List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[freo_leo29]

Sorry, I was asking for evidence. Whatever your posting history is on Henry, it aint evidence here.

Bender571 has (on face value) produced some of the most solid evidence (re the time trials), although you could have a wee caveat on it being not totally conclusive given the factors that might impact time trials. That evidence hardly indicates substantial differences between in those time trial times (and especially that would play out so significantly within games and over time).

As if watching both players at both AFL and wafl level for years isn't enough evidence

 

[freo_leo29]

WA

Must be over for the bye break


Didn't see him in a Cockburn coffee shop by any chance?

 

[arsesmart]

I think agility is a different thing and when people say fast on here, they always mean straight line / line breaking with speed.

You're asking for hard evidence to back-up something that is hard to quantify without being intimately involved in a club or having access to club data. From watching every Freo game since Henry has been drafted, seeing him run down from behind on several occassions and rarely if ever breaking away from a player using pace, I would put him in the "not particularly fast" bracket.

And that's ok, from watching all those games, I have put him in the "elite agility" bracket as well the "can cut you up with small precise kicking bracket" as well

I'm more examining the use of absolutes such as fast/not fast/slow and/or subsequent comparisons as impressionistic. Sure you can do that. It can feel certain. But asking for evidence occasionally is pretty useful to see where those categories are at.

Initially, I was simply questioning what the assertion that there was a significant speed difference between Henry and Langdon was based on. After that I've been more on a general discussion on impressions and observables (and the rubberiness of categorisation).

The discussion around Henry just has so many of these stories, absolutes and impressions crystallised and asserted as fact, there's worth in challenging with specifics more frequently.

 

[greatgatsby]

Georgiades is interesting. Presumably Port will have trouble promising him more game time next year if they keep going the way they are. And while the Eagles can promise him game time (as they can the water boy), I'm sure he'd prefer to play for an AFL side.

 

[Dockeroo]

Henry to Carlton. For pick 9.

As things stand it might be hard for Carltoon to get their hands on pick 9. They could do a trade with the Suns for 9, 24 and maybe a player (Martin?? McGovern?).

Assuming you guys are joking here right?
If Henry is traded for a top 10 pick, I’ll come and paint both your houses for free.

 

[rgauci]

Georgiades is interesting. Presumably Port will have trouble promising him more game time next year if they keep going the way they are. And while the Eagles can promise him game time (as they can the water boy), I'm sure he'd prefer to play for an AFL side.

Can we offer him game time?

Post ACL is he ahead of Jackson, Amiss or Treacy? Not in my mind. He hasn’t shown an ability to move up the ground. His field kicking is quite poor, he’s a wonderful set shot and contested mark. He would be playing the Amiss role. He can’t play back up ruck. I’m not sure I’d bother to be honest.

 

[arsesmart]

Assuming you guys are joking here right?
If Henry is traded for a top 10 pick, I’ll come and paint both your houses for free.

Jes, it's in jest.

...although if he were to pull out that performance in a winning final...

 

[greatgatsby]

Can we offer him game time?

Post ACL is he ahead of Jackson, Amiss or Treacy? Not in my mind. He hasn’t shown an ability to move up the ground. His field kicking is quite poor, he’s a wonderful set shot and contested mark. He would be playing the Amiss role. He can’t play back up ruck. I’m not sure I’d bother to be honest.

I don't disagree. Depends a bit on how Josh develops I suppose.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Can we offer him game time?

Post ACL is he ahead of Jackson, Amiss or Treacy? Not in my mind. He hasn’t shown an ability to move up the ground. His field kicking is quite poor, he’s a wonderful set shot and contested mark. He would be playing the Amiss role. He can’t play back up ruck. I’m not sure I’d bother to be honest.

He might not be strict best 22 but we have played Sturt or Banfield in a fair few games and I think he's a better talent than them. I THINK he could work with those three because all 4 are so mobile, also, you could put Jackson more on ball.

For the price it would cost as a kid who couldnt get a game and coming off an ACL, I think it's as good a potential forwardline upgrade as we could get with pick after 30.

 

[Docker82]

Georgiades is 100% our third best KPF prospect behind Luke Jackson

9

Luke Jackson

Age

22

Ht

199cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.3

2star

K

3.3

1star

HB

5.0

4star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

0.3

3star

D

8.3

2star

K

3.3

1star

HB

5.0

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

0.3

3star

D

8.3

3star

K

3.3

2star

HB

5.0

4star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

0.3

3star

and Jye Amiss.

I rate Treacy as a future AFL footballer tbh but he doesn’t have the talent Georgiades has even if he’d lost his way a bit prior to the ACL. Look at what Georgiades did in 2021 and before. He’s like Jordan Clark

6

Jordan Clark

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

in his last two years at Geelong except with an ACL.

And yes Georgiades is a touch undersized but he’s 100% a KPF.

 

[Joao]

Georgiades for chips is easily worth a punt. Surely he'll get a better offer than us though.

 

[Docker82]

Georgiades for chips is easily worth a punt. Surely he'll get a better offer than us though.

This is the exact problem. He’s a more talented player than Treacy but for what cost in terms of picks and wages?

The ACL also means that his athleticism, which was pretty damn good, may never be the same. Without it he’s just an undersized key forward.

 

[Dockeroo]

Georgiades is 100% our third best KPF prospect behind Luke Jackson and Jye Amiss.

I rate Treacy as a future AFL footballer tbh but he doesn’t have the talent Georgiades has even if he’d lost his way a bit prior to the ACL. Look at what Georgiades did in 2021 and before. He’s like Jordan Clark in his last two years at Geelong except with an ACL.

And yes Georgiades is a touch undersized but he’s 100% a KPF.

I think a lot of fans on here get very attached to our players (understandably) and then tend to overrate our own and underrate opposition players.
The reality is to improve our team to the point where we can win a flag, some of the fan favourites and stalwarts who are in the 22 over the last couple of years, need to be replaced and upgraded.
It’s silly to think that we have in effect, “completed” our list build and are just going to have organic growth from within move us from 12 place on the ladder in 2023 to a flag winning position in 2024/25 or after.

At this stage when I look at our list, I’m asking - can he realistically play in a flag winning team?
Not just is he a good afl player. We should be beyond that now.
I love Josh Treacy for example, but would 2023 version of JT have played for either Geelong or Sydney in their 22 last sept for the GF? Probably not if we are honest with ourselves. He has a lot of improving to do still.
In my opinion all of the following have questions over them…

• both our wingers (Aish/NOD/Henry/Erasmus in whatever combo you like)
• Banfield & Sturt
• Treacy
• our small forwards as a unit. (They are all good, but none are great)
• hughes
• Pearce (there’s a numbers of top teams in the league where I think he would be a reserves player if he was on their list including Melbourne, port and Collingwood)
• JOM & Fyfe - not convinced we can carry both these guys into a hypothetical prelim final v port Adelaide or Melbourne for example, in 2024 or 2025.

I’m not saying we need to make all these changes listed above. But look at the top sides - constantly improving their lists each season. Every time I look at the AFL app brisbane are into yet another star free agent. Adelaide are already better than us and are chasing mason Redman hard. Port - arguable the best side in the comp are still not happy with their personnel and are loading up for Ratugolea this year. These are they type of sides we are going to be playing in PF and GF against in the next 4-5 years. Other teams like GC are getting kissed on the dick with 3 top 15 academy picks in the draft.

If we are just going to sit around waiting for draftees to develop and signing up fringe rookies in the WAFL (who are highly unlikely to be anything more then fringe role players at AFL level), and take a back seat at trade and draft week, how will that keep us in touch with the very best sides??

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I think a lot of fans on here get very attached to our players (understandably) and then tend to overrate our own and underrate opposition players.
The reality is to improve our team to the point where we can win a flag, some of the fan favourites and stalwarts who are in the 22 over the last couple of years, need to be replaced and upgraded.
It’s silly to think that we have in effect, “completed” our list build and are just going to have organic growth from within move us from 12 place on the ladder in 2023 to a flag winning position in 2024/25 or after.

At this stage when I look at our list, I’m asking - can he realistically play in a flag winning team?
Not just is he a good afl player. We should be beyond that now.
I love Josh Treacy for example, but would 2023 version of JT have played for either Geelong or Sydney in their 22 last sept for the GF? Probably not if we are honest with ourselves. He has a lot of improving to do still.
In my opinion all of the following have questions over them…

• both our wingers (Aish/NOD/Henry/Erasmus in whatever combo you like)
• Banfield & Sturt
• Treacy
• our small forwards as a unit. (They are all good, but none are great)
• hughes
• Pearce (there’s a numbers of top teams in the league where I think he would be a reserves player if he was on their list including Melbourne, port and Collingwood)
• JOM & Fyfe - not convinced we can carry both these guys into a hypothetical prelim final v port Adelaide or Melbourne for example, in 2024 or 2025.

I’m not saying we need to make all these changes listed above. But look at the top sides - constantly improving their lists each season. Every time I look at the AFL app brisbane are into yet another star free agent. Adelaide are already better than us and are chasing mason Redman hard. Port - arguable the best side in the comp are still not happy with their personnel and are loading up for Ratugolea this year. These are they type of sides we are going to be playing in PF and GF against in the next 4-5 years. Other teams like GC are getting kissed on the dick with 3 top 15 academy picks in the draft.

If we are just going to sit around waiting for draftees to develop and signing up fringe rookies in the WAFL (who are highly unlikely to be anything more then fringe role players at AFL level), and take a back seat at trade and draft week, how will that keep us in touch with the very best sides??

I agree with most here but I have to draw the line at the Pearce comment. Pearce would 100% get a gig in those sides. Dont underestimate how much better role playing defenders look when they have a gun KPD (May/Moore) and/or a strong midfield.

 

[Taylor]

Georgiades would need to be valued on what he could do, not on what he has done. That knee could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in regards to effectiveness on field.

He isn't big enough to be just a lead up forward who doesn't put on pressure because he can't run or dodge around enough anymore.

What's the chances of a subsequent knee being injured after one has already happened? I think it's higher than the risk of an athlete who hadn't done one before.

All needs to be factored in. Port fans will value him about twice what I think it's acceptable risk price.

 

[Alfonz]

Georgiades would need to be valued on what he could do, not on what he has done. That knee could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in regards to effectiveness on field.

He isn't big enough to be just a lead up forward who doesn't put on pressure because he can't run or dodge around enough anymore.

What's the chances of a subsequent knee being injured after one has already happened? I think it's higher than the risk of an athlete who hadn't done one before.

All needs to be factored in. Port fans will value him about twice what I think it's acceptable risk price.

I read a study that concluded the genetic contribution to ACL injuries is around 70%. That's different to a 70% chance of doing it again, but he more than likely has an underlying genetic issue and there will be a large risk of doing another one with his game based around stop/start/sideways movements (leading) and jumping/landing. Not to mention he might have lost the speed/leap which is critical to his game.

 

[apuchar]

I disagree. I think we underrate our own and over-rate anyone from another club.

 

[freo_leo29]

Pearce (there’s a numbers of top teams in the league where I think he would be a reserves player if he was on their list including Melbourne, port and Collingwood)

There are quite a few points I disagree with but this one is bonkers


Collingwood literally played billy Frampton for like 10 games this year, pearce walks right into their backline and stands tall next to Moore

Pearce takes Petty's spot instantly, no questions asked, imagine Pearce and may on kpf 1 and 2 with lever floating in, that's the stuff of dreams


Port Adelaides massive weakness is their kpd stocks, their captain can't get a game because he's fallen off a cliff, they're going to recruit Ben flipping McKay who hasn't done anything at afl level but his brother is Harry so everyone is giving him a pass, Pearce walks straight into their defense and stands tall next to alliir

 

[Joao]

I disagree. I think we underrate our own and over-rate anyone from another club.

Reckon we have the full spectrum on here, tbh.

 

[Eski3]

Reckon we have the full spectrum on here, tbh.

Definitely got some sort of spectrum on here that's for sure

 

[Ysaye]

Langdon ran a 2.92 20m sprint at his draft combine. Henry missed the combine with injury, but this link says he ran a 3.06 20m sprint at state testing.

Ed would often run players down from behind, and get goals out the back with pace. Can't says I've seen Henry do that.

My understanding:
Henry did do 3.06 but that was still under the recovery from dislocated knee injury. Earlier in that year I understood he put up numbers just under 3 seconds.

Ed is still a faster player though on 20m sprint basis (that 2.92 was possibly not his best performance as well)and is also an elite endurance runner. Henry had Top 10 agility run numbers for his year.

 

[wakojako]

Definitely got some sort of spectrum on here that's for sure

 

[Docker82]

We’re mostly where we are because of our midfield underperforming and because parts of our team being far too young to contend. We’re second bottom for average age on the park this year - you’re supposed to be bottom four with that sort of demographic.

The key will be keeping our best 14-15 players aged between 20 and 26 around for 4-5 years and hopefully we can challenge in the last 2-3 years of that.

Depth is important but we should be good enough to replace 2-3 of our players between 16-30 on our list each year through recruiting and/or development - if we’re not our list management isn’t good enough. Problems will come if we lose our better players or too many top 30 players in one hit (i.e. 2022).

Confident enough in the list but people can get too attached to players that are probably between 25-35 on our list imo. Our list depth isn’t ****ed if we delist Joel Hamling

29

Joel Hamling

Age

31

Ht

194cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.8

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

1.0

3star

or Nathan Wilson

14

Nathan Wilson

Age

31

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.1

4star

K

11.6

4star

HB

3.5

3star

M

3.9

4star

T

1.5

3star

MG

456.0

5star

D

10.7

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.2

3star

T

0.8

1star

MG

271.8

4star

D

7.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.6

3star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.4

4star

for example.

Around 4-6 changes is about I’d be comfortable with as a minimum tbh. We’ve had greater turnover most years as we’ve been trying to cover the loss of players who’ve requested trades - if you have five go in trade period of course you should have higher turnover. I’m not hearing too much about Freo at all this year except for maybe Liam Henry and BS from flogs like Sumich. I reckon trade week will be quiet this year tbh.

 

[Hamann188]

This is the exact problem. He’s a more talented player than Treacy but for what cost in terms of picks and wages?

The ACL also means that his athleticism, which was pretty damn good, may never be the same. Without it he’s just an undersized key forward.

He's an upgrade on JT now. But what about in 4-5 years when Josh is at full peak potential and Jye is right there with him.

Let them develop a chemistry together and in a couple of years it's going to be a frightening 1-2 punch that will be hard to defend.

 

[Troy Cooked It]

Only sharing this due to Georgiades coming into conversation, but he is having complications with his ACL recovery and might be going under the knife again for clean up. So negative for him personally and Port, but positive if you're looking to get him at a cheaper price.