AUKUS

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Sphynx

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Jul 10, 2011
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Seems there's no dedicated thread to discuss historically one of the most important defence pacts of the last century, even world wide, given the sensitive IP now on the table between the three countries

With parts of the ADF defence review dropping in San Diego with Biden, Albo, Sunak in a few days, I thought a dedicated thread was worth while.

The following is the AFR's latest prediction regarding the submarine procurement makeup:

www.afr.com

Australia to buy up to five Virginia class subs as part of AUKUS

AUKUS will have multiple stages with at least one US submarine visiting Australian ports in the coming years and end in the late 2030s with a new class of submarines being built with British designs and American technology.
www.afr.com www.afr.com
Washington | Australia is expected to buy up to five US Virginia class nuclear-powered submarines in the 2030s as part of a landmark defence agreement between Washington, Canberra and London, four US officials said on Wednesday.
The agreement, known as the AUKUS pact, will have multiple stages with at least one US submarine visiting Australian ports in the coming years and end in the late 2030s with a new class of submarines being built with British designs and American technology, one of the officials said.
Click to expand...
A Virginia class submarine. Australia is expected to get an initial five of these under the AUKUS pact.

US President Joe Biden will host Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Britain’s Rishi Sunak in San Diego next week to chart a way forward for provision of the nuclear-powered submarines and other high-tech weaponry to Australia.
Two of the officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that after the annual port visits, the United States would forward deploy some submarines in Western Australia by around 2027.
In the early 2030s, Australia would buy three Virginia class submarines and have the option to buy two more.



The Pentagon referred queries to the White House, which declined to confirm details about any upcoming announcement.
AUKUS will be Australia’s biggest-ever defence project and offers the prospect of jobs in all three countries.
Click to expand...
 
Sphynx said:
Seems there's no dedicated thread to discuss historically one of the most important defence pacts of the last century, even world wide, given the sensitive IP now on the table between the three countries

With parts of the ADF defence review dropping in San Diego with Biden, Albo, Sunak in a few days, I thought a dedicated thread was worth while.

The following is the AFR's latest prediction regarding the submarine procurement makeup:

www.afr.com

Australia to buy up to five Virginia class subs as part of AUKUS

AUKUS will have multiple stages with at least one US submarine visiting Australian ports in the coming years and end in the late 2030s with a new class of submarines being built with British designs and American technology.
www.afr.com www.afr.com
Click to expand...
The Anglosphere fights back!

I'm really glad you used the word 'prediction' wrt the AFR article because at the moment there seems to be a lot of varying claims about what is going to happen. Something like 3 old Virginians, new build Astutes or the next gen UK SSN and a bucket of chips.
 

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CD Xbow said:
Yes, three old Virgins are bridging the gap and provide experience for our seamen.
Click to expand...

we have had US nuclear submarine commanders working with the ADF since 2013 training our guys. With our guys going to the US and cross pollination deployments on each others vessels. One of those submarine commanders was involved in the filming of Jaws......so not the youngest of men.
 
CD Xbow said:
The Anglosphere fights back!
Click to expand...

Yes let's tie ourselves to the dying British Empire that has become a laughing stock since 2016, and an American nation which is becoming increasingly fractured between two increasingly irreconcilable factions and the truth that 50% of the time their leader will be a moron appealing to some of the dumbest people on the planet.

And before the inevitable "CCP Shill!" comments I've always advocated our strongest ties should be with our near neighbours, the nations of ASEAN. This deal is for a 19th century world that doesn't exist anymore.
 
Schneebly11 said:
Yes let's tie ourselves to the dying British Empire that has become a laughing stock since 2016, and an American nation which is becoming increasingly fractured between two increasingly irreconcilable factions and the truth that 50% of the time their leader will be a moron appealing to some of the dumbest people on the planet.

And before the inevitable "CCP Shill!" comments I've always advocated our strongest ties should be with our near neighbours, the nations of ASEAN. This deal is for a 19th century world that doesn't exist anymore.
Click to expand...

Our closest military neighbour is the USA.
 
Schneebly11 said:
Yes let's tie ourselves to the dying British Empire that has become a laughing stock since 2016, and an American nation which is becoming increasingly fractured between two increasingly irreconcilable factions and the truth that 50% of the time their leader will be a moron appealing to some of the dumbest people on the planet.

And before the inevitable "CCP Shill!" comments I've always advocated our strongest ties should be with our near neighbours, the nations of ASEAN. This deal is for a 19th century world that doesn't exist anymore.
Click to expand...
What about the ASEAN nations who along with Japan India, Korea share an increasing fear of the pyshco in Beijing. Amazing how those with economic ties to Beijing like to ignore the non Anglo nations reactions to Xi.

Sent from my SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Last edited:
Rob R said:
The ASEAN nations who along with Japan India, Korea share an increasing fear of the pyshco in Beijing. Amazing how those whose economic ties to Beijing like to ignore the non Anglo nations reactions to Xi.

Sent from my SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...

Actually no:

www.reuters.com

Indonesia, Malaysia concerned over AUKUS nuclear subs plan

Malaysia and Indonesia share strong reservations over Australia's decision to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, even though nuclear weapons were not part of the plan, Malaysia's foreign minister said on Monday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

And the recent scaremongering about China has been dismissed by those without weapons manufacturer links:

www.9news.com.au

China 'sabre-rattling' of concern but threat of war unfounded, expert says

A media report claiming Australia faced a potential war with China within three years has been branded as "...
www.9news.com.au www.9news.com.au

Interesting to note 9 News also owns Age/SMH behind the recent "Red Alert" scare campaign. Basically calling out their own subsidiary news outlets.
 
Schneebly11 said:
Actually no:

www.reuters.com

Indonesia, Malaysia concerned over AUKUS nuclear subs plan

Malaysia and Indonesia share strong reservations over Australia's decision to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, even though nuclear weapons were not part of the plan, Malaysia's foreign minister said on Monday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

And the recent scaremongering about China has been dismissed by those without weapons manufacturer links:

www.9news.com.au

China 'sabre-rattling' of concern but threat of war unfounded, expert says

A media report claiming Australia faced a potential war with China within three years has been branded as "...
www.9news.com.au www.9news.com.au

Interesting to note 9 News also owns Age/SMH behind the recent "Red Alert" scare campaign. Basically calling out their own subsidiary news outlets.
Click to expand...

Indonesia is part of China's one Belt One Road and will be an important jurisdiction for the String of Pearls. It isn't in China's camp but it isn't in the West's either. Indonesia Is Quietly Warming Up to China

My prediction for Indonesia is Subianto (Probowo) will take the leadership and the only question is whether Subianto is the next Suharto or the next Sukarno. Either way it will lead to bloodshed.

A similar situation for Malaysia Malaysia in China’s Belt and Road


I'm not sure cash for comment countries are reliable and nor are these nations "not tied to China economically"
 
Schneebly11 said:
Actually no:

www.reuters.com

Indonesia, Malaysia concerned over AUKUS nuclear subs plan

Malaysia and Indonesia share strong reservations over Australia's decision to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, even though nuclear weapons were not part of the plan, Malaysia's foreign minister said on Monday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

And the recent scaremongering about China has been dismissed by those without weapons manufacturer links:

www.9news.com.au

China 'sabre-rattling' of concern but threat of war unfounded, expert says

A media report claiming Australia faced a potential war with China within three years has been branded as "...
www.9news.com.au www.9news.com.au

Interesting to note 9 News also owns Age/SMH behind the recent "Red Alert" scare campaign. Basically calling out their own subsidiary news outlets.
Click to expand...
So ignoring the Philippines request for an alliance, Indonesia's military upgrades to protect the Netunas, ASEAN condemnation of Xis stolen Island fortresses, Japanese concerns, Indian concerns, Korean concerns, Bhutan concerns after another theft of land favour of an old article about Indonesia doing a financial deal in the depths of an economic crisis .

They may not be Allies (Japan, Korea India all are and certainly aren't Anglo) but ASEAN nations are being vocal by their standards about Xi the Psycho. It is true shame that the great Chinese nation is being ruled over (for now) by a pyscho with the mentality of a teenage bully.

Sent from my SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Rob R said:
What about the ASEAN nations who along with Japan India, Korea share an increasing fear of the pyshco in Beijing. Amazing how those with economic ties to Beijing like to ignore the non Anglo nations reactions to Xi.

Sent from my SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
What is the pyshco in Beijing going to do?
  • He shares borders with 14 different countries.
  • He is surrounded by 5 of the 10 most powerful militaries in the world
  • He has no food security
  • He has no energy security
  • But he is going to sail to Australia and take over.
The Chinese only figured out the ball point pen in 2017. Spare me
 

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QuietB said:
What is the pyshco in Beijing going to do?
  • He shares borders with 14 different countries.
  • He is surrounded by 5 of the 10 most powerful militaries in the world
  • He has no food security
  • He has no energy security
  • But he is going to sail to Australia and take over.
The Chinese only figured out the ball point pen in 2017. Spare me
Click to expand...
Only an idiot thinks he would invade here, but we shouldn't stand by as he steals land from his neighbours and gleefully butchers millions in the small independent democracy of Taiwan just to protect his fragile ego and desire to become a God like figure similar to the cowardly pedo Mao.

Hitler who Xi shares many characteristics with, was also surrounded by powerful neighbours but was allowed to murder millions thanks in large part to appeasers in the west warn out from economic depressions and a horrible mistaken war (sound familiar?)

Sent from my SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Last edited:
Schneebly11 said:
Yes let's tie ourselves to the dying British Empire that has become a laughing stock since 2016, and an American nation which is becoming increasingly fractured between two increasingly irreconcilable factions and the truth that 50% of the time their leader will be a moron appealing to some of the dumbest people on the planet.

And before the inevitable "CCP Shill!" comments I've always advocated our strongest ties should be with our near neighbours, the nations of ASEAN. This deal is for a 19th century world that doesn't exist anymore.
Click to expand...
Can't say I disagree much with what you say, but it's a rare thing for a nation to be offered another's technological crown jewels, and we need to grab them, with both hands, very firmly. I don't think strengthening old alliances should be unexpected with PRC belligerence, it's the same reason we have been signing new treaties with Japan, india, Korea, Singapore, Indonesia etc. So not just the Anglosphere, the Dragon is making folks everywhere look for new friends & refresh old relationships. I don't think it really matters whether you regard 'the West' as a collective of like minded countries or as part of an American Empire, either is better than living in a 21C version of the middle kingdom that the PRC offers, along with it's grotesque security state. Unfortunately, we live in interesting times.
 
AFR are reporting the Virginia's will be reconditioned, not sure if that means refueled, it may not, in which case they will have limited life left, presumably enough to bridge the gap. Gives a chance for the RAN to get used to running nuclear subs, train crews and get the infrastructure right. The new UK derived SSN (the AUKUS sub) will be built here.

www.afr.com

Second hand, cheaper Virginia subs headed to Australia

Australia will buy used Virginia class submarines, at a yet to be finalised discount, to cover the gap until new AUKUS-built subs go into production.
www.afr.com www.afr.com

We really have made a botch of submarine acquisition, so far we have selected (and rejected) the 'Captains Pick' of the Soryu and the French Frankensub. Third time lucky. Let's hope.
 
CD Xbow said:
We really have made a botch of submarine acquisition, so far we have selected (and rejected) the 'Captains Pick' of the Soryu and the French Frankensub. Third time lucky. Let's hope.
Click to expand...
And for the love of god please just let us accept the 'off the shelf' version. Np special Australian bastardisations that turn the whole thing into a shitshow
 
QuietB said:
What is the pyshco in Beijing going to do?
  • He shares borders with 14 different countries.
  • He is surrounded by 5 of the 10 most powerful militaries in the world
  • He has no food security
  • He has no energy security
  • But he is going to sail to Australia and take over.
The Chinese only figured out the ball point pen in 2017. Spare me
Click to expand...

1) The pyshco has a population problem just like Russia, in that it is ageing and shrinking. The issue isn't the need for more people, as a billion plus is still huge but it does impact economies. One needs consumers.
- the answer to that is to build access to the growing markets (customers) of africa, central asia and southern asia
2) For energy security
  • the south china sea is full of O&G. A simple solution would be to claim it as their own and build military bases to assert that claim and protect it.
  • kazakh is and namibia is full or uranium.......simply control these industries in these jurisdictions
  • sea water is economic for uranium at $200/lb. uranium is a low % of the cost of nuclear power, so who cares what it costs
3) food security
- food security is a function of energy costs

A war won't start with Oz but more likely with Taiwan, Philippines, India or any other weak vulnerable neighbour. A war may not even start with a hot war but simply funding a coup and gaining control by proxy.

How hard would it be for China to establish a dictatorship in a place like Indo? Where votes can be bought and factions of the military bought? Others have done it in the past, so it isn't unrealistic.

Then imagine a conflict where Australia is involved and the Philippines, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran and others are Chinese controlled? Imagine trying to engage in conflict without sea lanes being open to deliver O&G to Oz and the US.

This is why the string of peals and OBOR is so strategically important for china and equally as important to those who are not chinese.
 
Power Raid said:
we have had US nuclear submarine commanders working with the ADF since 2013 training our guys. With our guys going to the US and cross pollination deployments on each others vessels. One of those submarine commanders was involved in the filming of Jaws......so not the youngest of men.
Click to expand...
We had dolphins on US subs in the lates 90s RimPacs during my time.
They weren't complimentary on the US sailors' ability to STFU, nor breakfast
 
The Drive have an article suggesting 3 second hand Virginia's in the 2030's then new build of an Astute replacement later, perhaps the 2040's - which is consistent with the rumours mentioned earlier. The Collins are due to retire from the early 2030's.

www.thedrive.com

Australia Will Buy At Least Three U.S.-Made Virginia Class Submarines (Updated)

The AUKUS deal will see Australia buy up to five U.S. nuclear submarines before acquiring boats of a new class based on a British design.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
CD Xbow said:
The Drive have an article suggesting 3 second hand Virginia's in the 2030's then new build of an Astute replacement later, perhaps the 2040's - which is consistent with the rumours mentioned earlier. The Collins are due to retire from the early 2030's.

www.thedrive.com

Australia Will Buy At Least Three U.S.-Made Virginia Class Submarines (Updated)

The AUKUS deal will see Australia buy up to five U.S. nuclear submarines before acquiring boats of a new class based on a British design.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...

Money is going to be spent on extend of life upgrades to the Collins to get them to the 2040's.
 

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