News Cyril and Shannyn Rioli speak to Caro - link to club statement in page 8

[Hawthorn23]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

Mod edit: it’s a must watch for anyone reading this thread.

 

[Holy Rioli]

The insight into just how upset all of our Idigenous players were with the Goodes situation at the time and how our club just ignored them all is really hard to swallow, even though it’s not at all surprising for me to learn that happened on the night.

Newbold, Fox and Clarkson have a lot of answering to do.

Caro is spot on when she says that it shows just how uneducated our staff were that they could just tell our players to forget about it and to move on and she’s also spot on in declaring that we can’t move passed this until an investigation is had and all of this dirty laundry gets aired.

The one thing that is making me feel better about all of this is just how well Sam is handling this issue.

I struggle a little bit with this in that first week I felt the crowd turned on Goodes like they would have if it was Selwood in that he had in recent times done unpleasant things on the field and was also good enough to be a problem.

But if the indigenous players are coming to you to tell you that they feel the actions were hurtful and potentially racist, then our club should have listened. It became pretty evident that the lack of leadership from most clubs moving forward meant fans were booing and doing it to be racist and the AFL, it's clubs and us as fans should be very disappointed in the way we behaved and handled and treated Goodes.

 

[threesixpio]

I guess in short, my friends are not interested in me being sensitive to their "culture". They appreciate me being sensitive to them as an individual.

I think the relationship between friends and the relationship between Employer and Employee is a bit different …in fact it’s really different

 

[CD Xbow]

Clarkson and Burgoyne have left the club. The club has contacted Burgoyne at very least but only you seem to think he needs to come clean about anything. The rioli’s acknowledge Clarkson always had the right intent even if he made mistakes. He has attempted to visit Rioli recently before the article came out so clearly he still is trying to mend bridges. But Jeff is the current president and was part of the problem and can start the healing by leaving. He clearly doesn’t feel sorry for his words and actions over the years so he has to go. We call all sit here and throw stones at newbold but what would that achieve? He is gone. It is for the people at the club now to take action. Why do you keep defending Jeff?

Wish I could double like your post. Ask yourself what is Jeff bringing to Hawthorn currently?

Division - he's always been a divisive figure, even more so now..

Distraction - perhaps the lads were slow out of the blocks on Sunday because of this. We don't need any distraction's.

Accusations of racism - these will continue to fester while Jeff is about and the club will continue to be needled about it. Lance that boil!

Presenting a large negative target to the media. Caro's arrow was timed to help Carlton to perfection. This will keep happening.

Obstacle to funding by the state government according to some. I have no idea if this is true, but it is believable.

Turn off to future members, especially the younger, indigenous or those from 'minorities'

Poor governance - looking from the outside, the club does not seem to be as well run of late..


Added - wrt to constant negative media; eg from the post above. It's going to keep happening, the media will keep feeding.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

I think the relationship between friends and the relationship between Employer and Employee is a bit different …in fact it’s really different

I would agree. The post, however, was a direct response to another using the terms _________ friends, ______ friends, etc.

 

[Brishawk]

Nice. Dodge my questions and ask your own. No problem to me- I’ve already said Jeff should go. I think his position in untenable now and I think reconciliation with Rioli is far more important than his tenure continuing. But I don’t think the jeans episode is particularly damning for him.

Now why don’t you have a go.

The entire time I have stated that context in which things are said is important to understand why saying something can be ok in one situation and not in another. You are trying to strip out the context in your hypothetical but meaning is derived from the context, so what is it you want me to say abut it other than, it depends?

It is what he said, to whom, in the tone he used, and the gestures he used, in the place they were, among the people they with, the relationships they have (real and perceived), in the cultural milieu from which they both emerged that creates the potential for offence. It is the actions following the statement that harden the view of the Rioli's that he was unwilling to learn from the situation and that their position at the club was untenable. It was the ignored call for change among continued incentive statements that primed them to view the club as less than a safe place. It seems to me that you want to take what was said and remove it from the context in which it was said and then re-evaluate it in a new context. I can't see any value in this exercise because, depending on what context it is, it may or may not be ok. The words alone are not sufficient to evaluate meaning and potential outcomes.

 

[triple treat]

Don't really give a shit whether you are impressed or not.

It's not a noble argument that has been hijacked.

The poster in question was arguing against things anti racism advocates from within communities impacted by racism call for and for things white supremacists use to counter those calls

Now they could be telling the truth that they aren't white, or theu could be trolling like they do with the rest of their time on this site.

I don't know but not being white doesn't mean you can't get sucked into wrong ideas or end up supporting systemic racism that isn't directed against you personally.

Not really interested in getting into an argument with you (as i assume that i am the poster you're referring too). My opinion is my opinion and if you don't like the fact that i want to be looked apoun and treated the same as than the next person than good for. You can be culturally aware and sensitive without looking at someone and think i need to treat this person differently! What happen to Cyril and his partner needs to be investigated and the people that have been racially abusive towards them and anyone else at the club need to held to account. I personally don't think Kennett (all though he is a knob) meant anything racial with his comment about the jeans. Just one last thing sitting there and calling me a troll, can you please explain to me how you have come to this conclusion.

 

[TazHawk15]

In all this whole mess only one thing is giving me any comfort.

Sammy has been brilliant in his response and he seems hell bent on getting Cyril back as part of the Hawthorn family.
It’s pretty clear that will probably only happen once Geoff is gone, but I am confident it will happen.
Jeff is clearly the face of this whole mess, but others were at fault as well.

As I said in an earlier post I can’t believe that our club and every AFL club has not had cultural awareness training.
I did it last year and believe me when I tell you this “What you think you know about the subject will turn out to be not much at all”

In one exercise we had to do a interpretation drawing of a story and after we finished that drawing we had to write down the 5 most important people in our lives and then the 5 most important places and include them in the drawing. Then we heard a load bang and then we had to tear the whole drawing into strips losing the most important people and places in our lives.

In an instant the 5 most important people and places in my life were gone, it was a simple enough exercise but it really hit home.

To say I was enlightened after doing this course is an understatement.
I hope the club we all love, put everyone in our organisation through a course.

 

[Big Hotdog]

I struggle a little bit with this in that first week I felt the crowd turned on Goodes like they would have if it was Selwood in that he had in recent times done unpleasant things on the field and was also good enough to be a problem.

But if the indigenous players are coming to you to tell you that they feel the actions were hurtful and potentially racist, then our club should have listened. It became pretty evident that the lack of leadership from most clubs moving forward meant fans were booing and doing it to be racist and the AFL, it's clubs and us as fans should be very disappointed in the way we behaved and handled and treated Goodes.

Thats the key. For me listening to Caro is hard at the best of times but hearing that our Indigenous lads were so moved by the booing of Goodes that they made a point of it mid game in 2015. If I had of known that booing was causing our lads that level of distress then I know I would not have boo'd again and I like to think most others would not have either.

A missed opportunity at the time for our Club leaders not to have stood up but all we are left with now is the opportunity to be better.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Find it staggering that our own players felt really uncomfortable with the Goodes situation and the club did nothing to educate/inform the members and supporters.

 

[flinchfree]

That’s nice… But I can tell you in MY experience we are sick to death at being treated differently.

Just for my edification, you (or speaking as you have for all people of color - we) are sick of being treated differently in NOT being exposed to racist behavior, or in being treated in racist form?

So, just to be clear.
Are you saying you get treated differently in a way that bothers you, because people change the level of casual racist behavior - like jokes of questionable appropriateness - around you, and you want instead to be treated exactly the same and to the same level of racism/bigotry/misogyny that other Aussies seem to parlay amongst themselves?

I feel like you're suggesting you'd like to be treated 'equally', and thus even if that means being subjected to racism it's ok because if casual and uniform then you don't feel singled out and worse for the behavior....
Is that correct?

If so, I'd just like to say **** that, I don't want to be treated with racsim, or any other demeaning attitude nor do I wish my children to be subjected to it, all in the name of equality of culture.
Lets bin the idiots who can't give up being shitheads to others, for as long as it takes for them to die out.
You know, make the world a better and more loving place where people can maximize all they want out of themselves.

 

[Fleabane]

Don't really give a shit whether you are impressed or not.

It's not a noble argument that has been hijacked.

The poster in question was arguing against things anti racism advocates from within communities impacted by racism call for and for things white supremacists use to counter those calls

Now they could be telling the truth that they aren't white, or theu could be trolling like they do with the rest of their time on this site.

I don't know but not being white doesn't mean you can't get sucked into wrong ideas or end up supporting systemic racism that isn't directed against you personally.

Alright, I haven't read the whole thread - only read the last few posts. I still think shutting down arguments by throwing around incendiary rhetoric is a lazy/ disrespectful way to try to win a point. One thing, systemic racism is NOT treating people equally in the laws and regulations of the land, discriminating against them based on race. I agree, plenty of people have been sucked into thinking that's okay if it doesn't impact them personally. Fortunately for us the poster in question is clearly not in support of that even if I haven't read all of his/her posts.

 

[Gralin]

Not really interested in getting into an argument with you (as i assume that i am the poster you're referring too). My opinion is my opinion and if you don't like the fact that i want to be looked apoun and treated the same as than the next person than good for.

Wanting to be treated the same as everyone else I get, but how should we be treating everyone?
Because a lot of people would say that the way to be treated the same is to act the same, ie assimilation, erasure of culture, act white and talk white and you will get along with white people

You can be culturally aware and sensitive without looking at someone and think i need to treat this person differently!

Do you think the warning for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders about images and names of deceased people at the start of shows and articles is an example of what you want to see? Or do you see that as treating people differently?

What happen to Cyril and his partner needs to be investigated and the people that have been racially abusive towards them and anyone else at the club need to held to account. I personally don't think Kennett (all though he is a knob) meant anything racial with his comment about the jeans.

I don't think there is a circumstance where that comment is ok, I think Jeff's history is pretty well documented, this is normal behavior for him and he has a history of doing offensive things and brushing it off.

At what point do you stop giving him the benefit of the doubt?

Just one last thing sitting there and calling me a troll, can you please explain to me how you have come to this conclusion.

you're a bay poster who spends their time trolling, like that's what the bay is for but its not like anyone here knows you and can vouch for anything you say about who you are

 

[Gralin]

Alright, I haven't read the whole thread - only read the last few posts. I still think shutting down arguments by throwing around incendiary rhetoric is a lazy/ disrespectful way to try to win a point. One thing, systemic racism is NOT treating people equally in the laws and regulations of the land, discriminating against them based on race. I agree, plenty of people have been sucked into thinking that's okay if it doesn't impact them personally. Fortunately for us the poster in question is clearly not in support of that even if I haven't read all of his/her posts.

See the thing in Australia is people will tone police you to death when you are confronting them with language they don't like

How dare you call Jeff racist, that's really insulting, like have you paid attention to what he does?

Would you call Pauline Hanson racist? Or is that too inflammatory and lazy/disrespectful

What I notice is that the second someone brings up racism as a cause it's howled down, we've decided its taboo to talk about it, the worst thing that can happen to someone in Australia apparently is to be called a racist, even if what they have said or done looks racist.

It's great for the people that want to keep Australia racist, don't want to fix the problems in systems and carry on taking advantage of being white.

It fixes nothing though, which is the whole point of attacking people that use that language harder than the people they are accusing

 

[rjslcM]

Not really interested in getting into an argument with you (as i assume that i am the poster you're referring too). My opinion is my opinion and if you don't like the fact that i want to be looked apoun and treated the same as than the next person than good for. You can be culturally aware and sensitive without looking at someone and think i need to treat this person differently! What happen to Cyril and his partner needs to be investigated and the people that have been racially abusive towards them and anyone else at the club need to held to account. I personally don't think Kennett (all though he is a knob) meant anything racial with his comment about the jeans. Just one last thing sitting there and calling me a troll, can you please explain to me how you have come to this conclusion.

I agree in the sense that we can treat everyone with common decency and respect - and avoid poor jokes with others we hardly know. We can treat everyone the same in this sense.

Cultural awareness / sensitivity -> more understanding that everybody walks a different path and hopefully less d**kish behaviour to everyone you meet.

Maybe none of this would have involved Kennett if he simply didn’t make those jokes to anyone - from whatever culture - cos they’re really not funny. But he did. So let’s keep going with the idea that he could have said it to anyone and he was right to treat everyone equally.

The saddest part is that his comment would have likely never been interpreted as racist if the club and Kennett had stood up when issues arose, if our Indigenous players knew that he and the club really had their backs - if these players did receive different treatment compared to the majority on such issues. The fact that Kennett’s comment could be interpreted as racist really speaks to the lack of trust they had in the club around them and the lack of feeling that people were on their side. That is the true failing. So, did this lack of trust come from treating them the same (as you are arguing for) or come from treating them differently?

I will concede that treating people differently can lead to them feeling like an outsider, as you have pointed out - but so too can treating everyone the same. I will explain how this likely eventuated at Hawthorn:

When you’re a minority in an organisation, I suppose you might feel that minority status heavily (e.g. I’m not like the rest of these people, we joke about different things and use different words to make jokes; it’s harder for me to fit in.) I don’t have figures but surely people who are in a minority within an organisation are more likely to report feeling less employer and colleague support. So, let’s keep going with the idea that we should treat such people, who are in a minority, the same way we would treat anybody else.

Person A makes joke about Person B’s appearance, mannerism or other, as they would have done with Person C, because they believe they should just treat everyone the same.

Person B speaks to Person D about how that made them feel, because they feel like an outsider.

Person D gives Person B the same advice that they would have given Person A if in that scenario, because they believe in treating everyone the same:

“Oh someone used a derogatory term about how you speak/look/act mate, pfft, walk it off, you’ll be right”

Do you see the problem? Surely, this advice is a lot easier to handle for Person A, who shares more commonality with the dominant majority, and doesn’t feel like an outsider. Surely, for Person B, who already feels like they’re in a minority, they might feel a real lack of support and even more like an outsider. Paranoia develops and they look over their back because they no longer know who’s got it.

It’s important to show support and love and show extra care to those who may feel like they’re not ‘in the clique’, not just treat them the same. This is part of being a good person to me.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Not really interested in getting into an argument with you (as i assume that i am the poster you're referring too). My opinion is my opinion and if you don't like the fact that i want to be looked apoun and treated the same as than the next person than good for. You can be culturally aware and sensitive without looking at someone and think i need to treat this person differently! What happen to Cyril and his partner needs to be investigated and the people that have been racially abusive towards them and anyone else at the club need to held to account. I personally don't think Kennett (all though he is a knob) meant anything racial with his comment about the jeans. Just one last thing sitting there and calling me a troll, can you please explain to me how you have come to this conclusion.

The point is that Jeff has form. He has a golliwog collection with one called Buddy. He calls security guards at games "newcomers" to Australia. You might look at it as a jeans joke. But the honest people hear see it for what it is. Demeaning. Derogatory. And bottom line, racist.

 

[rjslcM]

im trying to find the racism in Jeff's comments. i just dont see it. It was a stupid comment but i think your drawing a long bow to link it to racism?

Let’s not call it racism then,

Let’s call it:

‘inadequate professionalism and support delivered to people of a minority within an organisation that made them feel like they were the subjects of poor treatment and targeted jokes due to their race’

Is that better?

 

[Brishawk]

im trying to find the racism in Jeff's comments. i just dont see it. It was a stupid comment but i think your drawing a long bow to link it to racism?

Context is everything. And it isn’t just that one comment.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

im trying to find the racism in Jeff's comments. i just dont see it. It was a stupid comment but i think your drawing a long bow to link it to racism?

This has been explained numerous times.

Ask the question on your own board.

 

[mcnulty]

The entire time I have stated that context in which things are said is important to understand why saying something can be ok in one situation and not in another. You are trying to strip out the context in your hypothetical but meaning is derived from the context, so what is it you want me to say abut it other than, it depends?

It is what he said, to whom, in the tone he used, and the gestures he used, in the place they were, among the people they with, the relationships they have (real and perceived), in the cultural milieu from which they both emerged that creates the potential for offence. It is the actions following the statement that harden the view of the Rioli's that he was unwilling to learn from the situation and that their position at the club was untenable. It was the ignored call for change among continued incentive statements that primed them to view the club as less than a safe place. It seems to me that you want to take what was said and remove it from the context in which it was said and then re-evaluate it in a new context. I can't see any value in this exercise because, depending on what context it is, it may or may not be ok. The words alone are not sufficient to evaluate meaning and potential outcomes.

Sorry, but I’m full up on word soup already. If you actually summon up the courage to answer a simple hypothetical let me know. Otherwise have a nice day.

 

[rjslcM]

no, it just poor taste and disrespectful

Read my last post before that one for greater insight.

 

[MrPremiership]

Everyone......this is an issue that is bigger than Jeff

 

[Denver Day Lewis]

That Footy Classified video is damning. Even more evidence on the failings of the club at the highest level.

For the coach, the leadership group, the board and the President to all say, "I didn't know..." reflects a total failing. Even if you take the many responses of "I didn't know" at face value, which is difficult to accept, you have a situation where the Indigenous liaison was only employed one day a week.

For a club with multiple Indigenous players, and one spruiking its bona fides since Chance Bateman

Chance Bateman

Age

43

Ht

175cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.1

4star

K

8.8

3star

HB

6.3

4star

M

3.9

4star

T

2.1

4star

CL

1.1

3star

No current season stats available

D

18.6

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.6

5star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.8

5star

CL

1.2

4star

helped change the culture, not putting the resources in place to deal with these issues and utterly failing to respond on multiple occasions (including, but not restricted to, the recently mentioned Goodes' booing game in 2015) is a total and inarguable refutation of any claim we may have had to having an acceptable working environment in place for Indigenous players.

We, as a club, including the supporters, have utterly failed on this. Kennett, the washed-up, racist old buffoon, represents the club and everything that is unacceptable about our approach thus far. He must go now.

Even when Kennett leaves, we have a lot of work to do, and his hand-picked board members remain in place. They need to go too. No doubt they will dig in, and say "I didn't know."

It seems Sam Mitchell is saying the right things. I hope he has sufficient influence, gained through his two decades of involvement with the club, to really change things. I hope they do change.

 

[Randall Stevens]

Find it staggering that our own players felt really uncomfortable with the Goodes situation and the club did nothing to educate/inform the members and supporters.

In defence of the Club on this point, I'm not sure what it could have done here?
There is already ample information out there for supporters of HFC (and all of society) to be educated if they want and/or the feel need to be.
However, while the club can presumably compel it's employees to undertake education, it cannot make this requirement of supporters.
It could certainly be argued that the Club and the AFL could do more to promote anti racism messaging, but ultimately it is up to individuals to be open to receiving the message no matter how strongly and regularly it is advanced.

It certainly appears that HFC has cultural issues to address, and the extent to which Cyril feels disenfranchised from the Club is very sad.
However, it is a vey big ask for HFC or any organisation to educate those who it does not have control over and who do not want to invest the time in receiving the education.

 

[Oooh Cyril]

Point to the bit where I said that please.

Furthermore if by "all those under kennett" you are referring to the player that used a racial slur to refer to a player's wife, I would agree that this was inexcusable. HOWEVER. I'm also more concerned about:
a) the possibility the player was likely not educated on the hurtful nature of his words BEFORE saying this (I say possibility, as I don't really know, but if he was , then the education was clearly not effective).
b) the apparent lack of education AFTER the incident to make it clear why his slur was not acceptable and why it was hurtful (again I say apparent, I only have Caro's article's view to provide insight on this, and I accept this may not provide a full view).
c) Why the concerns when raised with the club were not adequately addressed.

If I understand correctly, Kennett wasn't actually president at the time of the slur, so we can't put all this inaction at his feet, and we should definitely address the lack of inaction with anyone at the club at the time who is still there and allowed it to happen without any corrective measures being put in place. Kennett has a history of making culturally insensitive remarks though, so I'm not surprised we were not at the cutting edge of creating a safe environment for our indigenous players at the time and then afterwards when Kennett was back in power. He probably didn't have the capability to understand things were not as they should be, or at the very least, not as good as they could be.

I also hold Kennett at a higher level of conduct because he's a highly educated person in a leadership position, and had spent his entire life before being our club president in a line of work where crafting words is a key part of the job, and everyone in that profession understands that words have power and meaning. As such, holding Kennett to a different level of behaviour to an (apparently) ignorant player who the club (apparently) didn't do a good job of educating on cultural issues also seems fair. I wouldn't have called for the sacking of the player if I was in charge, but I would have called for education and counselling and made sure a sit down happened where the problem was addressed in a manner that provided closure for the people involved. In my mind, the club failed the player making the racial slurs too, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't have been consequences for them (as there has been for other AFL players in this situation).

So why do you think calling for Kennett to be made responsible for his actions and inactions over the years is in some way excusing the actions of others?

Very well written and balanced post. Why am I the only person who likes it?

 

[Brishawk]

Sorry, but I’m full up on word soup already. If you actually summon up the courage to answer a simple hypothetical let me know. Otherwise have a nice day.

I answered. You just don't like the answer