players they feel it has racist overtones because of their generational trauma.

Racism isn’t determined by the perpetrators but the victims, it also came out in a review into racism at the club so…



The article cited 3 seperate players (and partners) so it’s not just one guy.

This reads a lot like a “context and probably some is made up” defence.

"Racism isn’t determined by the perpetrators but the victims,"

Very true, but the response needs to be commensurate with the intent.

Casual racism is a very different beastie to institutionalised racism and needs a completely different response.

I don't pretend to have any idea what happened at Hawthorn and the circumstances under which the events occurred, but if some/most of what occurred was because of a lack of awareness by the parties of the impacts of "intergenerational trauma" then education is the answer not a public hanging.

 

[phantom13]

"Racism isn’t determined by the perpetrators but the victims,"

Very true, but the response needs to be commensurate with the intent.

Casual racism is a very different beastie to institutionalised racism and needs a completely different response.

I don't pretend to have any idea what happened at Hawthorn and the circumstances under which the events occurred, but if some/most of what occurred was because of a lack of awareness by the parties of the impacts of "intergenerational trauma" then education is the answer not a public hanging.

I suspect this is just an “agree to disagree” situation but there’s really two things that matter in this situation.

The action itself and then the racism of said action.

One can argue the “level” of racism is important to the punishment or education and that’s fair. Perhaps Clarkson et all. we’re unaware or uneducated about how this is a racist action and that educating them is a better course of action for that part of the saga and that has vailidity but…

The action itself (encouraging young already isolated men to push an abortion on their partners and further distance them from their families) is absolutely ****ing deplorable. That’s not educate that’s punish, severely.

I don’t buy the lack of awareness of the implicit racism personally and again, victims really get to decide whether there is validity in that claim not the perpetrators but we’re also not talking about a nickname or a passing comment. These guys knew what they were doing, why they were doing it and the trauma they were causing.

Clarkson and pretty much anyone involved in this shouldn’t be allowed near a footballing or any club in any form of leadership ever again and if the allegations turn out to be completely false I’ll happily eat my words but if they are true then context here isn’t important, there’s no context in the world where this is reasonable.

 

[phantom13]

Think you are looking for something I am saying that I'm not. Quite clearly and consistently said how horrible this is if it's true.


There's interest in the story and people want to see how it plays out. That's it. Gil spoke really well on it on 360 last night and echoes my thoughts completely. With all due respect I think your comments aren't needed and only serve the purpose of instigating an argument. I'm not here for that. Cheers

Fair enough. I’m happy to admit I may have misinterpreted you. You clearly referenced that this might all be one player who was bullied and that implied the whole thing could be a misunderstanding.

It definitely wasn’t one player, the stories provided came directly (mostly as direct quotes) from three seperate players and their partners and they provided plenty of context for their stories.

There are plenty of people desperate to defend Clarkson and co here (not saying that you are) by trying to say we don’t have “context” and that we need to hear the other side. I take issue with that.

If in the course of the investigation it comes out that nearly all these claims were completely fabricated then absolutely, clarkson and co deserve an apology and I’ll happily give it but playing in the margins to defend the claims is pathetic (again, no implying you’re doing that)

 

[George]

Fair enough. I’m happy to admit I may have misinterpreted you. You clearly referenced that this might all be one player who was bullied and that implied the whole thing could be a misunderstanding.

It definitely wasn’t one player, the stories provided came directly (mostly as direct quotes) from three seperate players and their partners and they provided plenty of context for their stories.

There are plenty of people desperate to defend Clarkson and co here (not saying that you are) by trying to say we don’t have “context” and that we need to hear the other side. I take issue with that.

If in the course of the investigation it comes out that nearly all these claims were completely fabricated then absolutely, clarkson and co deserve an apology and I’ll happily give it but playing in the margins to defend the claims is pathetic (again, no implying you’re doing that)

All good. Yeah that's my bad, I couldn't get through the entire article and honestly thought it was one player (I think I quoted gringo's post who said it was one player so just took his word for it) - but I watched Gil's presser yesterday and now know it was three. From reading what I could of the article it referenced Ian and Amy, that's all I took from it in terms of who provided their story.

I'm just intrigued to see how they defend themselves but also want to see what comes of the investigation - how much of it was true, was it actually worse than it was made out initially, are others involved, etc. I'm also interested to see if this was communicated to non-indigenous players as well, if it was a whole of club thing or a select few. Without the other side of the story I can absolutely see how some would want to hear that before passing judgement as opposed to believing it on face value. And another reason for me wanting to know extra details is because our club could be involved.

Personally I think it's true because of the detail provided and now that's backed by more than one source however ultimately I think it's unfair if the other side hasn't had their say. It's up to them now to provide a defence. I don't think they can do it but I want to see.

 

[phantom13]

Might be the first amicable resolution of an argument in big footy history George ?

History made on the saints board

 

[George]

Might be the first amicable resolution of an argument in big footy history George ?

History made on the saints board

F*ck off

 

[BigMonty]

Hi gents whilst I love the Kumbaya moment. You have focussed on the Racist bit which is great bit do not overlook the Modern Slavery aspect to this.

As it quite recent last 6 years no one has really latched onto this as it is not in mainstream thinking...as yet.

Let's say we are fathers and our son comes home with a girlfriend (both white middle class...shouldn't matter though) she is early stage pregnancy he is in 3rd year Medicine. They want to get married and start a family. He is living in an apartment with her in a shady part of town....as that is all they can afford.

You and your wife are initially shocked and then you talk about it and come out with...Son you come home live we us, your studies and future career are far more important at this stage of your life.

You young girl here is the number for a clinic that will help you out and oh we are there for you afterwards and also we have changed sons phone number as we do not want you calling him but please stay in touch and tell us how you went.

This is distressing for you girl and we are here for you as your parents live in Perth.

I can imagine this happening and you both nodding you heads in agreement.....yeah nah.

Clear Fiduciary Duty failure by Hawthorn Clarko and Fagan lack of duty of care etc.

They all have a lot to answer for despite them thinking they were doing the right thing...most ignorant people do



On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saint Kidding]

I reckon the players in question were probably new and young and culturally different and so had minimal close relationships with the other players.

15 years or so ago I knew a guy who ended up on a rookie list at another club (not Hawthorn or Saints), lasted a couple of years but never played a game. He said in that dressing room there were about four or five different "tiers" of player. He reckoned some of the better players would barely have known his name, and they were the private school alphas that ran the place, so everyone wanted to be in their cool group. I remember he became mates with one of the other rookies (who also didn't make it) and basically they ended up with zero relationships with any of the other players from that time.

No idea if the Hawks dressing room was like that, but I suspect if you're an introverted 18 year old who sneaks onto the bottom end of the list of 45, might be no-one ever talks to you enough to find out that some bad s**t is happening.

I think you are on the money here. The second player example used in the article seemed to suggest that Clarkson had an issue with the young bloke having quiet evenings in with his partner. I think that didn't fit with the team dynamic he was looking for.

 

[StFly]

Hi gents whilst I love the Kumbaya moment. You have focussed on the Racist bit which is great bit do not overlook the Modern Slavery aspect to this.

As it quite recent last 6 years no one has really latched onto this as it is not in mainstream thinking...as yet.

Let's say we are fathers and our son comes home with a girlfriend (both white middle class...shouldn't matter though) she is early stage pregnancy he is in 3rd year Medicine. They want to get married and start a family. He is living in an apartment with her in a shady part of town....as that is all they can afford.

You and your wife are initially shocked and then you talk about it and come out with...Son you come home live we us, your studies and future career are far more important at this stage of your life.

You young girl here is the number for a clinic that will help you out and oh we are there for you afterwards and also we have changed sons phone number as we do not want you calling him but please stay in touch and tell us how you went.

This is distressing for you girl and we are here for you as your parents live in Perth.

I can imagine this happening and you both nodding you heads in agreement.....yeah nah.

Clear Fiduciary Duty failure by Hawthorn Clarko and Fagan lack of duty of care etc.

They all have a lot to answer for despite them thinking they were doing the right thing...most ignorant people do



On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

You forgot standover tactics of "well talk for the son on his behalf and you not not exit your domicile whilst we are there or we'll cease any and all support for you due to breaches" and what is akin to wire tapping with supposed sitting outside the door to a private conversation taking place and making notes ready to bust in if something untoward was stated.

It's the intimidation for me, reads a bit like 1940's commie hunting only instead using athletes that might be outside of safety bubbles.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Hi gents whilst I love the Kumbaya moment. You have focussed on the Racist bit which is great bit do not overlook the Modern Slavery aspect to this.

As it quite recent last 6 years no one has really latched onto this as it is not in mainstream thinking...as yet.

Let's say we are fathers and our son comes home with a girlfriend (both white middle class...shouldn't matter though) she is early stage pregnancy he is in 3rd year Medicine. They want to get married and start a family. He is living in an apartment with her in a shady part of town....as that is all they can afford.

You and your wife are initially shocked and then you talk about it and come out with...Son you come home live we us, your studies and future career are far more important at this stage of your life.

You young girl here is the number for a clinic that will help you out and oh we are there for you afterwards and also we have changed sons phone number as we do not want you calling him but please stay in touch and tell us how you went.

This is distressing for you girl and we are here for you as your parents live in Perth.

I can imagine this happening and you both nodding you heads in agreement.....yeah nah.

Clear Fiduciary Duty failure by Hawthorn Clarko and Fagan lack of duty of care etc.

They all have a lot to answer for despite them thinking they were doing the right thing...most ignorant people do



On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

My Niece was dating a guy from a well to do Family from Toorak. They were actively trying to split them up the entire time.
She would not have fit their ideal demographic at all .

Its easy to visualize a scenario in your head though, but that's all it is.
I agree it possibly went down like you said , but it might have been different too.

In parts of the ABC item, its unclear whether its the player or the partner ( former partner )?, or both with the grievance.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Talking about this issue as "modern slavery " is downplaying the severity of modern slavery IMO.

What is modern slavery?

What is modern slavery? Find out where modern slavery happens today, the numbers behind it and who is affected.

www.antislavery.org

Pressuring people to take actions at risk of losing their job, however vile and unethical it may seem, is not akin to modern slavery.

• Human trafficking. The use of violence, threats or coercion to transport, recruit or harbour people in order to exploit them for purposes such as forced prostitution, labour, criminality, marriage or organ removal.
• Forced labour. Any work or services people are forced to do against their will under threat of punishment.
• Debt bondage/bonded labour. The world’s most widespread form of slavery. People trapped in poverty borrow money and are forced to work to pay off the debt, losing control over both their employment conditions and the debt.
• Descent–based slavery. Most traditional form, where people are treated as property, and their “slave” status was passed down the maternal line.
• Slavery of children. When a child is exploited for someone else’s gain. This can include child trafficking, child soldiers, child marriage and child domestic slavery.
• Forced and early marriage. When someone is married against their will and cannot leave. Most child marriages can be considered slavery.

 

[jwikked]

After watching Geelong win another grand final on a beautiful sunny day with the drinks flowing how was this thread ever going anywhere else ?.

The weather today could not have been better where I was. I even cracked the Evaporative Cooler on just for a test run before Summer.

 

[Mowman]

After watching Geelong win another grand final on a beautiful sunny day with the drinks flowing how was this thread ever going anywhere else ?.

would have been disappointed if it didn't

 

[Hayes4PM]

After watching Geelong win another grand final on a beautiful sunny day with the drinks flowing how was this thread ever going anywhere else ?.

It’s the way they won it in a canter and spent the last quarter spreading goals among the playing group that was giving me the shits. Old mate Jeremy Cameron did **** all in the first half, Robbie Fox was destroying him, then when the game is all done and dusted he kicks a junk time goal and starts doing pretend beer opening/skulling celebrations like he’s the greatest player of all time.

I just don’t like them.

 

[Barrels]

Isn’t all this a bit academic?

Life expectancy for the average Australian male is about 80… I’m about halfway…

I don’t expect to see a living Premiership.

 

[lewdogs]

Isn’t all this a bit academic?

Life expectancy for the average Australian male is about 80… I’m halfway…

I don’t expect to see a living Premiership.

Honestly I'd just like my son to see one. He's two, surely he gets one.

 

[Barrels]

Honestly I'd just like my son to see one. He's two, surely he gets one.