D.Pagan

[pauld]

OK, he is coach for a couple of years yet......
BUT......is our poor form ALL down to the crap player list we have ?
I feel Denis could have made a lot of better decisions during the season.
For a start I would have given K.Norman a game or three to help out down back.
Then, I would have given Kouta alot more time in the forward line.
I would have given more game time to the young talent in the Bullants, give them a taste.
I would have given Walker a forward crumbing role instaed of picking up the best opposition player, where most times he was beaten given the oppositions best player freedom to dominate.
I would have put Lance down back earlier, only because we do not have a defence.
I would have dropped Thornton a few times, surely there is another backman in the VFL who could have been tried ?
Any thoughts.........basically the coach needs to carry some responsibility for the mess of 2005......but in his press conferences he has two stock standard answers.
a/ We know where we are at, and are working hard on it.
b/ We trained very well during the week, can't explain what happened in the game, but we do have the youngest list.

WELL...e Bombers had their youngest team ever under Sheedy, and gave our kids a real hiding.

 

[Kooley]

This same thread was brought up not long ago. I agree with your sentiments. Pagan appears to get under the radar when it comes to criticism. He obviously has his favourites when selecting the team: Teague is one player who hasn't looked anyway near good enough this season but Pagan continues to play him ahead of someone like Norman who at least deserves one more opportunity.

 

[bibi01]

This same thread was brought up not long ago. I agree with your sentiments. Pagan appears to get under the radar when it comes to criticism. He obviously has his favourites when selecting the team: Teague is one player who hasn't looked anyway near good enough this season but Pagan continues to play him ahead of someone like Norman who at least deserves one more opportunity.

norman is a bludger who doesn't want to put in the hard yards, that is why he isn't being picked.

Note: selection comittee's picks sides each week, its not just the coach.

 

[pumped]

OK, he is coach for a couple of years yet......
BUT......is our poor form ALL down to the crap player list we have ?
I feel Denis could have made a lot of better decisions during the season.
For a start I would have given K.Norman a game or three to help out down back.
Then, I would have given Kouta alot more time in the forward line.
I would have given more game time to the young talent in the Bullants, give them a taste.
I would have given Walker a forward crumbing role instaed of picking up the best opposition player, where most times he was beaten given the oppositions best player freedom to dominate.
I would have put Lance down back earlier, only because we do not have a defence.
I would have dropped Thornton a few times, surely there is another backman in the VFL who could have been tried ?
Any thoughts.........basically the coach needs to carry some responsibility for the mess of 2005......but in his press conferences he has two stock standard answers.
a/ We know where we are at, and are working hard on it.
b/ We trained very well during the week, can't explain what happened in the game, but we do have the youngest list.

WELL...e Bombers had their youngest team ever under Sheedy, and gave our kids a real hiding.

I fully agree that Denis needs to take more responsibility for our form inconsistencies. I dont necessarily agree with all of your reasons above however.

Basically the first thing Denis needs to do is find a way to reach his players mentally. Karl Norman has not deserved any more chances on his present form and attitude. However I dont believe Denis has done nearly enough with him off field to get the best out of him.

Kouta is still potentially our best mid field option. However once again his passion is up and down like a yo yo. Thornton is a great option but not at full back. Playing there just seems to zap his confidence. Walker has pace and could be well suited to a season at half back. We certainly need pace in defence.Betts is our best forward crumbing option but needs to be given heaps more game time next season.

Everyone at Carlton needs to be accountable to themselves and to everyone else. It is time for every single person at the club to take responsibility and make the best of the situation we are in and stop looking for scapegoats.

 

[WTTF]

Kouta is still potentially our best mid field option. However once again his passion is up and down like a yo yo.

How is it when someone doesn't get 30 touches, all of a sudden they have no passion?

Ever heard of a bad game?

 

[mojo31]

How is it when someone doesn't get 30 touches, all of a sudden they have no passion?

Ever heard of a bad game?

Seems to me Kouta struggles every 2nd week. I think a lot depends on his knee and if he can run. Sometimes its okay and other times he really struggles with it.
Needs more bench time next year and to be nursed through and play more as an impact player.

 

[Kooley]

norman is a bludger who doesn't want to put in the hard yards, that is why he isn't being picked.

Note: selection comittee's picks sides each week, its not just the coach.

He wasn't a bludger when he had good season last year. What's happened to Pagan's ability to get the best out of wayward talent?

Pagan has lost his touch.

And Teague is a dud too.

 

[blangerang]

He wasn't a bludger when he had good season last year. What's happened to Pagan's ability to get the best out of wayward talent?

Pagan has lost his touch.

And Teague is a dud too.

your a dud

 

[Pivot]

Davies and Norman dont have the urgency, maybe. Pagan and the others need to get more out of the players like these two. What about playing Davies in the centre and Norman at CHB for 4 weeks - if no good then Normo and Davies cant say they didnt get a good go. They play full games with the licence to attack and be senior members. There is not enough faith put in some players by Pagan, particularly the young guys. Look at Clarkson, Eade and Wallace, they may not be world beaters but they have fresh ideas, they put alot of faith in their players and give them all heaps of responsibility. They play attacking footy and the young players play in key positions and in key midfield roles regularly. This does not happen enough at the Blues, nothing like this happens regularly enough.

I like Pagan but more kids need to be getting more senior responsibility much more regularly. More possession-type football should be played. We can play better at times when we have 300 plus possessions in a game. There is no Wayne Carye to have fewer possessions and bomb the ball into the forward 50. Hartlett and the O'hAilpins will hopefully be guns but arent just yet - I hope we find out as Pagan hasnt instilled me with a lot of confidence in how he handles not only young footballers but also young men, - Davies and Norman in particular.

 

[skillsy_44]

I have though for quite a while now that Denis isn't getting the most out of the players. Every other coach seems get scrutinised when their team is in a rut, Pagan and Malthouse manage to avoid it. They talk waffle in thier post match interviews and seem to find ridiculous excuses why the team isn't competitve. I don't think sacking him is the answer but maybe he needs to think about what he is doing right and wrong and change a few things.

He doesn't seem to have any tricks up his sleeve when things aren't going to plan. Playing Fevola full-back isn't a trick, it is just stupidity.

 

[Effes]

I have though for quite a while now that Denis isn't getting the most out of the players. Every other coach seems get scrutinised when their team is in a rut, Pagan and Malthouse manage to avoid it. They talk waffle in thier post match interviews and seem to find ridiculous excuses why the team isn't competitve. I don't think sacking him is the answer but maybe he needs to think about what he is doing right and wrong and change a few things.

He doesn't seem to have any tricks up his sleeve when things aren't going to plan. Playing Fevola full-back isn't a trick, it is just stupidity.

What can you get out of our players?

When will the majority realise we simply don't have the talent to be competitive every week.

Tricks up his sleeve? The team can't even win the ball! You don't worry about tricks up your sleeve unless you can actually win the ball

Kouta's performance yesterday was disgraceful!

 

[bibi01]

there could be a number of reason davies and norman are not getting a game.
talent alone should not guarantee anyone a game.
form in the seconds, dedication, team play, effort at training, intensity, ability to carry out given tasks and grabbing your opportunity when given all come into consideration.

i dare say that davies and norman are not doing these things at 100% while other players are.

its a tough thing, do you reward players who have talent and rely on their talent to get them through or do you reward players who put in 100% but are not that talent?

 

[bibi01]

What can you get out of our players?

When will the majority realise we simply don't have the talent to be competitive every week.

Tricks up his sleeve? The team can't even win the ball! You don't worry about tricks up your sleeve unless you can actually win the ball

Kouta's performance yesterday was disgraceful!

where was everyone the last few weeks acknowledging the carlton coaching staff on the back for their bag of tricks in getting 2 wins out of 4 games????????

what changed from round 20 to round 21?
we had the same 22 players.

Bluemike has got it in 1, our talent is still a couple of years away from being consistent match winners.

 

[its just sporn mum]

i havent reviewed the game yet. but youve gotta understand in footy a team goin at 95% intensity can get smashed by a team fully switched on. the priority pick dilemna would have surely been in the players minds and i reckon they were cruising a little but then it got out of hand.

 

[its just sporn mum]

i havent reviewed the game yet. but youve gotta understand in footy a team goin at 95% intensity can get smashed by a team fully switched on. the priority pick dilemna would have surely been in the players minds and i reckon they were cruising a little but then things got out of hand.

 

[Kooley]

your a dud

it's actually you're a dud banganang.

 

[Kooley]

i havent reviewed the game yet. but youve gotta understand in footy a team goin at 95% intensity can get smashed by a team fully switched on. the priority pick dilemna would have surely been in the players minds and i reckon they were cruising a little but then it got out of hand.

i don't understand how the pp situation can affect the intensity players play at and also considering there were so many players playing yesterday whose AFL careers were on the line you would think they wouldn't be cruising.

Instead you would hope they would be busting their guts out through pure fear to avoid getting the chop.

 

[its just sporn mum]

i havent reviewed the game yet. but youve gotta understand in footy a team goin at 95% intensity can get smashed by a team fully switched on. the priority pick dilemna would have surely been in the players minds and i reckon they were cruising a little but then things got out of hand.

 

[bibi01]

i don't understand how the pp situation can affect the intensity players play at and also considering there are so many players playing yesterday whose AFL careers are on the line that they would be cruising. You would think that they would be busting their guts out through pure fear that they were goingto get the chop.

you have to wonder if the PP plays any part in players mindsets.

i don't think any players wants to lose or tries to lose but it may be more the fact they they don't prepare themselves as best they could.
at traning or on gameday they take short cuts, knowing in the back of their minds that a win is fantastic but a loss and getting a PP and earlier draft picks also has its benifits.
its easy to say lets play for pride and the jumper but getting yourself up each week when the season is over at the 1/2 way mark must be pretty damn hard.

lets face it footy is all about premierships.

if joe bloggs in the top deck of the southern stand thinks PP will help, it must at least cross the players minds.

 

[WTTF]

it's actually you're a dud banganang.

Love you're work Kooley.

 

[pumped]

How is it when someone doesn't get 30 touches, all of a sudden they have no passion?

Ever heard of a bad game?

It is not how many touches Kouta gets that has me judge if he has passion or not. On another thread I have said Campo was lacking in passion yet had 30 touches.

Kouta is an incedibly gifted player who has only limited self belief. As such he very often loses confidence and plays without passion. This is not what we need from someone like Kouta who has the gift to be a great leader.

 

[bluevain]

It is not how many touches Kouta gets that has me judge if he has passion or not. On another thread I have said Campo was lacking in passion yet had 30 touches.

Kouta is an incedibly gifted player who has only limited self belief. As such he very often loses confidence and plays without passion. This is not what we need from someone like Kouta who has the gift to be a great leader.

You got it in one Mr Pumped. LEADERSHIP. Anthony Koutafides is certainly one of the best players to pull on the jumper in the past decade but I'm not sure if he has or ever will be a great leader. From the stands I see more onfield leadership from Lance and Stevo, but to be honest, neither of these guys are in the same league as Sticks was or Buckley, Riccuito or Cousins are today.

I'm not sure where leadership will come from the current group. I suppose on ly the inner sanctum have a vague idea. I just hope they emerge soon and create a new generation of Blues who have confidence and some spine so that these 10+ goal thrashings begin to subside a little in the coming years.

With regards to Pagan, I'd be happier if he didn't have to make any lame excuses after these sorts of thrashings. I think he'd be judging himself pretty strongly, there is no need for the media or supporters to do that. The reality is, our club doesn't need a brilliant game plans or revolutionary positional moves during the game to win matches. Right now we need skill, discipline and mental strength for 4 quarters. How many 4 quater games have they played this year? Given where we're at, I think we've got one of the best blokes in the caper and we should be backing him 200%. Into the future, I think he'd be wise to rotate in some new assistant coaches to bring fresh ideas and help the Blues not simply catch up to the modern game but actually excel at it.

 

[pumped]

You got it in one Mr Pumped. LEADERSHIP. Anthony Koutafides is certainly one of the best players to pull on the jumper in the past decade but I'm not sure if he has or ever will be a great leader. From the stands I see more onfield leadership from Lance and Stevo, but to be honest, neither of these guys are in the same league as Sticks was or Buckley, Riccuito or Cousins are today.

I'm not sure where leadership will come from the current group. I suppose on ly the inner sanctum have a vague idea. I just hope they emerge soon and create a new generation of Blues who have confidence and some spine so that these 10+ goal thrashings begin to subside a little in the coming years.

With regards to Pagan, I'd be happier if he didn't have to make any lame excuses after these sorts of thrashings. I think he'd be judging himself pretty strongly, there is no need for the media or supporters to do that. The reality is, our club doesn't need a brilliant game plans or revolutionary positional moves during the game to win matches. Right now we need skill, discipline and mental strength for 4 quarters. How many 4 quater games have they played this year? Given where we're at, I think we've got one of the best blokes in the caper and we should be backing him 200%. Into the future, I think he'd be wise to rotate in some new assistant coaches to bring fresh ideas and help the Blues not simply catch up to the modern game but actually excel at it.

Hi Bluevain,

My opinion on Kouta is not based so much on what I see on the field in his actions. It is his energy/precense that I talk of with regards to potential. I have met him many times over the years and when he is relaxed in himself he is an amazing person to be aroud. He has that rare power of charisma that only very few are gifted with.

However he is not in my opinion very self assured about his gift. As such he can ride up and down in his moods. Not that he is ever anything but a very polite and good bloke. However to be aroud him when he is relaxed is an amazing experience. To be around him when he is stressed makes you feel very disempowered in yourself.

Once Kouta fully believes in himself just being in his vicinity would lift the players around him. If you are confused by what I am talking about think back to how you have felt when he is in full flight. It is more than just watching a champion, there is an energy or an uplifting feeling that goes beyond nomal reaction to a great player.

Not that I have ever met Denis but I feel he also has this rare gift to affect people just as much with his energy as with his words. The only problem is that I believe Denis is also not as secure in himself as he used to be. As such the charisma that he has to empower when relaxed becomes a negative influence when he is not relaxed or at peace with himself.

If our two leaders could empower themselves our club could experience an amazing transformation.