List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part III

[George]

So your opinion is that the club thinks we are kids and need a show put on to make us not think there is a dumpster fire brewing at Moorabbin?

I’ll stop here. Continuing discussing this narrative is killing my brain cells

In a way yes, but not all the time. I don't know why you believe it's not like that at our club or anywhere else. I just think that this is stock standard for pretty much any business. There's a retention aspect to it (in this case members) and there's a narrative to control. If the club were honest all the time we'd have no members left based on the last decade. It's pretty obvious to me that anything public is an exercise in keeping members on board until at which point it becomes obvious that honesty is the best way forward. We have shown that by sacking the fitness bloke and now running a review. If we continued to run the narrative that everything is fine, members would turn. It's a balancing act that all clubs (and all businesses in general) play with their clients. That's pretty normal to me.

Our actions are what should count, and the fact we sacked him says to me that we know we got it wrong. We admitted that publicly but also went about changing that situation in getting rid of him.

Would definitely focus my attention on what the club actually does as opposed to what they say, anyway. Holding them to something like this is a bit naive I reckon.

So that's one way to look at it, the other would be to believe them when they said we were fit enough then six months later or whatever come out and say we weren't. That's probably why he was sacked, he could've just misread the standard required for all we know.

In any event, our actions speak much louder to me personally than anything we've ever said. We are running a review and heading to the draft. Says to me we're in for a mini-rebuild or reset and things obviously aren't great. They can put a bow on it and say it all went lovely in a weeks time or whenever the summary is released but I will let our performance next year act as the response for what is happening now.

 

[George]

I suspect the club know that 95% of supporters don't pay much attention day to day, and only watch the club on weekends. Those supporters can totally be kept happy by bread and circuses. It's only the nuffies on here like us that need actual substance.

Yeah that's exactly it lol. Happens everywhere. Would be reckless to not aim to placate members and keep revenue rolling in. We have been bad for long enough to have no members left if the club compounded those issues by being completely honest all the time.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Your mate will be lurking soon.

Need to throw some outlandish s**t out there for him to bathe in.

…. I heard Max King for picks 2+3

 

[CursingFijian]

I don't mind what North have done. That top 3 is pretty hard to seperate other than needs and GWS want Cadman. Probably take the player they would have anyway plus another and get a pick in the teens next year. Get the picks right and it will be a huge opportunity.

Rankine is the only player GC will care about losing. They weren't playing a lot of those guys who were dragging their cap down.

What North have done with this years pick 1 in isolation is perfectly fine. But you’re glossing over last years #1 pick being wrapped up in that deal.

When you break it down they traded one 1 pick for 2 & (say) 8. They traded the other #1 pick for #3.

I reckon you’d be pretty vocal if the Saints did that.

 

[stavro#4]

In a way yes, but not all the time. I don't know why you believe it's not like that at our club or anywhere else. I just think that this is stock standard for pretty much any business. There's a retention aspect to it (in this case members) and there's a narrative to control. If the club were honest all the time we'd have no members left based on the last decade. It's pretty obvious to me that anything public is an exercise in keeping members on board until at which point it becomes obvious that honesty is the best way forward. We have shown that by sacking the fitness bloke and now running a review. If we continued to run the narrative that everything is fine, members would turn. It's a balancing act that all clubs (and all businesses in general) play with their clients. That's pretty normal to me.

Our actions are what should count, and the fact we sacked him says to me that we know we got it wrong. We admitted that publicly but also went about changing that situation in getting rid of him.

Would definitely focus my attention on what the club actually does as opposed to what they say, anyway. Holding them to something like this is a bit naive I reckon.

So that's one way to look at it, the other would be to believe them when they said we were fit enough then six months later or whatever come out and say we weren't. That's probably why he was sacked, he could've just misread the standard required for all we know.

In any event, our actions speak much louder to me personally than anything we've ever said. We are running a review and heading to the draft. Says to me we're in for a mini-rebuild or reset and things obviously aren't great. They can put a bow on it and say it all went lovely in a weeks time or whenever the summary is released but I will let our performance next year act as the response for what is happening now.

There is only one narrative that will be taken and it won’t be the clubs.

So if you believe that the truth was a show and a reach around for members.

Then shut us down.

Because the media finally got a senior staff member to admit what they have been saying for years.

We are irrelevant.

My belief, is that this regime are trying to be accountable. That teams event was just a shit show they were unprepared for.

We haven’t done one since (shows learning)
Completing a legitimate review (identifying issues)
Hired proven performers in the industry (rectifying issues)

 

[SteeleSaints]

The Saints have simply got to stop looking at short term fixes and take a longer approach to list development. Our list desperately needs top level midfielders if we are going to improve. We have done for 10 years and we keep finding ways to mess it up.

This year and next both look like decent midfield drafts, so for me the Clark trade is a no brainer. So absolutely I would take Port's 1st next year and hope to get some other sweetener.

Clark has had 5 years to show he is going to step up and simply hasnt shown enough. If Clark remains where does he play? He has proven he is not going to get to midfield levels, so he is another HBF who we have plenty of.

Its time the club makes the required but not always popular decision!

 

[_Maximus_12]

David Noble is essentially talking about the exact scenario I mentioned this morning with Dunkley, however in relation to Oliver Henry.
Bring the asset in, and then it’s your asset to trade in 12 months time

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Post this stuff in the coaching thread thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Punter]

The Saints have simply got to stop looking at short term fixes and take a longer approach to list development. Our list desperately needs top level midfielders if we are going to improve. We have done for 10 years and we keep finding ways to mess it up.

This year and next both look like decent midfield drafts, so for me the Clak trade is a no brainer. So absolutely I would take Port's 1st next year and hope to get some other sweetener.

Clark has had 5 years to show he is going to step up and simply hasnt shown enough. If Clark remains where does he play? He has proven he is not going to get to midfield levels, so he is another HBF who we have plenty of.

Its time the club makes the required decision!

The "proven he is not going to get there" is pretty comparable to when there was heavy criticism of Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna et al in 2007 when we were in a slump. I wrote somewhere at the time they were the first players ever written off at 23 years old. Seems it is happening again.

 

[MordySaint]

So your opinion is that the club thinks we are kids and need a show put on to make us not think there is a dumpster fire brewing at Moorabbin?

I’ll stop here. Continuing discussing this narrative is killing my brain cells

Tell you what hurts my brain cells. Looking back at our drafting in the last few years and how we got to where we are right now.

How we get things so wrong, is evidence right here.

 

[PandaG]

Um why is this a problem..?
In effect it’s Clark and pick 10-12 for pick 1

 

[JediSaint]

In a way yes, but not all the time. I don't know why you believe it's not like that at our club or anywhere else. I just think that this is stock standard for pretty much any business. There's a retention aspect to it (in this case members) and there's a narrative to control. If the club were honest all the time we'd have no members left based on the last decade. It's pretty obvious to me that anything public is an exercise in keeping members on board until at which point it becomes obvious that honesty is the best way forward. We have shown that by sacking the fitness bloke and now running a review. If we continued to run the narrative that everything is fine, members would turn. It's a balancing act that all clubs (and all businesses in general) play with their clients. That's pretty normal to me.

Our actions are what should count, and the fact we sacked him says to me that we know we got it wrong. We admitted that publicly but also went about changing that situation in getting rid of him.

Would definitely focus my attention on what the club actually does as opposed to what they say, anyway. Holding them to something like this is a bit naive I reckon.

So that's one way to look at it, the other would be to believe them when they said we were fit enough then six months later or whatever come out and say we weren't. That's probably why he was sacked, he could've just misread the standard required for all we know.

In any event, our actions speak much louder to me personally than anything we've ever said. We are running a review and heading to the draft. Says to me we're in for a mini-rebuild or reset and things obviously aren't great. They can put a bow on it and say it all went lovely in a weeks time or whenever the summary is released but I will let our performance next year act as the response for what is happening now.

A mini rebuild and only bring in Zane Cordy.

IMO the rebuild has been internal. We have removed the dead wood Sexton, Lade, McGlynn, and co, that have been around for some time and we aren't delivering. Going backwards if anything. As far as playing group goes we have some players in the wings, Highmore, Connelly, Byrnes, Sharman, Heath who are all knocking on the door of the 22 and who all have ceiling to reach, plus whoever else we bring in through the nat draft.

So if little baby 2 pound 3 ounce Jesus is watching over us, we will dramatically change the game plan to suit the strengths of the playing group so we can remain competitive for the 4 quarters of football. Amen

 

[DarkSaint]

Let’s say we take that port deal.

We have a weaker list in 2023.

Walsh stated our aim was finals. 7-8th on the ladder is believe is what they are targeting.

There is every chance a high end kid comes in and plays his role and contributes. Having nothing makes that harder.

Weaker list in what way? Clark over the last two years has hardly featured and the years before that was a borderline selection. So we are no worse or better of based on his form line over the last 5 years.

Yes that should be our aim to be making finals. Clark will not be the difference if we go off 5 years of form. He could very well explode and drag us over the line, but imo that would be negligent if we are pinning our hopes on a kid with questionable work ethic.

There is no guarantee of port making finals next year so at best we could get pick 7 and at worse pick imo 14.

We are not winning a flag next year, I would rather plan for one rather than be looking at it 1 year at a time. We tried the top up pathway and it has backfired.

Hopefully with this new recruiter we can get A grade talent. What needs to happen is our first pick this year needs to go close to winning the rising star award or ar least be in contention.

Far too often we have drafted players and used excuses that they are not big enough/fit enough/need more time. Time and time again this has proven to be a lack of judgement and recruiting from our end.

Look at Windy/Michito and a skinny kid in NAS making an impact straight away. We like to find excuses for our below average drafting over the last 10 years.

 

[MordySaint]

A mini rebuild and only bring in Zane Cordy.

IMO the rebuild has been internal. We have removed the dead wood Sexton, Lade, McGlynn, and co, that have been around for some time and we aren't delivering. Going backwards if anything. As far as playing group goes we have some players in the wings, Highmore, Connelly, Byrnes, Sharman, Heath who are all knocking on the door of the 22 and who all have ceiling to reach, plus whoever else we bring in through the nat draft.

So if little baby 2 pound 3 ounce Jesus is watching over us, we will dramatically change the game plan to suit the strengths of the playing group so we can remain competitive for the 4 quarters of football. Amen

Zane Cordy, really.

That makes 47 players recruited who have won premierships with other clubs.

This figure far exceeds any other club and triples some other highly successful clubs.

Do they really believe getting players who have won premierships with other clubs actually works... evidence is certainly pointing the complete opposite way.

 

[stavro#4]

Weaker list in what way? Clark over the last two years has hardly featured and the years before that was a borderline selection. So we are no worse or better of based on his form line over the last 5 years.

Yes that should be our aim to be making finals. Clark will not be the difference if we go off 5 years of form. He could very well explode and drag us over the line, but imo that would be negligent if we are pinning our hopes on a kid with questionable work ethic.

There is no guarantee of port making finals next year so at best we could get pick 7 and at worse pick imo 14.

We are not winning a flag next year, I would rather plan for one rather than be looking at it 1 year at a time. We tried the top up pathway and it has backfired.

Hopefully with this new recruiter we can get A grade talent. What needs to happen is our first pick this year needs to go close to winning the rising star award or ar least be in contention.

Far too often we have drafted players and used excuses that they are not big enough/fit enough/need more time. Time and time again this has proven to be a lack of judgement and recruiting from our end.

Look at Windy/Michito and a skinny kid in NAS making an impact straight away. We like to find excuses for our below average drafting over the last 10 years.

We missed finals this year.

So you need improvement to come from either the draft or existing players.

Clark would be a player we all expect takes the next step and elevates us.

Removing him and not replacing him in one summer weakens us

 

[Veer Right]

If that’s the opinion on Clark, why are people crying about potentially losing him?

Supporter base has been like this since the beginning of time (or early 2000s when i started reading bigfooty)

X player shows flashes of becoming a potential future top player or has a couple of standout games then it does not matter how much X player is meh in the next 100 games, they are a star and will take the club to a flag.

Repeat ad infinitum.

 

[Veer Right]

We missed finals this year.

So you need improvement to come from either the draft or existing players.

Clark would be a player we all expect takes the next step and elevates us.

Removing him and not replacing him in one summer weakens us

Proves my point.

 

[George]

There is only one narrative that will be taken and it won’t be the clubs.

So if you believe that the truth was a show and a reach around for members.

Then shut us down.

Because the media finally got a senior staff member to admit what they have been saying for years.

We are irrelevant.

My belief, is that this regime are trying to be accountable. That teams event was just a s**t show they were unprepared for.

We haven’t done one since (shows learning)
Completing a legitimate review (identifying issues)
Hired proven performers in the industry (rectifying issues)

I agree with most of that. I think truth or not, most of what they come out with publicly is a reach-around. I don't take much notice of any of it, our performances tell me most of what I need to know and that is that we're a mediocre football team that has issues needing to be rectified - those issues are subjective, to me it's mental application but I'm sure we could think of plenty of reasons.

I just think to not see things like the Zoom call for what they are is naive. It's all just a PR stunt, isn't it? Clubs talk straight bullshit until they can't anymore. They are trying to balance the general feel of members so we keep money coming in. I think that's a smart thing to do actually and hope we continue doing it, but I know better and won't take much notice of it. It's more for the large majority that don't bother to analyse the club like we do here and definitely aren't as critical of the club.

I agree we are trying to be accountable and thought it was a breath of fresh air to hear Walsh come out and call us irrelevant. He was pretty much spot on. Very rare you hear those kinds of comments, usually it's all just white noise but that stuff cut through and it was honestly good to hear. No doubt we go back to placating but a bit of honesty when shit has hit the fan seems to be the best approach. Obviously what the club says internally is very different to what they say externally, I'm sure they all know we have a lot of issues and honestly think Bassat is at least giving a shit enough to sit people down and go about making change to help us improve.

No idea if any of the new appointments work but at least it shows some level of unrest and dissatisfaction from the big wigs. We will know when the boys take the field in 6 months time though, and not what fluff piece we decide to put out between then and now.

 

[Yawkey way]

Um why is this a problem..?
In effect it’s Clark and pick 10-12 for pick 1

It’s not pick anything yet given it’s a future and you’re giving up clark and another good first round pick to get it. We need more top end talent and you can’t achieve that doing 2 out 1 in deals imo, that’s why I don’t like it.

 

[George]

A mini rebuild and only bring in Zane Cordy.

IMO the rebuild has been internal. We have removed the dead wood Sexton, Lade, McGlynn, and co, that have been around for some time and we aren't delivering. Going backwards if anything. As far as playing group goes we have some players in the wings, Highmore, Connelly, Byrnes, Sharman, Heath who are all knocking on the door of the 22 and who all have ceiling to reach, plus whoever else we bring in through the nat draft.

So if little baby 2 pound 3 ounce Jesus is watching over us, we will dramatically change the game plan to suit the strengths of the playing group so we can remain competitive for the 4 quarters of football. Amen

I think internal is half the problem. I don't mind us not doing much over trade period, I think we have a list that is underperforming and good enough when they play to their potential. I am happy that the focus is the draft, we have neglected it for years.

 

[Remboy]

So have we got Heeney yet?

 

[phantom13]

Except for the part where ALL of the handful of clubs ahead of us in the PSD could easily restructure their payments to accomodate paying 1.2mill and take him instead.

Genius, except for the bit where it doesn't work at all.

It’s more creative than anything our actual list management team has done give some credit. Plus how often does a team take a player who has nommed a club in the PSD. It’s pretty rare.

 

[Saints43]

Pay forward some existing contracts and play the kids. That's all there is left.

Can't we carry 5% over to the next season? Start hitting up the potential free agents again....

 

[Remboy]

The Saints have simply got to stop looking at short term fixes and take a longer approach to list development. Our list desperately needs top level midfielders if we are going to improve. We have done for 10 years and we keep finding ways to mess it up.

This year and next both look like decent midfield drafts, so for me the Clark trade is a no brainer. So absolutely I would take Port's 1st next year and hope to get some other sweetener.

Clark has had 5 years to show he is going to step up and simply hasnt shown enough. If Clark remains where does he play? He has proven he is not going to get to midfield levels, so he is another HBF who we have plenty of.

Its time the club makes the required but not always popular decision!

That’s assuming that North are prepared to offer Ports future first for Clark. If we did take that we could potentially trade it for a first this year. But they are only offering less than than eg their future second, we could end up with pick 25 nex5 year. Not worth it in my opinion.

 

[DarkSaint]

We missed finals this year.

So you need improvement to come from either the draft or existing players.

Clark would be a player we all expect takes the next step and elevates us.

Removing him and not replacing him in one summer weakens us

Correct we missed finals this year and are no guarantee of finals next year either.

We expect him to take the next step I agree, but we had those expectations 5 years ago and he hasn't delivered. There is no guarantee that he will do anything next year. If we base it on form line instead of ports first round being around pick 10 we could potentially get pick 40 if he has another year like his previous 2. Even if he tears it up we won't be getting a top 5 pick for him.

If we look at potential then having Coffield/Hayes who missed most of the season will improve us and also the youngsters.

The only thing that we will improve us making finals or not is the coach and the tactics and imo that's a discussion for an other day.