Some further developments to the story in the video below:
Mod edit: it’s a must watch for anyone reading this thread.
Mod edit: it’s a must watch for anyone reading this thread.
Last edited by a moderator:
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AFLW 2024 - Round 4 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
News Cyril and Shannyn Rioli speak to Caro - link to club statement in page 8
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Do you not see how an aboriginal women would perceive it that way, though?
mcnulty
Norm Smith Medallist
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I can. But with some goodwill on both sides this should be able to be resolved. Obviously things have broken down in the aftermath, which is a great shame. Kennett has apologised and either the manner, timing or tone of the apology was considered insufficient.
I don’t like Kennett and he really shouldn’t be saying that to anyone he wasn’t very familiar with. Ragging people about their clothing really should reserved for family or friends, otherwise you just come across as a dick. Which lets face it, Kennett is.
But I simply don’t believe there would have been any intent to egregiously offend here. Some believe otherwise. I can agree to disagree.
Rioli said 'last straw'. Why no indignation about the other straws? Why aren't we demanding Clarkson and Burgoyne come clean? Name and shame the guy who said b***g.
Nah lets do none of that. Maybe get Jeff to reshechedule his exit date. It's only racism. Hawks 4 not much Change!
Nah lets do none of that. Maybe get Jeff to reshechedule his exit date. It's only racism. Hawks 4 not much Change!
Chris Johnson has vocalised something that might help show where the issue lies.
"We as Indigenous people think a flippant comment is not a flippant comment; it's a comment," Johnson said.
One statement, succinctly put. To me, this explains and educates.
"We as Indigenous people think a flippant comment is not a flippant comment; it's a comment," Johnson said.
One statement, succinctly put. To me, this explains and educates.
- Jul 31, 2018
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Why not do both?
I, and others, have questioned Clarkos role, or lack thereof.
Clarkson and Burgoyne have left the club. The club has contacted Burgoyne at very least but only you seem to think he needs to come clean about anything. The rioli’s acknowledge Clarkson always had the right intent even if he made mistakes. He has attempted to visit Rioli recently before the article came out so clearly he still is trying to mend bridges. But Jeff is the current president and was part of the problem and can start the healing by leaving. He clearly doesn’t feel sorry for his words and actions over the years so he has to go. We call all sit here and throw stones at newbold but what would that achieve? He is gone. It is for the people at the club now to take action. Why do you keep defending Jeff?
How many years of goodwill is sufficient? Golliwog-gate was in 2011. This statement was made in 2018.
And intent is not required to make a racist remark. Just as intent isn’t required to be found guilty of a crime. It is a mitigating factor in the sentence only. Jeff has had years of gaffs and idiotic statements made. as premier, as president of beyond blue, and has president of the hawthorn football club it has always been his job to understand these issues. It is his job to know and no amount of goodwill can overcome the fact he deliberately keeps himself ignorant of these issues.
Whistling Hawk
Team Captain
Wow. I really don't understand how you got here.
The fundamental problem here is that Shannyn and Cyril don't feel like they are treated as equals.
The work Cyril is showing that people who've committed crimes that they can be welcomed into society again, feel worthwhile and feel like an equal in the eyes of one of their heroes. He doesn't think what they have done is ok or less than a stupid comment by a bigot.
Mercy Seat
Norm Smith Medallist
Take off the blinkers and try and understand that your experience wasn’t an indigenous persons experience, or a huge amount of other peoples’ experience. Just because you lived through something differently through your eyes, doesn’t mean everyone else is lying. Documentaries included.
This is one of the biggest hurdles in overcoming cultural norms. People refusing to accept that there’s another perspective but their own.
StevenwellerHFC
Brownlow Medallist
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You'll get removed from this board if.... Unwatch thread.
I thought it was weird at the time that Cyril left the same year the club had a Tiwi jumper to wear that season. Starting to make sense now.
Gralin
Super Moderator
- Moderator
- #538
Kennett's view is that he is not racist and that if he doesn't think he was being offensive then he wasn't.
His view was saying sorry that you felt offended was good enough
there was no acknowledgement of any issue with his behaviour and no attempt to learn or change behaviour
there was no remorse
I'm sorry you feel that way is not I'm sorry I did something to make you feel that way its basically saying this is a you problem not a me problem
and that along with how the club handled the situation is an issue
as mentioned in the article there was years of history behind this
lip service and public support but privately being told to get over it and nothing being done to fix the issues that lead to the incidents
you seem to be following Kennett and the clubs line of thinking on these issues
good will on both sides?
how do you both sides racism, classism, misogyny etc? oh look we know that you were humiliated and bullied but he's not going to change or actually apologise so you should just move on
I'm disappointed that so many of us appear to lack the empathy required to put ourselves in the shoes of others, and realise that what we may personally find non-offensive when said to ourselves may in fact be highly offensive when said to someone coming from a different set of life experiences to what we are familiar with.
If you're struggling to understand how the jeans "joke" might have caused offense, listen/read this article about some of Wingard's experiences:
www.afl.com.au
Now imagine you've had those kind of experiences your entire life where assumptions about your ability to pay for something is made because of the colour of your skin, and then someone tries to offer you some coins to help you repair your clothes. It is not going to have the same impact on that person that it has when said to someone who hasn't had that life experience.
I don't think many would say Kennett deliberately had a dig at an indigenous women's ability to financially support herself, but his piss-poor apology afterwards really showed a complete lack of understanding and empathy (IMO similar to the lack of empathy many toting the "how could you be offended by that" line).
If you have trouble putting yourself in the shoes of the indigenous person, and still think "degree of offensiveness" isn't subjective, and the feelings and experience of the person being offended are irrelevant and there is some kind of objective measure of "offensive" that operates irrespective of context, and the people involved, then try to think of other contexts that are not based on race that operate in a similar manner. It really isn't that hard.
For example say I make a "I ****ed your mum" joke to a mate. Offensive yes, but how offensive, and should my mate never talk to me again? Depends. A lot of people would say it was a bad joke, but that my mate was being precious if he got upset by a bit of harmless banter. Now imagine my mate's mum had died the day before, and that I was fully aware of this. Suddenly what might have passed as harmless banter takes on a completely new light. In this situation the difference is easy to see for everyone that has a mother they've been close to - which is probably the vast majority of us. However a very small percentage of us have the experience of being an indigenous person , and so don't understand the context created by a constant stream of events of the type described by Wingard. This seems to be making it hard for a lot of people to see that a "dad joke" isn't always just a dad joke depending on who the audience is. While I accept it might have been difficult (but certainly not impossible) for Kennett to foresee the degree of offense taken, he certainly could have done an infinitely better job in apologising.
I don't think Kennett was being deliberately racist, but I do think he was being culturally insensitive. I also think this wasn't a once off for him in that regard. Naming his golliwog "buddy" (hell COLLECTING golliwogs in the first place). Assuming to know that security guards were "new arrivals" and had no idea about footy simply because of how they looked on camera footage also underlines his general lack of cultural sensitivity. How many red flags do we need before we take action? It is probably futile hoping Kennett will change his ways, but we can change our president, and should have done so long ago - we might still be watching Cyril play if we had, and that possibility stings almost as much as thinking about how sad Rioli must have been for it to come to the point it did.
If you're struggling to understand how the jeans "joke" might have caused offense, listen/read this article about some of Wingard's experiences:
LISTEN: Chad Wingard's soul destroying racial-profiling moment
Chad Wingard has shared stories of the everyday discrimination he receives as a First Nations Australian
www.afl.com.au
Now imagine you've had those kind of experiences your entire life where assumptions about your ability to pay for something is made because of the colour of your skin, and then someone tries to offer you some coins to help you repair your clothes. It is not going to have the same impact on that person that it has when said to someone who hasn't had that life experience.
I don't think many would say Kennett deliberately had a dig at an indigenous women's ability to financially support herself, but his piss-poor apology afterwards really showed a complete lack of understanding and empathy (IMO similar to the lack of empathy many toting the "how could you be offended by that" line).
If you have trouble putting yourself in the shoes of the indigenous person, and still think "degree of offensiveness" isn't subjective, and the feelings and experience of the person being offended are irrelevant and there is some kind of objective measure of "offensive" that operates irrespective of context, and the people involved, then try to think of other contexts that are not based on race that operate in a similar manner. It really isn't that hard.
For example say I make a "I ****ed your mum" joke to a mate. Offensive yes, but how offensive, and should my mate never talk to me again? Depends. A lot of people would say it was a bad joke, but that my mate was being precious if he got upset by a bit of harmless banter. Now imagine my mate's mum had died the day before, and that I was fully aware of this. Suddenly what might have passed as harmless banter takes on a completely new light. In this situation the difference is easy to see for everyone that has a mother they've been close to - which is probably the vast majority of us. However a very small percentage of us have the experience of being an indigenous person , and so don't understand the context created by a constant stream of events of the type described by Wingard. This seems to be making it hard for a lot of people to see that a "dad joke" isn't always just a dad joke depending on who the audience is. While I accept it might have been difficult (but certainly not impossible) for Kennett to foresee the degree of offense taken, he certainly could have done an infinitely better job in apologising.
I don't think Kennett was being deliberately racist, but I do think he was being culturally insensitive. I also think this wasn't a once off for him in that regard. Naming his golliwog "buddy" (hell COLLECTING golliwogs in the first place). Assuming to know that security guards were "new arrivals" and had no idea about footy simply because of how they looked on camera footage also underlines his general lack of cultural sensitivity. How many red flags do we need before we take action? It is probably futile hoping Kennett will change his ways, but we can change our president, and should have done so long ago - we might still be watching Cyril play if we had, and that possibility stings almost as much as thinking about how sad Rioli must have been for it to come to the point it did.
Gralin
Super Moderator
- Moderator
- #540
I think Jeff is the perfect example of a lot of white australian's lack of willingness to see that you can hold racist views or positions without thinking you do
As soon as racism is mentioned people get their back up and dig in, which is kind of the opposite of what we need to happen.
So of course some say the way to tackle that is not mention racism, which also is not going to fix anything.
I've had discussions with relatives from the same era as Jeff about golliwogs and they just flat out refuse to see how it could be a problem. I mean when you are pointing to but the slaves gave them as gifts to their owners so its ok to own them as your reasoning you just flat out don't understand power dynamics
It's also like the people who say I've got a black mate who lets me call them this so it's not offensive to call anyone black that.
We see that with the LGBTQI+ community as well. It's the standard fall back, I know one person who says its ok so all the people from the same community that I don't know who say it isn't ok are wrong
I said earlier Jeff's comment isn't even the biggest issue with that part of the story, it's everything that happened after a complaint was made. Same pattern as the Rioli's had seen throughout his entire career at the Hawks.
When the people change but the response stays the same that points to systemic issues, removing Jeff might be one step on the path to dealing with those problems but it's only one step.
The mob is only interested in Kennett. The other racists are fine.
Oooh Cyril
Senior List
people need to stop getting so excited about peoples choice of words. Two meanings of 'get a grip' are control oneself and take it easy
Are these terms so bad? There is nothing racist about a comment about torn jeans. It is very possible that it was said very innocently in jest
We werent there so how do we know?
If I see any young people that I know with torn jeans I will stir them and say how much did you pay for those pre torn jeans?
I will then say with a smile on my face. '' I and all my mates who worked on the land started this fashion trend by wearing our genuine torn jeans until they were totally worn out
Do I dare say ''lighten up "' or will I be in trouble
The list of things that comedians can say is getting shorter and shorter
You have been responded to on this topic and chosen to ignore the replies. This is quite a disingenuous statement.
The entire point of the interview was to highlight the lack of action by leaders, including Jeff but not exclusively him. Are you confident that change at the club will happen with Jeff as president?
What nonsense. Kennett was the president for much of the period in question, and was president as well as comment maker in the "jeans" incident and subsequent faux apology that finally triggered Rioli's departure. No one is saying there are not other issues in play, but as they say - the fish rots at the head. Kennett's mouth has been a liability for a very long time, and if removing him immediately and replacing him with someone that actually understands indigenous relations might increase the chances the club can mend its relationship with Rioli, then we should act immediately. Kennett is a dinosaur and a liability, and his departure will make it easier to fix any remaining issues with our indigenous programs, because clearly he's as blind to them as he is blind to the impact of his own words.
Proper Gander
Owl whisperer and secret agent
Does anyone recall this moment? If Jeff hasn’t sussed out that other cultures might find some of his jokes problematic, I’m truly amazed
www.buzzfeed.com
This Former Politician Has A Collection Of Racist Golliwog Dolls And Thinks They're Awesome
"I love Golliwogs."
Does anyone recall this moment? If Jeff hasn’t sussed out that other cultures might find some of his jokes problematic, I’m truly amazed
This Former Politician Has A Collection Of Racist Golliwog Dolls And Thinks They're Awesome
"I love Golliwogs."
Yes, has been mentioned several times in this thread. The fact that he collects them is bad enough, but he's well aware of the racial overtones, yet still thought it was a good idea to name one of them after buddy when buddy was still on our list. Baffling. I'm not sure why these things were able to fly under the radar as much as they have. This alone would scream "unsafe environment" to me if I was an indigenous player.
So we excuse all those under Kennett.
Point to the bit where I said that please.
Furthermore if by "all those under kennett" you are referring to the player that used a racial slur to refer to a player's wife, I would agree that this was inexcusable. HOWEVER. I'm also more concerned about:
a) the possibility the player was likely not educated on the hurtful nature of his words BEFORE saying this (I say possibility, as I don't really know, but if he was , then the education was clearly not effective).
b) the apparent lack of education AFTER the incident to make it clear why his slur was not acceptable and why it was hurtful (again I say apparent, I only have Caro's article's view to provide insight on this, and I accept this may not provide a full view).
c) Why the concerns when raised with the club were not adequately addressed.
If I understand correctly, Kennett wasn't actually president at the time of the slur, so we can't put all this inaction at his feet, and we should definitely address the lack of inaction with anyone at the club at the time who is still there and allowed it to happen without any corrective measures being put in place. Kennett has a history of making culturally insensitive remarks though, so I'm not surprised we were not at the cutting edge of creating a safe environment for our indigenous players at the time and then afterwards when Kennett was back in power. He probably didn't have the capability to understand things were not as they should be, or at the very least, not as good as they could be.
I also hold Kennett at a higher level of conduct because he's a highly educated person in a leadership position, and had spent his entire life before being our club president in a line of work where crafting words is a key part of the job, and everyone in that profession understands that words have power and meaning. As such, holding Kennett to a different level of behaviour to an (apparently) ignorant player who the club (apparently) didn't do a good job of educating on cultural issues also seems fair. I wouldn't have called for the sacking of the player if I was in charge, but I would have called for education and counselling and made sure a sit down happened where the problem was addressed in a manner that provided closure for the people involved. In my mind, the club failed the player making the racial slurs too, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't have been consequences for them (as there has been for other AFL players in this situation).
So why do you think calling for Kennett to be made responsible for his actions and inactions over the years is in some way excusing the actions of others?
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Isn't treating people differently because of there backgrounds the root of racisim?
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