Australian cheating at Newlands, where to from here?

[Carbine Chaos]

All intelligent people will know that the next time one of our players doesn't walk when the other team has run out of reviews, then the media will be asking why he didn't get slapped with a one year ban for cheating the way Smith and Warner have.

Except the clear distinction that a player who doesn't walk hasn't broken any set law of the game. So no.

 

[PoopingHindi]

Too stupid to be considered, right on Warner's level.

he's supposed to have been disliked and isolated in the dressing room for quite some time. how the hell is a guy like that going to have enough pull to influence the captain and a guy desperate to solidify his place in the team?

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

No matter how you twist this Lehmann's position is utterly impossible- it's a grave mistake that he's kept his job.

Let's assume for a second he didn't know what was going on.

He's been in control of this team for the best part of a decade. This morning he admitted that the culture of the team, which he's responsible and has built and driven is part of the problem and needs to change. In other words, the decisions he's made, and the behaviour he's enabled and supported had led the team to this unmitigated, once in an era disaster. Under that scenario how does he deserve to keep his job?

The bigger practical problem is he is about the worst possible person in the world to drive cultural change because he's been there and endorsed the behavior of the team all this time. The bad eggs in the team will resent him for being a hypocrite, and the good eggs simply won't trust him.

If the Australian cricket team was a well run commercial organization in a similar situation,any sane CEO would take about 20 seconds to decide a new manager was required.

 

[Yidaki]

I would say without any doubt in the world that they did not in any shape or form believe for one milli-second that this thing would have gotten this reaction. It's most likely that they, in the heat of the moment out of desperation and pressure, made the decision with no thought of the repercussions at all!

Even if they did, which I doubt, they probably only expected similar punishment to those handed down to others in the past i.e. bugger all!

Well if that is case then I would say that the players are disconnected with their fans if that is the type of reaction they expected.

I don't know if I like the "in the heat of the moment" decision. They had discussed this even before getting onto the field.

I ask you this question: even if they expected a similar punishment, why would they risk getting caught and in the process disrespect not only themselves, but their fans, the greats that came before them, and the country they represented?

Despite ball tampering being considered a minor offence by the ICC, it is still cheating. I'm sure they knew this seeing as it is their job. Everyone knows this.

 

[HBF]

From Lehmann...

I need to change," Lehmann said.

"We need to change how we play and within the boundaries we play. Obviously previously we've butted heads on the line but that's not the way to go about us playing cricket moving forward.”

Best change he could make is to leave.

CA need to make Langer and/or Ponting an offer they can't refuse. These two would be perfect in charge of the cricket team.

 

[IHurley]

As a self proclaimed intelligent person that's a bit of a reach and poor correlation to make to the current situation.

Also a captain will continue to support his players, he just probably shouldn't be complicit in the act, lie about it and act as though other tampering incidents are the same as this one with the same contextual issues surrounding it.

I agree with some of your other sentiments and that CA has lost a lot of its integrity by pandering to public opinion which is always fraught with danger.

At the end of the day though, if you play the right way there's no possible way that anything can be interpreted in a way that's unfair or unjust and that's the lesson for the players.

How is it a reach? All the people here are saying that "they are cheaters, ergo they deserve a one year penalty".

Therefore, any form of cheating deserves a one year penalty. I am merely applying their logic here. And I will no doubt expect the same when we watch the footy tonight. If a single player does anything at all that costs a free kick (or even if it doesn't) and could be described as deliberate then the precedent has been set and every single poster on this forum who supports these penalties will, I am sure, call for a 12 month ban.

It's perfectly simple. If you think "cheating is cheating" then you have to accept the logical consequences of this position. If you believe that there are different levels of cheating then you will find this ruling a disgrace as it applies a completely different set of criteria to this particular form than had ever previously taken place.

As for captains supporting their players you do realise that according to the CA his complicity was minimal don't you?

How can people not be concerned about the precedent set here?

But I guess that was my point about them being allowed to vote.

 

[SilentHunter_]

Video and pictures of Smith are hard to watch as a fan. Idiot has ruined his entire rep and career. He looks broken.

 

[peppy la pew]

It is so terrifying that people who support these suspensions are allowed to vote.

Every time you transgress the rules you have "cheated". And most of the time you have done it with some level of pre-meditation.

Every sport in the world has different levels of how bad a form of cheating a particular action is.

Drug cheats are - rightly or wrongly - considered the worst along with match fixers.

Divers tend to be considered much lesser cheats. And there are a whole pile of transgressions in every sport that are - rightly or wrongly - considered better or worse than each other. Head high tacklers, trippers, head duckers, time wasters, players who run over the mark in AFL , etc etc.

In cricket, ball tampering is considered moderately serious. It might get you a ban for a game but it certainly doesn't get you 4 years like drug cheating. If you don't think that is a fair punishment then you should lobby to have the rule/punishment changed for *all* people not just Australians in this instance.

People who say "but they deliberately did it" are of course completely ignorant. If you change the condition of the ball by pure accident then you won't get punished for it *at all*. If you did it deliberately then you will. The 4 demerit points doesn't magically become 100 demerit points because you did it deliberately. If it was accidental then it would be zero demerit points not the other way around. The fact that more than one person is at fault means that it is right that more than one person gets the 4 demerit points but it doesn't for a second mean that everybody should get 100 demerit points. And I have no idea why the sandpaper has anything to do with anything. The players were trying to get the ball changed rather than to make it swing, so what they were trying to use to wreck the ball enough to do that is irrelevant. If they had taken a jackhammer to it, nothing would change.

This situation has set a precedent that the CA can, at a whim, slap a 12 month penalty on any player if a bunch of social media misfits get hysterical about them transgressing any law at all.

All intelligent people will know that the next time one of our players doesn't walk when the other team has run out of reviews, then the media will be asking why he didn't get slapped with a one year ban for cheating the way Smith and Warner have.

All intelligent people will know that this sets a horrible precedent for players to never front any press conference without a team of lawyers on standby.

And all intelligent people will know that no captain will *ever* support their players ever again - they will just throw them under the bus knowing that if they take any sort of responsibility they will get everything the other player gets and more - much more in fact because social media misfits will say there was collusion stemming from the Pope on down.

You are more hysterical than the hordes on social media you are accusing

 

[Wolfs]

Not to mention monkey gate

And the match fixing scandal.

 

[GreyBudgie]

Lehmann has done absolutely nothing wrong or illegal, yet you want him sacked?...

Are you for real??

A lot of folks need to have a big cup of calm tf down.

To quote Boof himself "I need to change," Maybe leave now instead of 12 months time, its the vibe around this team, seems toxic in the eyes of a lot of supporters new coach new beginning thanks for the Job well done..now Jog on

 

[LordLucifer]

Smith and Warner make that in a year, it's not life savings.

Both of them have 6-7 luxury properties each.

Try $5mill per year.

 

[JackOutback]

I have said right from the start that I am in the middle on this; I don't want to downplay the calculated nature of the cheating but neither do I want to get hysterical given what we know of how the ICC treats ball tampering and the fact that it is widespread in the game. And yet somehow, CA has managed to hit both extremes. Downplaying it by whitewashing the investigation and refusing to allow the players to give and honest and frank account of what happened, and then going to hysterical extremes with 12 month suspensions. They are a ****-up of an organisation. Any change needs to start there.

 

[LordLucifer]

So what? Should we base our punishments on how other countries handle similar incidents? Not at all.

I’m proud harsh penalties have been dished out for completely unacceptable behaviour.

Totally agree.

If the other countries want to be soft then be it on their head.

We have lost all moral high ground in this sport over the past few years, at least with these sanctions, the next time someone else gets caught we can point the finger and say "well we took strong action, what are you going to do ??".

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

If Warner wasn't such a campaigner nobody in SA would have known he had a family. He picked the fight. Warner is not a victim in any of this.

I believe that SA found out about Warner's family thanks to de ****!

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

he's supposed to have been disliked and isolated in the dressing room for quite some time.

Ridiculous.

 

[Demosthenes]

How can people not be concerned about the precedent set here?

If the precedent is that team members who conspire to deliberately break the laws and gain an advantage get heavy bans, I don't have a massive problem with that.

Let's not pretend this is going to have catastrophic implications for incidental law infringements (e.g. slow over rates). That's a massive straw man.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Seems Smith's crime was not being hard enough on Warner.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/cricke...d/news-story/1072aaacfd2e2530e278c168e2827a85

 

[IHurley]

If the precedent is that team members who conspire to deliberately break the laws and gain an advantage get heavy bans, I don't have a massive problem with that.

Let's not pretend this is going to have catastrophic implications for incidental law infringements (e.g. slow over rates). That's a massive straw man.

CA has said explicitly that when Smith and co come back into the side will be predominantly dependent on public opinion.

So yes, the precedent has been set. Any sort of transgression *and* some mean tweets has to be met with a one year suspension.

 

[IHurley]

Totally agree.

If the other countries want to be soft then be it on their head.

We have lost all moral high ground in this sport over the past few years, at least with these sanctions, the next time someone else gets caught we can point the finger and say "well we took strong action, what are you going to do ??".

they're going to laugh at us and tell us that that just proves that our players must have done a much worse thing than what their players did.

First they hated us but respected us.

Now they hate us just as much but they also hold us in contempt.

 

[skipjack]

CA need to make Langer and/or Ponting an offer they can't refuse. These two would be perfect in charge of the cricket team.

Langer for sure. If you want professionalism, hard work ethic and inspiration - he's the man for the job.

 

[kickazz]

I think Sachin is too used to an environment that does not criticise or question him.

What a laugh.

 

[Demosthenes]

CA has said explicitly that when Smith and co come back into the side will be predominantly dependent on public opinion.

So yes, the precedent has been set. Any sort of transgression *and* some mean tweets has to be met with a one year suspension.

Your second paragraph does not follow from the first.

 

[The_Reaper]

Totally agree.

If the other countries want to be soft then be it on their head.

We have lost all moral high ground in this sport over the past few years, at least with these sanctions, the next time someone else gets caught we can point the finger and say "well we took strong action, what are you going to do ??".

Do nothing.

 

[Plugger35]

How is it a reach? All the people here are saying that "they are cheaters, ergo they deserve a one year penalty".

Therefore, any form of cheating deserves a one year penalty. I am merely applying their logic here. And I will no doubt expect the same when we watch the footy tonight. If a single player does anything at all that costs a free kick (or even if it doesn't) and could be described as deliberate then the precedent has been set and every single poster on this forum who supports these penalties will, I am sure, call for a 12 month ban.

It's perfectly simple. If you think "cheating is cheating" then you have to accept the logical consequences of this position. If you believe that there are different levels of cheating then you will find this ruling a disgrace as it applies a completely different set of criteria to this particular form than had ever previously taken place.

As for captains supporting their players you do realise that according to the CA his complicity was minimal don't you?

How can people not be concerned about the precedent set here?

But I guess that was my point about them being allowed to vote.

You can't seriously compare giving away a free kick in footy to ball tampering in cricket, giving away free kicks is part of the game, ball tampering is not.

 

[Kram]

I think Sachin is too used to an environment that does not criticise or question him.

What a laugh.