VFL 2024 Swans Reserves

[Ticky009]

VFL Draw

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[Adnico26Parker]

Congrats to the Swans VFL squad players playing in the TAS vs SYD/Canberra rep game this weekend

James Lugsdin
Tye Gander
Koby Grass
Byron Laws
Hugo Birks

 

[Dubai Quacker]

I’m glad Kirk is being trialled as a small defender because I think it’s his best chance to progress. I was only able to watch the first and last quarters of the game last weekend as I had an event to attend but saw a)Kirk do some good stuff and b) Hansen look very dangerous. Given it’s probably the first time Kirk has been asked to play such a role I don’t think it was either great nor not-great for Kirk that Hansen was one of North’s best. He (Kirk) is a development player, not a ready-made, on-the-AFL-fringes player. It took Nick Smith several seasons to become the lockdown small defender he became. Not one game.

He (Kirk) has been playing the small defender role for a few weeks now (at least).

I want him to succeed - I honestly do! But to say he's a development player is a bit of a stretch. He's a listed AFL player and like all draftees has only a few years to demonstrate that he's capable of reaching AFL standard. So far, I'm just not seeing it.

As for the Nick Smith comparison. "Smooch" was drafted onto the rookie list in 2007, debuted in the senior side in 2008, was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2008 & was a regular in the senior side by 2009. His career trajectory wasn't one game .... but it was steep.

Nick Smith was also proof that umpires have no idea. Zero Brownlow votes across a brilliant career ... and there wasn't even a Daicos in sight.

 

[rustycrate]

He (Kirk) has been playing the small defender role for a few weeks now (at least).

I want him to succeed - I honestly do! But to say he's a development player is a bit of a stretch. He's a listed AFL player and like all draftees has only a few years to demonstrate that he's capable of reaching AFL standard. So far, I'm just not seeing it.

As for the Nick Smith comparison. "Smooch" was drafted onto the rookie list in 2007, debuted in the senior side in 2008, was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2008 & was a regular in the senior side by 2009. His career trajectory wasn't one game .... but it was steep.

Nick Smith was also proof that umpires have no idea. Zero Brownlow votes across a brilliant career ... and there wasn't even a Daicos in sight.

It is the first time I have seen him played as a small defender. A whole game.
I thought he was competent. Average.

 

[liz]

He (Kirk) has been playing the small defender role for a few weeks now (at least).

I want him to succeed - I honestly do! But to say he's a development player is a bit of a stretch. He's a listed AFL player and like all draftees has only a few years to demonstrate that he's capable of reaching AFL standard. So far, I'm just not seeing it.

As for the Nick Smith comparison. "Smooch" was drafted onto the rookie list in 2007, debuted in the senior side in 2008, was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2008 & was a regular in the senior side by 2009. His career trajectory wasn't one game .... but it was steep.

Nick Smith was also proof that umpires have no idea. Zero Brownlow votes across a brilliant career ... and there wasn't even a Daicos in sight.

You can be on the list (especially the rookie list) and still be a development player. Means you need to develop before cracking senior footy. Hewett spent two full seasons before making his debut. Dawson spent substantially all of three seasons in the reserves before really getting senior opportunities. Ditto Grundy, ignoring his mostly ineffectual games hiding from Barry Hall in the forward line (debut game excepted).

Smith made his debut in his second season (and didn’t look quite ready). That’s still nearly a whole extra season compared to where Kirk is now. Kieren Jack was line ball to be delisted at that the end of his first year, survived and followed a similar trajectory to Smith.

Kirk might not make it. More don’t than do. But some seem keen to jump to quick (premature?) conclusions on young players before they’ve had much time at all.

And l, like Rusty, haven’t seen him play as a small lockdown defender before. Maybe neither of us has been paying attention…

 

[Kiama Chris]

You can be on the list (especially the rookie list) and still be a development player. Means you need to develop before cracking senior footy. Hewett spent two full seasons before making his debut. Dawson spent substantially all of three seasons in the reserves before really getting senior opportunities. Ditto Grundy, ignoring his mostly ineffectual games hiding from Barry Hall in the forward line (debut game excepted).

Smith made his debut in his second season (and didn’t look quite ready). That’s still nearly a whole extra season compared to where Kirk is now. Kieren Jack was line ball to be delisted at that the end of his first year, survived and followed a similar trajectory to Smith.

Kirk might not make it. More don’t than do. But some seem keen to jump to quick (premature?) conclusions on young players before they’ve had much time at all.

And l, like Rusty, haven’t seen him play as a small lockdown defender before. Maybe neither of us has been paying attention…

The only player I can think of in recent memory who debuted immediately and played at full on AFL standard in his career position is Tom Papley.
Gulden, Campbell and McDonald debuted immediately but had a fair bit of development in them (still do IMO).
Anyone starting in VFL is a development player.
Very semantic area.

 

[Kbroome]

The only player I can think of in recent memory who debuted immediately and played at full on AFL standard in his career position is Tom Papley.
Gulden, Campbell and McDonald debuted immediately but had a fair bit of development in them (still do IMO).
Anyone starting in VFL is a development player.
Very semantic area.

I think also one of the reasons people are a little bit more iffy on Kirk is because he is an over ager and played 9 VFL games before he was drafted.

Still think he should get another year to make it to 3 years and a second AFL PS where he can hopefully take the next step that we are seeing out of third year guys in Roberts & Corey and also a similar path to that of WEdwards

 

[Dubai Quacker]

The only player I can think of in recent memory who debuted immediately and played at full on AFL standard in his career position is Tom Papley.
Gulden, Campbell and McDonald debuted immediately but had a fair bit of development in them (still do IMO).
Anyone starting in VFL is a development player.
Very semantic area.

True.

I tend to think of “development players” as those from non-AFL backgrounds who are still in the learning phase. Your Mike Pyke, CoR, McAndrew types.

As for Kirk - the fact that he’s being tried as a small defender may (?) be because he hasn’t been cutting it in the mids, so it’s an attempt to find a role that he “clicks” in. And it might work.

However, young players must get delisted every year. Based on performances so far this year, I’d find it hard to justify keeping Kirk on the list ahead of some of the other young players. Common consensus seems to be that Vickery is gone. His recent performances have been superior to Kirk …. which leads me to wonder …. is the surname affecting people’s views?

 

[Kiama Chris]

True.

I tend to think of “development players” as those from non-AFL backgrounds who are still in the learning phase. Your Mike Pyke, CoR, McAndrew types.

As for Kirk - the fact that he’s being tried as a small defender may (?) be because he hasn’t been cutting it in the mids, so it’s an attempt to find a role that he “clicks” in. And it might work.

However, young players must get delisted every year. Based on performances so far this year, I’d find it hard to justify keeping Kirk on the list ahead of some of the other young players. Common consensus seems to be that Vickery is gone. His recent performances have been superior to Kirk …. which leads me to wonder …. is the surname affecting people’s views?

At the time I felt there appeared to be other players in similar circumstances who had more to offer than Kirk. Cabor springs to mind.
Bit of a catch 22 here in that we will have to free up at least 3 draft spots (assuming we want to keep Hanily which seems likely), possibly one for Stretch, plus at least one rookie spot which is going to put a lot of pressure on fringe players who we don't see playing seniors in the medium term.
For mine Konstanty, Vickery, Reid, Arnold and Magor, all of whom have had two years + will be the ones to go. Kirk has only had a year.

 

[Kbroome]

I think we will see Francis Reid Arnold Magor and Konstanty go leaving us with 4 list spots available and with 35 main spots i reckon we could go with 3 national picks and then 1 rookie spot.

 

[SeanM]

True.

I tend to think of “development players” as those from non-AFL backgrounds who are still in the learning phase. Your Mike Pyke, CoR, McAndrew types.

As for Kirk - the fact that he’s being tried as a small defender may (?) be because he hasn’t been cutting it in the mids, so it’s an attempt to find a role that he “clicks” in. And it might work.

However, young players must get delisted every year. Based on performances so far this year, I’d find it hard to justify keeping Kirk on the list ahead of some of the other young players. Common consensus seems to be that Vickery is gone. His recent performances have been superior to Kirk …. which leads me to wonder …. is the surname affecting people’s views?

Kirk being a Cat B rookie probably counts in his favour. I am not sure we can guarantee that Cochran makes it to the rookie draft. And I am not sure what the other academy alternatives would be. Unless they look at overage players like Cabor or Rider.

I can't remember what the recruiters rationale for drafting Kirk was. But Kirk does seem fairly versatile. Can play mids at VFL level. But also possibly as small forward or small defender. Maybe they see some trait that would make him a effective lockdown small defender or disciplined small forward.

 

[liz]

The only player I can think of in recent memory who debuted immediately and played at full on AFL standard in his career position is Tom Papley.
Gulden, Campbell and McDonald debuted immediately but had a fair bit of development in them (still do IMO).
Anyone starting in VFL is a development player.
Very semantic area.

Not sure I agree on Gulden. He may not have come in and played at current levels from day one but he was pretty damn fine. He never lost his spot in the senior team other than via injury. And I think he came back into the senior team straight away once his first year injury was resolved.

Heeney and Mills (who debuted the same game as Papley) are others who impacted immediately.

Sam Wicks was taken as an overager who hadn't been a clear standout at NEAFL level pre-draft, and who took another full year before he debuted and longer to become a fairly regular senior player, but is eking out a senior career. Will Edwards has had two years in the VFL now after being taken as an overager. Aliir was drafted as an overager and spent a full two years at reserves level before making his debut, and the best part of another season before he was established as a senior regular.

 

[Adnico26Parker]

I think we will see Francis Reid Arnold Magor and Konstanty go leaving us with 4 list spots available and with 35 main spots i reckon we could go with 3 national picks and then 1 rookie spot.

Why Arnold?

From McKirdy’s piece this AM:

The Swans are big fans of Arnold’s ability coming out of defence. Hit by a long-term injury, he finally got back on the field in recent weeks and will be looking to impress enough to earn a new deal.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Not sure I agree on Gulden. He may not have come in and played at current levels from day one but he was pretty damn fine. He never lost his spot in the senior team other than via injury. And I think he came back into the senior team straight away once his first year injury was resolved.

Heeney and Mills (who debuted the same game as Papley) are others who impacted immediately.

Sam Wicks was taken as an overager who hadn't been a clear standout at NEAFL level pre-draft, and who took another full year before he debuted and longer to become a fairly regular senior player, but is eking out a senior career. Will Edwards has had two years in the VFL now after being taken as an overager. Aliir was drafted as an overager and spent a full two years at reserves level before making his debut, and the best part of another season before he was established as a senior regular.

Gulden made me think a lot. McDonald too, though not Campbell, who still hasn't settled.
It totally depends on the definition. In my mind it's "a player drafted with an expectation that they will develop skills and capabilities sufficient to play AFL football on a consistent basis".
TBH I had completely forgotten Mills and Heeney, though it could be argued they were developing in seniors but that would be way too picky.
Edwards I think is a classic development player.
Trading is of course normally for readymades.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Why Arnold?

From McKirdy’s piece this AM:

The Swans are big fans of Arnold’s ability coming out of defence. Hit by a long-term injury, he finally got back on the field in recent weeks and will be looking to impress enough to earn a new deal.

The problem I have working out who is likely to go is that other than Reid, whose body is surely shot, no-one is a standout delisting. It's more a case of who is left without a chair when the music stops. We have chosen to use Francis ahead of Hamling or Arnold which suggests he has "dibs" but Hamling, Edwards and Snell are contracted next year. My take on Arnold FWIW.

 

[Adnico26Parker]

The problem I have working out who is likely to go is that other than Reid, whose body is surely shot, no-one is a standout delisting. It's more a case of who is left without a chair when the music stops. We have chosen to use Francis ahead of Hamling or Arnold which suggests he has "dibs" but Hamling, Edwards and Snell are contracted next year. My take on Arnold FWIW.

To be fair, Arnold only just played his first game of the year last week after coming back from back surgery

 

[Adnico26Parker]

I wonder if Charlie McCartin will be back for any of the last 4 games of the season?

 

[Kbroome]

To be fair, Arnold only just played his first game of the year last week after coming back from back surgery

I feel like Arnold might just be an unlucky case of being injured at the wrong time

 

[Adnico26Parker]

I feel like Arnold might just be an unlucky case of being injured at the wrong time

Who do you replace him with then? 25 y/o, 195cm key defender

 

[Kbroome]

Who do you replace him with then? 25 y/o, 195cm key defender

Honestly there isn't many you could replace him with other than like Howard as a depth option or you start the process again of more development of youngsters but also you could move Hamling back (I wouldn't) and then go and find another key forward in the draft? Also given he is 25 and he isn't AFL quality atm do we really see him breaking into the AFL or is this the peak for him?

Would effectively be Francis and Arnold out for Hamling and Cochran and then draft a key forward to replace Hamling moving into the backline as previously mentioned.

 

[Adnico26Parker]

Honestly there isn't many you could replace him with other than like Howard as a depth option or you start the process again of more development of youngsters but also you could move Hamling back (I wouldn't) and then go and find another key forward in the draft? Also given he is 25 and he isn't AFL quality atm do we really see him breaking into the AFL or is this the peak for him?

Would effectively be Francis and Arnold out for Hamling and Cochran and then draft a key forward to replace Hamling moving into the backline as previously mentioned.

Hamling likely won’t be on the list beyond next year, so we would be a defender short in 2026, and Cochran who could be 2-3 years away from a debut.

 

[Kbroome]

Hamling likely won’t be on the list beyond next year, so we would be a defender short in 2026, and Cochran who could be 2-3 years away from a debut.

But we will have Edwards and Snell ready by then so it will be negated if Hamling is done. Just don't think Arnold is made for it and would rather have Buller over Arnold in the future

 

[liz]

I thought Arnold was just starting to show he might have “it” in the last couple of VFL games last season. He’s not had a chance yet to progress this year. I guess he’s got a month or so to convince the list management brigade he is worth keeping. It maybe an uphill battle with the improvement of Edwards and the arrival of Snell but I doubt any final decisions have yet been made.

 

[Kbroome]

I thought Arnold was just starting to show he might have “it” in the last couple of VFL games last season. He’s not had a chance yet to progress this year. I guess he’s got a month or so to convince the list management brigade he is worth keeping. It maybe an uphill battle with the improvement of Edwards and the arrival of Snell but I doubt any final decisions have yet been made.

Could almost be a battle between Vickery and Arnold for the last spot on the list and they have a month to prove they are better than the other. And whoever is delisted will get replaced in the draft

 

[grimlock]

INS: Nic Shipley, Ben Ashley-Cooper, James Lugsidn, Ned Hawkins
OUTS: Willem Smit, Koby Grass, Tom Hanily (ankle), Ben Edwards (quad)

Losing Hanily and B.Edwards will hurt, but we'll still have 16 listed players

 

[Kbroome]

INS: Nic Shipley, Ben Ashley-Cooper, James Lugsidn, Ned Hawkins
OUTS: Willem Smit, Koby Grass, Tom Hanily (ankle), Ben Edwards (quad)

Losing Hanily and B.Edwards will hurt, but we'll still have 16 listed players

Seriously i swear whenever someone gets good form in the VFL they have an injury thats like the 6th time its happened this year