Player Watch #34: Jack Graham - MOVED TO WCE - PICK 42 Received

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He gets clean possessions bc he's getting most of his disposals away from the contest bc players pay no respect to him. He just grazes around the paddock looking for a nice clover patch. He has no hurt factor offensively unless the ball falls accidentally into his arms like last week. Defensively he's becoming extinct also bc he' cannot keep up. He's a future VFL player bc of his DNA being a descendant of Mr. Plod.
 
Grrr said:
14 possessions for a player who roams the length of the ground is pretty slim. He does not make mistakes as the % points out, 3.5 touches a Q is hardly something to hang your hat on as a mid/forward.
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Was a pretty low possesion game all round. In a game where kicking efficiency was horrible and goals were hard to come by apart from a few minutes, you'd take that game from JGTI every day.
 

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Grrr said:
14 possessions for a player who roams the length of the ground is pretty slim. He does not make mistakes as the % points out, 3.5 touches a Q is hardly something to hang your hat on as a mid/forward.
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If he was roaming around the ground simply looking for possessions, then yes, 14 possessions would be low.

But he isn't, and some old codgers here cannot understand that, because the way football teams work these days has passed them by. TigerImposter Left them standing flat footed, so to speak. :)
 
Meteoric Rise said:
If he was roaming around the ground simply looking for possessions, then yes, 14 possessions would be low.

But he isn't, and some old codgers here cannot understand that, because the way football teams work these days has passed them by. TigerImposter Left them standing flat footed, so to speak. :)
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And those same old codgers have followed football for and awful long time and have seen a lot of football styles come and go, a lot of players come and go and can make value judgements on players without being condescended to by those who think they know more.

I watched half the game and left the pub because we were so awful and the game was so boring and frustrating. We are an very average side on yesterday's performance, and Graham played his usual average game. We will not challenge any of the top sides until we lift across the board, including Graham.
 
Grrr said:
And those same old codgers have followed football for and awful long time and have seen a lot of football styles come and go, a lot of players come and go and can make value judgements on players without being condescended to by those who think they know more.

I watched half the game and left the pub because we were so awful and the game was so boring and frustrating. We are an very average side on yesterday's performance, and Graham played his usual average game. We will not challenge any of the top sides until we lift across the board, including Graham.
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I agree with your thoughts, but I stuck it out in hope we would improve. Nothing changed and unless a miracle happens and new blood is injected into the team replacing JGTI and friends then we'll be not challenging anything in the near future.
 
Grrr said:
And those same old codgers have followed football for and awful long time and have seen a lot of football styles come and go, a lot of players come and go and can make value judgements on players without being condescended to by those who think they know more.

I watched half the game and left the pub because we were so awful and the game was so boring and frustrating. We are an very average side on yesterday's performance, and Graham played his usual average game. We will not challenge any of the top sides until we lift across the board, including Graham.
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It is clear that Graham's pressure acts, contested possessions, free kicks both for and against, clearances, tackles, metres gained & disposals are all down on career average this season. Yet his clangers are also well down, his score involvements, goals and goal assists are all at or above career average.

It would be interesting to know what has caused these shifts. I don't buy that a 25yo maintains a level until he is 24 then falls off a cliff. Unless he is not physically 100% due to some niggle. He is clearly doing less time in the middle, so it is probably that simple, his role has changed meaning he is in the thick of the action less often. It is pretty obvious with the addition of Taranto and Hopper that Graham has been moved away from the contest to focus purely on his transition play. And he must be doing the role well enough, because he is getting selected....it is up to other players to master his role well enough to take his place. Who are you selecting ahead of him in his role?
 
Meteoric Rise said:
It is clear that Graham's pressure acts, contested possessions, free kicks both for and against, clearances, tackles, metres gained & disposals are all down on career average this season. Yet his clangers are also well down, his score involvements, goals and goal assists are all at or above career average.

It would be interesting to know what has caused these shifts. I don't buy that a 25yo maintains a level until he is 24 then falls off a cliff. Unless he is not physically 100% due to some niggle. He is clearly doing less time in the middle, so it is probably that simple, his role has changed meaning he is in the thick of the action less often. It is pretty obvious with the addition of Taranto and Hopper that Graham has been moved away from the contest to focus purely on his transition play. And he must be doing the role well enough, because he is getting selected....it is up to other players to master his role well enough to take his place. Who are you selecting ahead of him in his role?
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He's been found out MR as he's now in an inferior side and the blokes that carried him can't carry him no longer. His DE being high is bc his contested work is down. He hasn't progressed and that's why he's a list clogger.
 
TigerImposter said:
I agree with your thoughts, but I stuck it out in hope we would improve. Nothing changed and unless a miracle happens and new blood is injected into the team replacing JGTI and friends then we'll be not challenging anything in the near future.
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Same here .. stuck it out, but other than North, I’m not sure who we beat playing like that.
FFS … West Coast is a pure rabble and only going backwards by the week.
We were miles off ‘convincing’. The usual suspects carried us while the usual one in five and one in six game performers did their thing.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
It is clear that Graham's pressure acts, contested possessions, free kicks both for and against, clearances, tackles, metres gained & disposals are all down on career average this season. Yet his clangers are also well down, his score involvements, goals and goal assists are all at or above career average.

It would be interesting to know what has caused these shifts. I don't buy that a 25yo maintains a level until he is 24 then falls off a cliff. Unless he is not physically 100% due to some niggle. He is clearly doing less time in the middle, so it is probably that simple, his role has changed meaning he is in the thick of the action less often. It is pretty obvious with the addition of Taranto and Hopper that Graham has been moved away from the contest to focus purely on his transition play. And he must be doing the role well enough, because he is getting selected....it is up to other players to master his role well enough to take his place. Who are you selecting ahead of him in his role?
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Graham is playing the same role he has pretty much always played. Has played very few games as a full time mid since his first year. Dusty, Prestia, Cotchin, Edwards and co. were in there before him. When he did go in there he did well in a few games (30 odd a few times), but due to the players mentioned, he didn't get much pure midfield time.

He along with Lambert both played that role of covering for Dusty, who when in the midfield rarely went back. Because both he and Lambert were such great gut runners, they could get up and down the ground so well. Hence Graham's clearance numbers are low to average, he got a lot of ball on the overlap. He is a very neat user of the ball so that will never change.

But he has dropped a yard in that gut running fitness/pace, and as TI mentioned, we do not have the elite distributors to feed his run and carry these days. Our ball movement is much slower so he doesn't get it as much. But he is still pretty dangerous when he gets it because he is hard to tackle and uses the ball very conservatively so rarely makes mistakes. Basically he is still a good player, and has played some good games in the last month or so, but has also played some quiet ones.

The argument I think, and probably have for a good while, do we have better options in that role. Not sure but Bolton and Martin play a fair bit of footy across the half forward line. Cumberland will if he comes good, and he has a lot of upside if he does. Mansell has improved. Sonsie is class and could play that run and overlapping player. Coultard has real wheels and covers a lot of ground and looks classy. Ross has played very well at HF. Baker is playing forward, Clarke is going to get better. So there is a fair few players for not many spots. New coach might not have the loyalty factor either.
 
Grrr said:
Graham is playing the same role he has pretty much always played. Has played very few games as a full time mid since his first year. Dusty, Prestia, Cotchin, Edwards and co. were in there before him. When he did go in there he did well in a few games (30 odd a few times), but due to the players mentioned, he didn't get much pure midfield time.

He along with Lambert both played that role of covering for Dusty, who when in the midfield rarely went back. Because both he and Lambert were such great gut runners, they could get up and down the ground so well. Hence Graham's clearance numbers are low to average, he got a lot of ball on the overlap. He is a very neat user of the ball so that will never change.

But he has dropped a yard in that gut running fitness/pace, and as TI mentioned, we do not have the elite distributors to feed his run and carry these days. Our ball movement is much slower so he doesn't get it as much. But he is still pretty dangerous when he gets it because he is hard to tackle and uses the ball very conservatively so rarely makes mistakes. Basically he is still a good player, and has played some good games in the last month or so, but has also played some quiet ones.

The argument I think, and probably have for a good while, do we have better options in that role. Not sure but Bolton and Martin play a fair bit of footy across the half forward line. Cumberland will if he comes good, and he has a lot of upside if he does. Mansell has improved. Sonsie is class and could play that run and overlapping player. Coultard has real wheels and covers a lot of ground and looks classy. Ross has played very well at HF. Baker is playing forward, Clarke is going to get better. So there is a fair few players for not many spots. New coach might not have the loyalty factor either.
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It may not be the loyalty factor getting JGTI selected. It may be cold hard facts.

In my experience you don't drop a yard in pace between 24yo and 25yo unless there is some other reason for it like carrying an injury. The reduction in pace more likely comes after age 30 or as a result of cumulative injuries. I really don't think it is likely.

Graham's role/s have changed a bit from the last 2 seasons at least. He has gone from attending average 7 centre bounces per game to and average of 1. It is pretty clear why that would be - the arrival of Taranto and Hopper. So you would expect that to reduce his contested and tackle numbers, and it has.

I think after his current contract, he will either:

a) carry on playing for us on $300-350 pa, or

b) get a better offer than that from another club and go, allowing us to replace him with a $250k player for a time and netting us a pick in the late 30's to early 40's as compensation.
 

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Meteoric Rise said:
It may not be the loyalty factor getting JGTI selected. It may be cold hard facts.

In my experience you don't drop a yard in pace between 24yo and 25yo unless there is some other reason for it like carrying an injury. The reduction in pace more likely comes after age 30 or as a result of cumulative injuries. I really don't think it is likely.

Graham's role/s have changed a bit from the last 2 seasons at least. He has gone from attending average 7 centre bounces per game to and average of 1. It is pretty clear why that would be - the arrival of Taranto and Hopper. So you would expect that to reduce his contested and tackle numbers, and it has.

I think after his current contract, he will either:

a) carry on playing for us on $300-350 pa, or

b) get a better offer than that from another club and go, allowing us to replace him with a $250k player for a time and netting us a pick in the late 30's to early 40's as compensation.
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I think his centre average was skewed a bit due to him playing quite a few games in his mid career as a purely centre mid. We had a lot of injuries at times, Prestia, Martin, Edwards all missed large chunks at times, Bolton was not ready. So he had more opportunity. In a full side, he didn't often play midfield. Taranto and Hopper are similar in many respects, hence the importance of Bolton in there to add speed.

Some players lose a bit of pace due to injuries, especially foot injuries as he has had. Graham was never really quick, but could run at his top speed for long periods, as good as anyone going around. He gut running enables him to push from contest to contest, to do that you need to be super fit, which he wasn't earlier in the year. Starting to get to that level now.

I think there was the loyalty factor earlier in the year when he wasn't performing. Dimma backs in his man. But he has had some good games so not in the drop zone right now, but he was quiet on the weekend, like he was a few weeks ago. Having one of those seasons, will be interesting to see how he responds.
 
GhostofJimJess said:
Sloppy start by the big fella with a pretty bad missed goal early on, but came good when the chips were down and looked like he'd re-discovered some of his best pack-busting form.
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When you finish up with 21 touches, 8 tackles a goal and 3 goal assists, and a game high 10 score involvements, I think we are entitled to say he has had a really good game overall. TigerImposter and Grrr will be fuming. :)

Edit: Throw in 5 clearances into the bargain. In before TI describes his stats as misleading. :tearsofjoy:
 
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GhostofJimJess said:
Sloppy start by the big fella with a pretty bad missed goal early on, but came good when the chips were down and looked like he'd re-discovered some of his best pack-busting form.
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I thought he played a better game today than he did 2 weeks ago when he helped win the game against Sydney. Worked hard, linked up well and most importantly used the ball well.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
When you finish up with 21 touches, 8 tackles a goal and 3 goal assists, and a game high 10 score involvements, I think we are entitled to say he has had a really good game overall. TigerImposter and Grrr will be fuming. :)

Edit: Throw in 5 clearances into the bargain. In before TI describes his stats as misleading. :tearsofjoy:
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He was poor for 2.5quarters , but he had a lot of mates. Was an ok game from the Walrus , but we can’t carry 7-8 blokes in the team that are slow as the better sides will beat us by 13 goals like Brisbane did.
 
TigerImposter said:
He was poor for 2.5quarters , but he had a lot of mates. Was an ok game from the Walrus , but we can’t carry 7-8 blokes in the team that are slow as the better sides will beat us by 13 goals like Brisbane did.
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To finish with a game high 10 score involvements after being poor for 2.5 quarters just shows this bloke is an explosive match winner who can turn a game on its cranium in 1.5 quarters. :)
 
Meteoric Rise said:
To finish with a game high 10 score involvements after being poor for 2.5 quarters just shows this bloke is an explosive match winner who can turn a game on its cranium in 1.5 quarters. :)
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He was just part of the link up work and not hard to get involved in a SI against a young side that faded like the Winter Sun. We played the 16th side which is about his level. Nothing to see and grab the win and focus on Melbourne next week and save your chest beating for a rainy day.;):moustache:
 
Meteoric Rise said:
When you finish up with 21 touches, 8 tackles a goal and 3 goal assists, and a game high 10 score involvements, I think we are entitled to say he has had a really good game overall. TigerImposter and Grrr will be fuming. :)

Edit: Throw in 5 clearances into the bargain. In before TI describes his stats as misleading. :tearsofjoy:
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Go back over my posts and read them again, the latest just 8 posts above.. I have always said that when he is up and running he is a good player and best 22. I have also acknowledged that he has now 3 x 20 disposals in his last 6 weeks or so, so he was building back into form. I have also criticised him when he has had games of 11, 9, etc.

I also called for Coulthard to debut 2 weeks ago, because our forward line was so static and to do something different. Good on Graham for having a good game, always valued his gut running and overlap and his generally good use of the ball.
 
Grrr said:
Good on Graham for having a good game, always valued his gut running and overlap and his generally good use of the ball.
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He did have a great game. Just now has to continue doing it every week.
 
This is the problem with the current team as the reason why we're so slow and it's bc we're carrying too many JGTI .
We have JGTI, Cotchin, Hopper, Taranto, KMac, Pickett and Prestia. I personally believe we can only carry three of them.
Looking into 2024 Cotchin is the only guy that will be missing so that leaves six slow mid/wings and i rate them

Taranto>>Prestia>Hopper>>>>JGTI>Pickett>>kmac

So he's on the cusp of not being in my best 22 and probably a sub at best which would be suited to him as like yesterday when the young Hawks tired his big cheeks kept moving at his initial speed. He runs at the same pace all day which is his strength, but also his Achilles at the start of games.
The reality is I see him as a short term player and hopefully some club finds a use for him.
 
TigerImposter said:
This is the problem with the current team as the reason why we're so slow and it's bc we're carrying too many JGTI .
We have JGTI, Cotchin, Hopper, Taranto, KMac, Pickett and Prestia. I personally believe we can only carry three of them.
Looking into 2024 Cotchin is the only guy that will be missing so that leaves six slow mid/wings and i rate them

Taranto>>Prestia>Hopper>>>>JGTI>Pickett>>kmac

So he's on the cusp of not being in my best 22 and probably a sub at best which would be suited to him as like yesterday when the young Hawks tired his big cheeks kept moving at his initial speed. He runs at the same pace all day which is his strength, but also his Achilles at the start of games.
The reality is I see him as a short term player and hopefully some club finds a use for him.
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That's a pretty fair assessment and but for a great last Q, we would all be saying the same thing after losing to the 3rd bottom side, who cut us up for long periods of the game with their speed and run. Coulthard showed what some genuine speed and talent can do, Banks also. So when the team is named next week, those two should be in the side.
 
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Player Watch #34: Jack Graham - MOVED TO WCE - PICK 42 Received

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