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List Mgmt. Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread
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OK, let's try and get this thread back on track. (FWIW in the words of Popeye, "I am who I am" - and in my case no-one else).
Here's a picture of our rebuild in a spreadsheet. I'd like to do the same for Brisbane over '16/'17/'18 to get a feel for whether we can emulate their rebuild and go from 15th to top 4. Interestingly, the 5 players who made their Crows debut in 2017 are no longer on our list - Gallucci, Menzel, Beech, Keath and Hampton.
The class of 2016 draftees was a big fizzer too. Only Himmelberg remains. Shows number of games played in each of '19/'20/'21.
Accuracy not guaranteed, corrections welcome. Didn't bother looking up the first year for most of the players no longer on the list. First year column is a bit of a mix between debut year (some 2018 and earlier) and first year on the list (some 2018 and later).
25 players moved on over 3 years (assuming Davis doesn't come back).
Only O'Connor and Crocker have been picked up and moved on in the Nicks era.
There is a core of 20 players still on the list from the 2019 list. 7 of those were untried by end of 2019 (McPherson, Fogarty, Butts, McHenry, Sholl, Hamill and Strachan). All of those except Strachan have now played 24 or more games.
Ignoring the Crocker and O'Connor fails, 5 of the 2020 additions have been well tested. Big ticks for Keays and Schoenberg; McAdam, Frampton and McAsey need further work. Worrell and Gollant each given a taster.
Rowe, Berry, Thilthorpe and Murray all played 13+ games in this their first year on the list.
I think it is only Borlase, Newchurch and Parnell yet to play AFL on our list prior to the draft.
Fully fit I would see the bolded players being the 'best 24' ignoring team balance; a good core with solid depth, and I'm pretty optimistic for next year. That said, we would still be very injury vulnerable.
If you disagree with my best 24, tell me which of them would be left out of the R1 '22 side if match fit. I'm not sure who I'd leave out and who would be sub if they were all fit. Hopefully at least one of our draftees will have a big pre-season and demand R1 selection too.
EDIT - Doodee and Himmelberg first years corrected, zero games played in 2017.
Here's a picture of our rebuild in a spreadsheet. I'd like to do the same for Brisbane over '16/'17/'18 to get a feel for whether we can emulate their rebuild and go from 15th to top 4. Interestingly, the 5 players who made their Crows debut in 2017 are no longer on our list - Gallucci, Menzel, Beech, Keath and Hampton.
The class of 2016 draftees was a big fizzer too. Only Himmelberg remains. Shows number of games played in each of '19/'20/'21.
Accuracy not guaranteed, corrections welcome. Didn't bother looking up the first year for most of the players no longer on the list. First year column is a bit of a mix between debut year (some 2018 and earlier) and first year on the list (some 2018 and later).
25 players moved on over 3 years (assuming Davis doesn't come back).
Only O'Connor and Crocker have been picked up and moved on in the Nicks era.
There is a core of 20 players still on the list from the 2019 list. 7 of those were untried by end of 2019 (McPherson, Fogarty, Butts, McHenry, Sholl, Hamill and Strachan). All of those except Strachan have now played 24 or more games.
Ignoring the Crocker and O'Connor fails, 5 of the 2020 additions have been well tested. Big ticks for Keays and Schoenberg; McAdam, Frampton and McAsey need further work. Worrell and Gollant each given a taster.
Rowe, Berry, Thilthorpe and Murray all played 13+ games in this their first year on the list.
I think it is only Borlase, Newchurch and Parnell yet to play AFL on our list prior to the draft.
Fully fit I would see the bolded players being the 'best 24' ignoring team balance; a good core with solid depth, and I'm pretty optimistic for next year. That said, we would still be very injury vulnerable.
If you disagree with my best 24, tell me which of them would be left out of the R1 '22 side if match fit. I'm not sure who I'd leave out and who would be sub if they were all fit. Hopefully at least one of our draftees will have a big pre-season and demand R1 selection too.
| Player | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | First year | Last year |
| Betts | 21 | T | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Keath | 18 | T | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Greenwood | 14 | T | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Jenkins | 11 | T | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Jacobs | 5 | T | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Douglas | 9 | R | 1 | 2019 | ||
| Otten | 3 | R | 1 | 2019 | ||
| B Crouch | 22 | 12 | F | 1 | 2020 | |
| Hartigan | 19 | 12 | F | 1 | 2020 | |
| Stengle | 2 | 12 | D | 1 | 2020 | |
| Poholke | 2 | 5 | D | 1 | 2020 | |
| Atkins | 20 | 4 | F | 1 | 2020 | |
| Gibbs | 12 | 3 | R | 1 | 2020 | |
| Knight | 15 | 1 | F | 1 | 2020 | |
| Gallucci | 10 | 0 | D | 1 | 2020 | |
| Wilson | 1 | 0 | D | 1 | 2020 | |
| Taylor | 0 | 0 | D | 1 | 2020 | |
| Kelly | 22 | 15 | 20 | F | 1 | 2021 |
| Mackay | 18 | 10 | 18 | R | 1 | 2021 |
| Lynch | 16 | 13 | 12 | D | 1 | 2021 |
| Davis | 1 | 1 | 4 | D? | 1 | 2021 |
| Talia | 22 | 14 | 0 | R | 1 | 2021 |
| Sloane | 22 | 12 | 18 | 2009 | ||
| Walker | 22 | 14 | 17 | 2009 | ||
| Smith | 22 | 16 | 21 | 2011 | ||
| Brown | 15 | 17 | 11 | 2012 | ||
| Laird | 22 | 17 | 22 | 2013 | ||
| M Crouch | 19 | 16 | 0 | 2014 | ||
| Seedsman | 13 | 9 | 22 | 2015 | ||
| O'Brien | 18 | 17 | 20 | 2016 | ||
| Milera | 17 | 2 | 0 | 2016 | ||
| Doedee | 1 | 9 | 21 | 2017 | ||
| Murphy | 21 | 12 | 15 | 2018 | ||
| Himmelberg | 7 | 11 | 8 | 2017 | ||
| McPherson | 0 | 9 | 18 | 2018 | ||
| Fogarty | 0 | 10 | 17 | 2018 | ||
| Hunter | 0 | D | 2019 | 2019 | ||
| Butts | 0 | 2 | 22 | 2019 | ||
| McHenry | 0 | 8 | 21 | 2019 | ||
| Sholl | 0 | 8 | 19 | 2019 | ||
| Hamill | 0 | 8 | 17 | 2019 | ||
| Jones | 8 | 15 | 15 | 2019 | ||
| Strachan | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2019 | ||
| Crocker | A | 7 | D | 2020 | 2020 | |
| O'Connor | A | 0 | 3 | D | 2020 | 2021 |
| Keays | R | 16 | 22 | 2020 | ||
| Schoenberg | D | 8 | 22 | 2020 | ||
| McAdam | T | 13 | 15 | 2020 | ||
| Frampton | T | 5 | 10 | 2020 | ||
| Worrell | D | 0 | 1 | 2020 | ||
| Gollant | D | 0 | 1 | 2020 | ||
| McAsey | D | 10 | 0 | 2020 | ||
| Rowe | D | 19 | 2021 | |||
| Berry | D | 17 | 2021 | |||
| Thilthorpe | D | 14 | 2021 | |||
| Murray | M | 13 | 2021 | |||
| Cook | D | 3 | 2021 | |||
| Hately | T | 3 | 2021 | |||
| Pedlar | D | 2 | 2021 | |||
| Hinge | R | 1 | 2021 | |||
| Borlase | R(B) | 0 | 2021 | |||
| Newchurch | R(B) | 0 | 2021 | |||
| Parnell | M | 0 | 2021 | |||
| Dawson | T | 2022 |
EDIT - Doodee and Himmelberg first years corrected, zero games played in 2017.
Last edited:
Kane McGoodwin
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Nice work.
Only 9 players on our list for more than 4 years is a huge turnover!
Doubt many (any?) other teams would be in the same boat.
It's actually 11 players, Dood and Berg were on the list in 2017, but didn't play. It's because I got lazy and just checked the debut year for pre 2018 draftees.
OP corrected.
Kane McGoodwin
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Still a huge turnover!
Compare to the Cats & expect they would be at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Shows why we have that huge gap between Milera on 62 games and Brown on 178 games for the AFC. Only Crouch on 125 games in that range.
That group of players on 0 games for 2019 went a long way to making that gap.
That group of players on 0 games for 2019 went a long way to making that gap.
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Fair call, I think Skinner would also be a better call, could fit in to the AFL team, otherwise dominate the SANFL.
No point getting these older players.
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I think there's a LOT of point to getting some older players for the two's - the question is who and how many.
Golumless
A bigger deal out west.
There is a lot of point adding one senior player, but that's because Wrights position has opened up.
There is no point whatsoever adding any to our list though for the sake of having senior players playing the 2s. It doesn't achieve anything positive on field (seeing our SANFL teams competitiveness hinges on having as little top-ups playing as possible), we have enough senior players as is to drive standards and it's providing a trap that Nick's will inevitably fall for, after all, Frampton kept coming back despite being a potatoe this year. There is no doubt a senior player will get the same treatment due to how horrifically overvalued experience is.
The main way out of the rebuild is to double down on kids and go hard at making big acquisitions at the trade table.
I wonder if we do end up signing that Port player
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You can't just have 44 kids.
Besides the fact they'll suffer from lack of leadership on the ground (and all just be running around like headless chooks), you can't give all 44 players the opportunities they need.
Obviously, we need mature leadership in the senior side, but we need it in the twos as well.
OK, here's the same table for Brisbane. Because I can, I've filled in the numbers for Y4, which is 2022 for the Crows.
My conclusion is that there are a lot of similarities between the two clubs over the 3 years in question,
[TD valign="top"]Stat[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Ad[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Bri[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Core players[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]20[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]20[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Y1-3 players deleted[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]22[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]29[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Y1 additions (still listed Y4)[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]7[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]6[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Y1 class ave games over Y2/Y3[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]8.8[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]11.5[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Y2 additions [/TD]
[TD valign="top"]11*[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]9[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Y2 class ave games over Y3[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]6.5*[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]7.6[/TD]
However, the recruiting prior to their 2019 finals year is clearly what propelled them up the ladder.
Adding Lachie Neale, Jarrod Lyons, Linc McCarthy and Marcus Adams was always going to make a difference. Drafting Noah Answerth as well was icing.
Those 5 recruits collectively missed only 19 games in Brisbane's 2019 campaign.
Add Cameron, Rayner and Hodge recruited the year before and you have 8 players missing only 21 games between them. Take out 10 game Adams and it is 7 recruits over 2 years missing only 7 games between them. That's recruiting a third of your best 22 over 2 trade/draft periods.
Brisbane must have had an amazing run with injuries that year too. Their core group of 19 players only missed 21 games between them.
19 players - 435 games (82%)
16 players - 93 games. (18%)
Compare that to the Crows in 2019
19 players - 371 games (77%)
17 players - 113 games (23%)
I can't see Dawson and our top draft pick this year along with our class of 2020 making that sort of contribution. Might still be a few years away from finals.
| Player | 2016 | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 | First year | Last year |
| Hanley, P | 22 | T | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Merrett | 19 | R | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Green, J | 11 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Paine, J | 4 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| West | 4 | R | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Evans | 2 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Beasley | 0 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Clarke, J | 0 | R | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Watts, J | 0 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| McGrath, J | 0 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| McGuinness | 0 | D | 1 | 2016 | ||
| Schache | 17 | 10 | T | 1 | 2017 | |
| Frost | T | 2 | D | 2017 | 2017 | |
| Beams, D | 2 | 19 | 21 | T | 1 | 2018 |
| Mayes | 21 | 21 | 6 | T | 1 | 2018 |
| Barrett | 0 | 17 | 5 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Bell, T | 14 | 6 | 1 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Beams, C | 9 | 9 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Clayton | 2 | 0 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Close | 2 | 10 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Dawson | 7 | 1 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Freeman | 4 | 0 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Grewar | 0 | 0 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Hammelmann | 9 | 3 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Hanley, C | 0 | 0 | 0 | R | 1 | 2018 |
| Harwood | 13 | 9 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Jansen | 7 | 1 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Paparone | 4 | 6 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| William, R | 3 | 0 | 0 | D | 1 | 2018 |
| Gardiner | 18 | 19 | 20 | 24 | 1 | |
| Martin | 20 | 22 | 22 | 24 | 1 | |
| McStay | 12 | 19 | 19 | 24 | 1 | |
| Rich | 21 | 22 | 18 | 24 | 1 | |
| Zorko | 20 | 21 | 22 | 24 | 1 | |
| Hipwood | 10 | 20 | 22 | 23 | 1 | |
| Robinson | 21 | 7 | 19 | 23 | 1 | |
| Andrews | 17 | 22 | 18 | 21 | 1 | |
| Christensen | 11 | 0 | 22 | 13 | 1 | |
| Walker, J | 16 | 11 | 14 | 11 | 1 | |
| Lester | 19 | 22 | 15 | 9 | 1 | |
| Mathieson | 11 | 13 | 13 | 9 | 1 | |
| Robertson, N | 6 | 21 | 21 | 5 | 1 | |
| Taylor, L | 19 | 22 | 22 | 5 | 1 | |
| Bastinac | 22 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | |
| Cutler, T | 15 | 12 | 18 | 3 | 1 | |
| Allison | 0 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | |
| Keays | 16 | 10 | 2 | 2 | 1 | |
| Smith, A | 3 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 1 | |
| Bewick | 14 | 8 | 3 | 0 | 1 | |
| McLuggage | D | 18 | 22 | 23 | 2017 | |
| Witherden | D | 9 | 21 | 23 | 2017 | |
| McInerney | D | 0 | 16 | 21 | 2017 | |
| Berry, J | D | 16 | 21 | 20 | 2017 | |
| Cox, C | D | 8 | 4 | 1 | 2017 | |
| Eagles | D | 0 | 4 | 0 | 2017 | |
| Cameron | T | 11 | 24 | 2018 | ||
| Rayner | D | 22 | 24 | 2018 | ||
| Hodge | T | 19 | 22 | 2018 | ||
| Bailey, Z | D | 12 | 15 | 2018 | ||
| Hinge | R | 0 | 2 | 2018 | ||
| Starcevich | D | 4 | 1 | 2018 | ||
| Payne | D | 0 | 0 | 2018 | ||
| Wooller | D | 0 | 0 | 2018 | ||
| Ballenden | D | 0 | 0 | 2018 | ||
| Lyons | F | 24 | 2019 | |||
| McCarthy | T | 24 | 2019 | |||
| Neale | T | 24 | 2019 | |||
| Answerth | D | 19 | 2019 | |||
| Adams, M | T | 10 | 2019 | |||
| Smith, Ely | D | 0 | 2019 | |||
| Berry, Tom | D | 0 | 2019 | |||
| Joyce, Tom | D | 0 | 2019 | |||
| McFayden, C | D | 0 | 2019 |
If we wanted older players we should have kept Lynch, pretty much we are looking for youth and talent to fill positions of need, not depth, and may the best player win the spot in the firsts.
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Golumless
A bigger deal out west.
Of course you can't. Eventually people need to fail, and your lesser prospects fall by the wayside. It's irrelevant that they do as well.
I can guarantee if we recruited a senior guy to be depth in the 2s, he's playing in our 1s by round 10 and it has nothing to do with talent on our list either, and it's because of what you are suggesting. This mythical belief that experience makes one iota of difference to a team. Our reserves will be fine if the only leader we have on the field is our SANFL recruit, they were this year. Most of them are now 2-5 year players, they know the game plan inside and out (it does not take 7 years to learn one). The times they won't be fine is if we are racking up injuries and we have to deal with top-ups. That has nothing to do with leadership/experience either, most of our top-ups aren't SANFL calibre players.
It's both terrible and inexcusable for us to bringing in senior players on our list who do not drastically improve our best 22. We're just increasing the risk of failing our rebuild without any gain whatsoever.
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Should we be recruiting older top ups instead of mostly kids? Guys who's SANFL career is finishing up/finished and might see it as a pathway into the AFL coaching/development system
I know Chris Hall or whoever the Eagles guy we got was a fail but are we better off surrounding our draftees with a few more players of this type?
Better than using a list spot on a Lienert just to play reserves as well
I know Chris Hall or whoever the Eagles guy we got was a fail but are we better off surrounding our draftees with a few more players of this type?
Better than using a list spot on a Lienert just to play reserves as well
Rowie talked about us being in to Charlie Constable from Geelong. Who's he?
Was just coming here to question if any team is interested in him. I thought he would have had a lot of interest.
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WaynesWorld19
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That would be incredibly surprising
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