Moved Thread Crawford or Cousins

[cama30]

Shane Crawford
Recruited: Finley / Assumption College
Games: 305
Goals: 224
Honours
Premiership: 2008
Pre-season / Night Premiership: 1999
Captain: 1999-2004
Club Champion: 1998, 1999, 2002, 2003
2015 Hall of Fame Inductee
VFL / AFL Honours
Brownlow Medal: 1999
All-Australian: 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002
International Rules: 1998, 1999, 2002-2003 (captain)
Jesaulenko Medal: 1998
AFLPA MVP: 1999
Rising Star Nominee: 1993
VFL/AFL Life Member: 2006

Ben Cousins
Recruited: East Fremantle / Bullcreek-Leeming JFC
Games: 270
Goals: 212
Honours
AFL premiership player: 2006
Brownlow Medal: 2005
Leigh Matthews Trophy: 2005
6× All-Australian team: 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006
AFL Rising Star: 1996
West Coast Captain: 2001 (co-captain), 2002–2005
4× West Coast Club Champion: 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005
Geoff Christian Medal: 2001
West Coast Life Member: 2003
Western Australian Sports Star of the Year: 2005

 

[Whiskers]

I loved the way these 2 played their footy, so much so that when I played local footy I attempted to replicate them with their running power, skill and smarts.

Of course I was useless but really enjoyed watching these two except when my side played them.
I cannot split them. Maybe I’ll go with Crawford as he was 1st on the scene.

 

[Cyclops]

When they played I had Cousins miles in front, just so obviously a superstar. Superb endurance, great skills, seemed to be consistent and not wilt in the most high pressure games.

Crawford has an irritating personality to me so i have under rated him (a bit of Dunstall syndrome maybe?). At the end of his career a Hawthorn supporter pointed out that he was never beaten one on one: I didn't want to believe it but it seemed to be true. Top notch skills and a superb competitor.

Overall I have Cousins a whole class above Crawford but honestly I am a biased judge, and Crawford played in worse sides.

One flag each but Vic sides have it easier. So allowing for my bias abd ignorance, still Cousins but it's close.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Both guns. One player was the sole shining light and carried his club during its worst period in the past 70 years. The other played with a perennial finals contender and had a bunch of hall of famers along side him.

Reckon any vote would be 95% Cousins, 5% Crawford but for Hawks supporters we would always go for Crawford. Kind of like Hodge v Judd. 95% of people would go for Judd but to lead Hawthorn, we couldn't have asked for anyone better than Hodge.

 

[GWT6]

When they played I had Cousins miles in front, just so obviously a superstar. Superb endurance, great skills, seemed to be consistent and not wilt in the most high pressure games.

Crawford has an irritating personality to me so i have under rated him (a bit of Dunstall syndrome maybe?). At the end of his career a Hawthorn supporter pointed out that he was never beaten one on one: I didn't want to believe it but it seemed to be true. Top notch skills and a superb competitor.

Overall I have Cousins a whole class above Crawford but honestly I am a biased judge, and Crawford played in worse sides.

One flag each but Vic sides have it easier. So allowing for my bias abd ignorance, still Cousins but it's close.

I thought the same until I met him - actually the opposite off camera, a really nice humble bloke with no ego.

 

[Cyclops]

I thought the same until I met him - actually the opposite off camera, a really nice humble bloke with no ego.

Nice to know. He seemed, I dunno, arrogant and flippant as a player. Not that you can tell.

Definitely a very gutsy player, and IMHO under rated outside Hawthorn.

 

[StillAtLarge]

Cousins I think but Crawford's effort in 1999 was one of the most dominant individual seasons I've seen. Carried a pretty average team, he was unbelievable

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Cousins

 

[Belnakor]

Cousins I think but Crawford's effort in 1999 was one of the most dominant individual seasons I've seen. Carried a pretty average team, he was unbelievable

Sometimes it’s hard to rank players when they played in vastly different quality sides but I would certainly say Crawford had a tougher time to play his best. He got the no1 tagger every single game. Cousins was rarely tagged during the Judd era, which allowed him a lot more freedom.

 

[Jeremias]

Cousins pretty comfortably IMO.

 

[kane249]

Sometimes it’s hard to rank players when they played in vastly different quality sides but I would certainly say Crawford had a tougher time to play his best. He got the no1 tagger every single game. Cousins was rarely tagged during the Judd era, which allowed him a lot more freedom.

When Judd/Kerr emerged sure he got less attention, but Cousins also carried the Eagles for awhile there. In they dying years of the Malthouse era through the horror years of Ken Judge and the early infancy of Worsfold's tenure it was Cousins who carried the midfield.

People forget the dip the club had in the late 90s/early 2000's, and it was Cousins who lead through it.

 

[The 747]

No disrespect to Crawford but Cousins was a better player, comfortably.

 

[Cam Payne]

Cus would have been more fun to go out with in his early playing days. Crawf would be better to have a meal with nowadays.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Probably Cousins, but Crawford was a very very good player for such a long time. And retired at his peak, didn't go around one year too long.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Cousins pretty comfortably IMO.

No disrespect to Crawford but Cousins was a better player, comfortably.

Not sure why you have perceived there to be a big gap between the two?

Flags 1-1
Brownlows 1-1
MVP's 1-1
B&F's 4-4
Brownlow votes Cuz 148 - 159 Crawf
Possessions - Cuz 22.5 vs 22.4 Crawf
Goals Cuz 0.80 vs 0.73 Crawf
Tackles: Cuz 1.8 vs Crawf 2.8
(All other stats not for duration of career)

The only real separator is AA's as Cousins got 6 and Crawford 4 but even then Crawford was very unlucky a couple of times, such as 2003 when he finished 1 vote off winning the Brownlow.

Regardless, I think Crawfrod has always been underrated for playing in a crap side with an awful midfield (Ries, Lonie, Lekkas, Greene, etc) and for his off field "personality" on the Footy Show (despite being an amazing person). Not sure whee the "big gap" perception comes from. What did Cousins do that Crawford didn't?

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Not sure why you have perceived there to be a big gap between the two?

Flags 1-1
Brownlows 1-1
MVP's 1-1
B&F's 4-4
Brownlow votes Cuz 148 - 159 Crawf
Possessions - Cuz 22.5 vs 22.4 Crawf
Goals Cuz 0.80 vs 0.73 Crawf
Tackles: Cuz 1.8 vs Crawf 2.8
(All other stats not for duration of career)

The only real separator is AA's as Cousins got 6 and Crawford 4 but even then Crawford was very unlucky a couple of times, such as 2003 when he finished 1 vote off winning the Brownlow.

Regardless, I think Crawfrod has always been underrated for playing in a crap side with an awful midfield (Ries, Lonie, Lekkas, Greene, etc) and for his off field "personality" on the Footy Show (despite being an amazing person). Not sure whee the "big gap" perception comes from. What did Cousins do that Crawford didn't?

I think Cousins was a bit more dashing as a player and seemed to have more of a scoreboard impact, whereas as you say Crawford had to the heavy lifting for very ordinary/mid of the road Hawthorn teams for a long time.

I think Cousins was better, but the gap is nowhere near as big as many are making it out.

Probably doesn't help when there is probably a lot more highlights around of Cousins and his best games for a strong Eagles team than Crawf and the Hawks..

Both are club legends and Hall of Fame players. Ridiculous for some to suggest one is light years ahead of the other imo

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I think Cousins was a bit more dashing as a player and seemed to have more of a scoreboard impact, whereas as you say Crawford had to the heavy lifting for very ordinary/mid of the road Hawthorn teams for a long time.

I think Cousins was better, but the gap is nowhere near as big as many are making it out.

Probably doesn't help when there is probably a lot more highlights around of Cousins and his best games for a strong Eagles team than Crawf and the Hawks..

Both are club legends and Hall of Fame players. Ridiculous for some to suggest one is light years ahead of the other imo

I think the highlights (of the successful eagles team with one of the greatest midfields of all time) is a very good point.

Even on the other factors you raised, Cousins and Crawford were two of the hardest runners the game has seen. Impossible to say one was more 'dashing' than the other given both of their games were built on extreme fitness and hard (repeat sprint) running.

As for scoreboard impact, Cousins first two seasons were as a small forward whereas Crawford started in defence. Despite this - and playing in a much lower scoring team - Crawford kicked more goals than Cousins did and if you exclude Cousins debut year as a small forward, Crawford also averaged more goals than Cousins. Goal assists were only tallied at the end of their respective careers, but Crawford also averaged higher in this stat too.

Obviously believing Cousins to be the better player is completely valid but as you say the gap is small regardless and as the above stats show, perception doesn't always match the reality (especially in relation to these two).

 

[The 747]

Not sure why you have perceived there to be a big gap between the two?

Flags 1-1
Brownlows 1-1
MVP's 1-1
B&F's 4-4
Brownlow votes Cuz 148 - 159 Crawf
Possessions - Cuz 22.5 vs 22.4 Crawf
Goals Cuz 0.80 vs 0.73 Crawf
Tackles: Cuz 1.8 vs Crawf 2.8
(All other stats not for duration of career)

The only real separator is AA's as Cousins got 6 and Crawford 4 but even then Crawford was very unlucky a couple of times, such as 2003 when he finished 1 vote off winning the Brownlow.

Regardless, I think Crawfrod has always been underrated for playing in a crap side with an awful midfield (Ries, Lonie, Lekkas, Greene, etc) and for his off field "personality" on the Footy Show (despite being an amazing person). Not sure whee the "big gap" perception comes from. What did Cousins do that Crawford didn't?

I think Cousins had a bigger influence on games. I watched both their careers.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I think Cousins had a bigger influence on games. I watched both their careers.

Fair enough. I think often 'influence' is conflated with team success (ie. you play well and your team wins = influential, you play well and your team loses = not influential) when of course the quality of your teammates plays a far bigger role.

Crawford was a highly influential player IMO who dragged a bottom 4 team/list into finals contention throughout his peak years. He ended up collecting more Brownlow votes, MVP votes and votes in most post-game media outlets over his career than Cousins did.

I think the 'bigger influence' rhetoric stems from West Coast being a dominant side and winning the flag during Cousins peak - but he had the likes of Cox, Kerr and Judd as his support cast compared to VFL level talents.

 

[SSSSSS]

Crawf was a bonafide gun in a crap side. Copped a tag every week.

Cousins the better career obviously but gee you are truly blessed when you can play alongside Cox, Judd and Kerr in their prime.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Crawf was a bonafide gun in a crap side. Copped a tag every week.

Cousins the better career obviously but gee you are truly blessed when you can play alongside Cox, Judd and Kerr in their prime.

Hawthorn probably would have won a spoon (if not two) if they didn't have Crawford in your lowly years from the 97-2004 ish)

And yes he copped many hard tags (a lot of which wouldn't be allowed today) and still had a major impact on games, even if not having the best of teammates.

Crawford was such a consumate professional and training track beast too (despite his lovable larrikan footy show antics)

If Cousins only had Cwarf's on and off field professionalism and dedication he and the Eagles probably would have won at least 3 flags and Judd probably stayed at the Eagles.

Shane Crawford simply made more out of his natural talent and ability. I wish Ben Cousins nothing but peace and happiness going fowards, but he did blow a golden opportunity to be imo the greatest WA footballer of all time (the talent was certainly there)

It's almost heartbreaking really and extremely frustrating for most Eagles fans I feel, knowing Cousins could (and SHOULD) have been an all time great/top 20 or so VFL/AFL player of all time