List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part III

[pebblesofsand]

Given the points calculator Clark and 23 would have been a small win for us
Clark and 9 would have been a small loss for us
Clark and 9 and the future first would have been a big loss for us

You’re always gonna value your guy higher than oppo does for what they wanted to give up for him in extremely happy to retain him and I think most saints supporters feel the same way.

The thing that got me is that we were prepared to give up Pick 9 and Clark to get Pick 3 (roughly Pick 25 for Clark) but supposedly knocked back another offer of Norths 2nd and 3rd rounders (next year I assume) which you'd think were going to around 19/20 and 39/40 which is a points equivalent of Pick 11.

If that offer was real and early on the piece, I'm sure we could have upgraded our current position of 9, 28, 32, 47 in this years draft.

The only thing you can assume is that the sequence of trades didn't play out so we couldn't do anything else and that we wanted a specific player with Pick 3 and if we couldn't guarantee getting him then we weren't budging.

I'll leave it to the draft watcher ITK to try and figure out who that player is.

 

[_Maximus_12]

All of those new players we’ve landed will certainly create competition for spots and drive some standards at the clun

 

[lewdogs]

The thing that got me is that we were prepared to give up Pick 9 and Clark to get Pick 3 (Pick 25) but supposedly knocked back another offer of Norths 2nd and 3rd rounders (next year I assume) which you'd think were going to around 19/20 and 39/40 which is a points equivalent of Pick 11.

If that offer was real and early on the piece, I'm sure we could have upgraded our current position of 9, 28, 32, 47 in this years draft.

The only thing you can assume is that the sequence of trades didn't play out so we could do anything else and that we wanted a specific player with Pick 3 and if we couldn't guarantee getting him then we weren't budging.

I'll leave it to the draft watcher ITK to try and figure out who that player is.

I understand it because we wanted to get to the pointy end of the draft and the second and third rounders wouldn't help in that regard.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I understand it because we wanted to get to the pointy end of the draft and the second and third rounders wouldn't help in that regard.

Yeah - I agree - clearly we were after a specific player and were prepared to move on Clark (at a Pick 25 eq) to get him but weren't prepared to do it for later picks that didn't guarantee that outcome.

My "what if" query is this if that if we were prepared to move Clark on, what could we have achieved in this years draft by packaging up 28, 32, and North 2nd and 3rd rounder from next year.

Clearly we think there is some outstanding talent early this year and then it evens out pretty quickly and that 28 and 32 might still get us some reasonable talent. Only the draft will provide an answer to that.

7 players retired or delisted, only one taken in FA/trade, so there's a fair bit to play out yet.

 

[gringo2011]

I am disappointed we didn’t go hard for Lachie Hunter. Plenty of footy left and a good user that can play inside and out.

He went so cheap that he seems a no brainer. So many players moved this trade period and for so much less than in the past. Free agency seems to have made player movement much more fluid. We seem one of only a few clubs that seem to have missed the bus on the new frontier.

It's hard to see what we are up to at the moment. If there is a plan it's certainly not a super clear one.

 

[Klaatu]

Nah the quote was:

"List boss James Gallagher said supporters, who would have to be in their late 50s to have seen the club’s only premiership in 1966, wouldn’t mind waiting another 12 months to ensure the Saints spiked sharply."

Doesn't sound to me like he expects to challenge next year.

Not challenging doesn't mean we don't finish 5th to 8th either as none of those side this year were going to challenge either,our draw & injuries will play a big part in where we finish.

Would like to see us play GC x 2,Nth x 2, Haw x2,WC x 2 & play Syd,Geel,PtA,Rch x 1 with Syd,Pt & Geel at Marvel

 

[Joffaboy]

I don't know what the complaints are about, we only have to wait until 2024 until we win a flag, Gags said it, so it must be true
How many times are they going to trot this 'just wait a while' bs?
And how long do they expect us to keep paying our hard earned?

 

[Yawkey way]

You seem fascinated by this bending over business...it's okay to let those true feelings out Stav

Midnight express.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeaaaah. I very much doubt a comment indicating he would like a top end pick in a reportably super strong draft is indicative of the club tanking. I mean seriously, if the the indication from above was to commit to a full rebuild then there would have been far more ejection of players rather then actually holding onto them.

You people have got yourselves so worked up about this trade period youve lost any kind of critical thinking.

It does seem a bit confusing though. It looks like we are choosing to lie down while others are trying to move forward quickly. If we don't choose to top up I'm guessing that we are not artificially pushing up and are choosing to step backwards to load up in the next couple of drafts.

DeGoey looks like part of last years plan and like they have changed it but didn't want to piss off DeGoey's manager.It doesn't seem very consistent.

 

[BrutThough]

If we are bin digging Narkle looks the pick of the delisted players. Daniel Howe at the Hawks played some outside midfield and looked like he had a arrived a couple of years ago. He had some big stats.

Jackson Callow the best of the tall forwards. Hartigan and Skinner are both meh but available. Matt Conroy is a huge raw athletic ruck forward from GC who is only 22. His brother plays league and was meant to be promising.

2022 AFL Retirements Delisting - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

I don't mind Howe as a player, but outside mid is the one area we have depth in.

I'd happily take one of the Brown bothers. One was particularly unlucky to be delisted. I also wouldn't be shocked if we gave Collier-Dawkins - yet to be offered a contract - given we tried to trade up to get him his draft year.

Slim picking for talls there. Was Skinner the one who had a lot of hype last year as a DFA? didn't last long at Port. The other option is bring in another defender and move Battle (or Cordy) forward if we can't find anyone.

 

[gringo2011]

It seemed like a really bizarre statement.

So what are they planning for?

A worse season than 2022? The same?

And how does this line up with Walsh's statements last week?

They really need to spell out their plan to members. Last 2 years were "unacceptable" but then rather than admit that they screwed up the coaching and footy department appointments, we choose to bottom out again and let the stuff ups run the rebuild in their new more powerful positions.

I hope Walsh has a lot of say about how they run the show. Not much about the current lot instils any faith.

 

[Nutsngum]

I think holistically none of us wanted to go HAM in this trade period.

I tend to agree that the DeGoey pitch was smart and even though it missed I’m glad we tried.

Cordy in is whatever really, I see absolutely no benefit in it at all and can’t see how it helps.

My frustration is probably the lack of creativity and the what if’s.

What if we were more proactive about the Bowes and 7 deal. It blows my mind we couldn’t find a way to make the Long trade a part of that AND get Bowes to see a financial and career benefit in coming to us.

With the benefit of a good nights sleep my frustration about whatever we might have been entertaining to get rid of Hunter Clark has disappated. Let’s hope the rumours of us considering Clark, 9 and a future first were bullshit and that Clark has a year of improvement and winds up having a long career with us.

We’ve clearly decided to back our list in to develop and improve and I like that call, we just need to see it happen now. Interested to see people’s best 22 for 2023, few returning from injury and development opportunities there.

We need to get over the Bowes thing. He wasnt going anywhere except Geelong as they knew before anyone else and got their claws in a year ago.

Same reason why Degoey was only weighing up between us and Collingwood, Sydney/Essendon came in at the last minute and hadnt done their work.

It does seem a bit confusing though. It looks like we are choosing to lie down while others are trying to move forward quickly. If we don't choose to top up I'm guessing that we are not artificially pushing up and are choosing to step backwards to load up in the next couple of drafts.

DeGoey looks like part of last years plan and like they have changed it but didn't want to piss off DeGoey's manager.It doesn't seem very consistent.

I think doing an interview with anyone after a week of solid work and hours of negotiating with dumb ass north will produce some random thought patterns. People are just reading too much into it, Gallagher doesnt run the team.

 

[Klaatu]

Narkle is a better player then Jones, we need to get him in through DFA.

 

[Verdun]

I don't mind Howe as a player, but outside mid is the one area we have depth in.

I'd happily take one of the Brown bothers. One was particularly unlucky to be delisted. I also wouldn't be shocked if we gave Collier-Dawkins - yet to be offered a contract - given we tried to trade up to get him his draft year.

Slim picking for talls there. Was Skinner the one who had a lot of hype last year as a DFA? didn't last long at Port. The other option is bring in another defender and move Battle (or Cordy) forward if we can't find anyone.

Do we have depth of outside mid players? We have potential but do not think we have depth and lack class (at the moment - there is scope for improvement with Owens, WM, Gresham, Windhager with potential)

 

[Yawkey way]

He probably goes out for not much next year unless our coaching turns around

12 months in football is a very long time, let’s just wait and see what happens. I find it hard to believe we could get less than what was offered even if he wants to leave, also put your cash on hawthorn to finish last.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Have to question our strategy and execution if the plan is to ‘spike sharply’ after 2023.

There are currently 14 of our ‘best 22’ who will be over 26 next year.

That suggests to me we absolutely should be in our window.

In another 2 years players like Steele, Sinclair, Crouch, Hill, Howard, Billing’s, Ross & Membrey will all be coming towards the back few holes of their careers with no obvious, high end replacements in sight.

If Clark, Coffield, King, Battle & Higgins don’t step up and take ownership of the side in the next two years then it’s back to the drawing board and another rebuild.

I think we’ve seen enough from Gags to suggest he’s not the man for the job.

 

[gringo2011]

First half of the year says differently.

Thats why I said psychology. Toughen them up mentally. We are capable of Top 8 for a start.

The first half was fools gold, we were playing ugly footy that was often wins off the back of 10 minutes of good footy. Lots of lower sides in that lot as well. We had no real game plan other than get the ball to King and once sides worked us out we had nothing else. The players looked like they checked out of the systems by late in the year and everyone seemed to be playing to hold their spot, not get a win.

If we don't overrides Rath and Ratts amateur hour stuff we will play more like the second half of the year than the first.

 

[gringo2011]

Glad we didn't put our eggs in the Ratugolea basket.

Geelong wouldn't accept pick 33, so we'd have had to give up one of our 2nds rounders.

Cordy without giving up a pick and a more proven track record doesn't seem so bad.

Ratta was too much but Cordy is still a weird appointment to me. He's more of what we have an oversupply of. I'd rather put games into Highmore or Sharman.

 

[BrutThough]

Do we have depth of outside mid players? We have potential but do not think we have depth and lack class (at the moment - there is scope for improvement with Owens, WM, Gresham, Windhager with potential)

Using outside as the wing given Howe spent a lot of time there, we have all of Hill, DMac, Billings, NWM, Wood, Byrnes, Jones can all spend time throughout games. Plus Ross can be moved out if we want to prioritise others in the centre square.

 

[BrutThough]

Ratta was too much but Cordy is still a weird appointment to me. He's more of what we have an oversupply of. I'd rather put games into Highmore or Sharman.

He's a lot bigger and stronger than those 2.

No point putting games into them if it's at the expense of the entire side because they are lining up on Hawkins or Lynch, who they are a terrible match up for.

 

[Sully111]

The problem I see is Ratts going all out to try and make finals next year, rather than building for a premiership.

 

[The Boar]

so the only really thing to come out this trade period is confirmation on how incredibly cooked we are. Gag's comments today should be a huge red flag. we are going no where fast under this list management.

his primary responsibility is to establish the LONG TERM list strategy to get us a flag and then ensure we implement that strategy.

he's loaded up in the short term, burning a top 5 pick, its gone **** up and hasn't worked and now his whole strategy is we will spend 12 months either finishing top 4 or bottoming out.

like how is that a strategy???????? its neither here nor there. is he aware of the age of some of the key pillars of the side? does he really think one more draft period is gonna fix all our issues?

it's like me going to my boss and saying "look i aim to deliver the work to you on time and on budget, but if it won't meet your requirements, then i won't do it at all and you'll have to wait until i can meet your requirements. that could be 12 months away."

there is absolutely no way thats acceptable.

there literally is no expectation and thats our biggest issue. we've had this flip flopping on the assessment of the side because there is no expectation. just an assessment at the minute. there's no long term plan or assessing us against that plan. its literally 'what you see is what you get' and 'it is what it is'. this was the same problem with the presidents correspondence, its the same problem in the members Q&A sessions.

there literally is no solid plan that is being sold to supporters beyond the latest thought bubble in the moment or what ever they think will resonate with supporters.

now Gags in in richo territory where he gets a 2nd crack at it. can we just cut this one off early and let walsh find a decent list boss and head recruiter.

The strategy will be: Remain competitive but rebuild with youth. 1st and 2nd Round picks to the Draft each year, cut some quality where possible to regenerate (Clark).

What that misses is boldness! I don't mind what the Hawks are doing, probably cutting too hard but they're trying to hit their problems hard. We're slow and boring, no risk and limited reward.

 

[Saint Shags]

They really need to spell out their plan to members. Last 2 years were "unacceptable" but then rather than admit that they screwed up the coaching and footy department appointments, we choose to bottom out again and let the stuff ups run the rebuild in their new more powerful positions.

I hope Walsh has a lot of say about how they run the show. Not much about the current lot instils any faith.

This isn't a coaching or footy department type of statement.
I know you want to get rid of them all.
But this statement says they need a mini rebuild.

Walsh needs to get on top of the messaging because it seems to have changed within 7 days.

 

[Ads734]

It seemed like a really bizarre statement.

So what are they planning for?

A worse season than 2022? The same?

And how does this line up with Walsh's statements last week?

He didn’t actually say that , did he? I thought it was a joke.

 

[Verdun]

Using outside as the wing given Howe spent a lot of time there, we have all of Hill, DMac, Billings, NWM, Wood, Byrnes, Jones can all spend time throughout games. Plus Ross can be moved out if we want to prioritise others in the centre square.

Yep understand your point, we may have numbers not class. Hill doesn't play in the middle, DMac exceeded expectations but..., NWM huge ceiling, Wood mmm again exceeded expectations but not class in the middle, Byrnes and Jones we have missed through injury.

Agree we have numbers do not have class (yet), have argued for years we need help in the middle.