Dank admits using Thymosin Beta 4

[Dave]

Good post. This is what I would like to see more of from Essendon supporters - present us with alternative theories, explanations and questions that are actually well thought out and logical. Much better than yeah, but nah, but Hirdy reckons we're all good, so what's the problem?

I don't have the answer to your questions, but would be keen to know. My guess only is that it's dangerous to assume that there is only evidence of one batch of TB4 because that's all that's been leaked to the media.

I agree, I'm not assuming there was only one batch, I'd just like to know why the AFL would have referenced only one in the statements of grounds. If it had been made public that Essendon had been receiving regular shipments of "Thymosin" then I'd suggest that the evil one, I mean Hird, would have been gone for good.

 

[Dave]

It was probably shandied down to make more. Accusations of forged scripts, blood tests and the like. It wouldn't surprise me.
Or Charters may have sent it direct to Dank. How many receipts and invoices do ASDADA have. More than one? depends what Charter handed over

Why would Charters have sent it straight to Dank except for one shipment? How many do they have? FIIK, I'm curious as to why the AFL only referenced the one delivery of "Thymosin".

 

[tigerwill]

I agree, I'm not assuming there was only one batch, I'd just like to know why the AFL would have referenced only one in the statements of grounds. If it had been made public that Essendon had been receiving regular shipments of "Thymosin" then I'd suggest that the evil one, I mean Hird, would have been gone for good.

it may have been that's all they found at that stage of the investigation. As we know it was ongoing for months after that. Investigators went to China, Charter may have supplied receipts and invoices. All this could have happened after the Interim Report was handed down. Possible, perhaps.

 

[Mutt]

No, 34 players were injected with a substance that the AFL has said has no independent verification other than its labelling.

Dave... you have little idea what evidence ASADA has for TB-4, nor if there will be more show cause notices for other substances, nor when ASADA will close its' investigation, and so the list of what you don't know goes on and on.

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

The point is that 34 players got shot up with no no taco juice and the club still claims it doesn't know what it is. And 34 players have SC notices.

I think we run the risk of falling into the very same trap of filling holes in our theories with bullshit and illogical fantasy that we accuse the Essendon supporters of if we are so dismissive of good questions like those posed by Dave. The amounts of TB4, that we know about at least, don't add up and that's a good point.

 

[Dave]

Dave... you have little idea what evidence ASADA has for TB-4, nor if there will be more show cause notices for other substances, nor when ASADA will close its' investigation, and so the list of what you don't know goes on and on.

Did you miss the bit in my first post where I said there may well be more evidence we don't know of?

How about addressing the questions I raised instead of attacking me based on who I follow? Too hard?

 

[nineteen eighty]

I reckon absolutely no doubt that he was trying to find loopholes. Look at AOD-9604 as a perfect example. He found the loophole there and thought he could give players AOD-9604 knowing full well it was banned but that if they got caught he could get off on a technicality.

This email proves it all. It's Dank's so called "Letter of Approval" from ASADA that he refuses to show anyone.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-03/new-evidence-contradicts-danks-claims-of-wada-approval/4667294

It is clear here that he was setting up an alibi by seemingly deliberately trying to misinterpret ASADA's email, several times even when told it could be banned under S0.



For mine "Thymosin" was also there for the same reason. As I wrote in another thread "Thymosin" is what TB4 is called within the industry. Everyone knows that when you ask for "Thymosin" you are asking for TB4.

If you have a look at this website for buying peptides the link to "Thymosin" only talks about TB4.

https://mrcpeptides.com.au/buy_thymosin_6_17.html

No disagreement re Thymosin reference. If you take a look at his clinic it only sells TB4 in addition to CJC etc.. All the drugs he was injecting into players across codes were used at his clinic.

I however, think he knew it was banned from the outset. Just that he knew there were no tests for it. The drugs he uses cannot be tested for. It's impossible to be picked up...oh unless you happen to be caught up in an ACC investigation.

 

[Laphroaig]

No, however the rules for possession are different to the rules for use or attempted use.

And stick to the subject, where did the additional TB4 come from?

My recollection was wrong re the number of consignments of Thymosin in the Statement of grounds. It was one. It was Hexarelin which was supplied and paid for on more than one occasion, which hardly makes things better.

You've asked a question which nobody knows the answer to. Ok. According to the SOG "no other supplier has yet been identified."

That is of interest, but flogging it and attempting to dictate the question as the only subject is not. It's hectoring, and largely meaningless. One injection is enough.

ANd BTW, I have been restrained regarding CLub personnel. If I ever wrote my full and frank views on the subject of Albert I'd be permabanned.

 

[Mutt]

Did you miss the bit in my first post where I said there may well be more evidence we don't know of?

How about addressing the questions I raised instead of attacking me based on who I follow? Too hard?

I'm not attacking you Dave. You'd know it if I was attacking you. I was pointing out that endless debate regarding 'details' we know little about is tedious.

 

[bing181]

... only evidence of one batch of TB4 because that's all that's been leaked to the media.

Evidence for use or attempted use of even one vial would be enough.

If it can be shown that Dank sourced TB4, and that Dank was injecting the Essendon players, you wouldn't need much more to establish the TB4 case to the level of probability required for an infringement.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Dank bought more TB4 from Charter, paid for it on Little's stolen credit card.

 

[SizzleChest]

34 allegedly, and that is a possibility that's been discussed on our board. The AFL's statement of grounds alleged that 'the Amino Acid appears to have been in storage at HyperMED for a considerable time prior to its use.'. From what I've read, TB4 once it has been made up cannot be stored for very long before it breaks down. Whilst I wouldn't discount it, IMO it's less likely because of this.

Just based on browsing body builder forums, TB-500 usually comes in vials of 2mg powder form and the bros reconstitute it with 2ml or so of sodium chloride. Typically one vial per injection and once prepared its only good for 8 days or so. In powder form it can last much longer.

Thinking about it now, selling TB4 as a 500ml prepared solution over the counter doesn't seem right. It would go bad way before an individual could use it all - and it would go bad by the time it found its way from Mexico to Hooper's clinic. Maybe its intended for a Mexican baseball teams or something. Also possible it was purchased in powder form but packaged in a 500ml vial and the Chiropractor prepared it.

 

[Laphroaig]

Thinking about it now, selling TB4 as a 500ml prepared solution over the counter doesn't seem right. It would go bad way before an individual could use it all - and it would go bad by the time it found its way from Mexico to Hooper's clinic. Maybe its intended for a Mexican baseball teams or something. Also possible it was purchased in powder form but packaged in a 500ml vial and the Chiropractor prepared it.

Also possible it wasn't TB4 and was something else. Like SARMS.

 

[Dave]

My recollection was wrong re the number of consignments of Thymosin in the Statement of grounds. It was one. It was Hexarelin which was supplied and paid for on more than one occasion, which hardly makes things better.

You've asked a question which nobody knows the answer to. Ok. According to the SOG "no other supplier has yet been identified."

So it's not worth discussing? How many different subjects have been discussed ad-nauseum over the past 18 months that no one had a definitive answer to?

That is of interest, but flogging it and attempting to dictate the question as the only subject is not. It's hectoring, and largely meaningless. One injection is enough.

Flogging it? I've made one post asking about it. It may not be the only subject, but I seem to recall most Essendon supporters being accused of "deflection" whenever they strayed from what the herd wanted to discuss.

ANd BTW, I have been restrained regarding CLub personnel. If I ever wrote my full and frank views on the subject of Albert I'd be permabanned.

That's nice, and I'm sure there's a thread that's relevant to it. Why bring in here? What does it add to the discussion?

 

[Dave]

I'm not attacking you Dave. You'd know it if I was attacking you. I was pointing out that endless debate regarding 'details' we know little about is tedious.

Isn't that what this board is for?

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

Evidence for use or attempted use of even one vial would be enough.

If it can be shown that Dank sourced TB4, and that Dank was injecting the Essendon players, you wouldn't need much more to establish the TB4 case to the level of probability required for an infringement.

Yep, I'm down with that. They would only have to have used it once and they're gone, as far as I'm concerned.

However, it's a bit of a hole in the narrative as my understanding of TB4 is that you need multiple doses over time to get benefit out of it. Yet the whole Charters-Alavi story accounts for only one dose for 3/4 of the players given SCNs. Maybe the "Mexican" drug accounts for another dose, or maybe Dank didn't know what the hell he was doing (quite possible), or there's more evidence that we haven't heard about, but I'd like this answered at some point.

 

[Gigantor]

Intent is enough, you do not need to be injected to be banned. Or did you miss the case of the VFL player who got intercepted by customs, never got the goods, let alone used them and still got banned. But of course the rules are different for a systemic program designed to give your players an edge over other teams. What you did is actually far worse and hopefully you get literally wiped out for it.

Sport is bigger than Essendon.

weren't the SCN's about actual usage rather than just intent

 

[go team]

Rubbish, learn the rules, a ban is a ban. Cycling team was banned because their team car had banned drugs in the boot. Never proved use, did not have to, whole team banned.

And the whole thread is about TB4, I should know, I created it. Lots of new Essendon posters coming in hear lately, seems like an effort to turn sentiment, too little too late.

Your sentiment is due to the lack of Essendon posters on Big Footy?

 

[Laphroaig]

Flogging it? I've made one post asking about it. It may not be the only subject, but I seem to recall most Essendon supporters being accused of "deflection" whenever they strayed from what the herd wanted to discuss.

Rubbish. You've castigated people for not following your chosen line of discussion.

In doing so, you weaken any point you might make rather than strengthen it.

 

[SizzleChest]

If Dank was sourcing TB4 from elsewhere, could he not also have been sourcing other substancse? The AFL made a big
deal out of the fact that Alavi never supplied Dank with Thymomodulin.

For mine, Dank had multiple suppliers, I don't think he was using Charter/Alavi exclusively during his AFL/NRL days. Dank seems like he's been around the sports science and gym industry long enough to know the who's who of peptides in Australia. Wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in ripping off Vansevenant either.

Given there are only two compounding pharmacists in Melbourne it shouldn't be too hard to determine this I'd have thought.

There are more than two compounding chemists in Melbourne. I think that if there is a smoking gun, it will be a supplier/chemist the ACC/ASADA have not revealed to the AFL. The ACC would have enough power to forensically investigate Dank's financial records and extrapolate what went down.

 

[Dave]

Rubbish. You've castigated people for not following your chosen line of discussion.

Castigated? That's a little strong. If someone is going to respond to what I wrote, why not respond to the content.

When Essendon supporters bring up something not directly related to the subject we are criticised for deflecting.

I guess turnabout is not fair play here.

 

[Dave]

Rubbish, learn the rules, a ban is a ban.

You mean the rules that say ordering a substance is deemed enough to be guilty of possession even if you don't receive it, but that attempted use requires proving intent. Those rules? Maybe you need a brush up yourself.

Cycling team was banned because their team car had banned drugs in the boot. Never proved use, did not have to, whole team banned.

If you're talking about Festina you might want to do some more research.

And the whole thread is about TB4, I should know, I created it. Lots of new Essendon posters coming in hear lately, seems like an effort to turn sentiment, too little too late.

Then why bring up an example of something unrelated to the use of TB4 which is what the current SC notices refer to?

 

[IanW]

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Thymosin-Beta-4-TB-500-CAS_1895105712.html

Yeah. You can buy the stuff in quantity.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Dank bought more TB4 from Charter, paid for it on Little's stolen credit card.

This is where I don't understand Dank. Surely he must have believed Essendon would purchase what he believed to be legal drugs. There was no advantage for Dank to steal a credit card for this. It's not like he was going to pay for them at all anyway.

Dank was not charged. I don't believe it.

Still, where there is smoke. Wonder why it was put on Little's(?) card?

 

[Argy]

This is where I don't understand Dank. Surely he must have believed Essendon would purchase what he believed to be legal drugs. There was no advantage for Dank to steal a credit card for this. It's not like he was going to pay for them at all anyway.

Dank was not charged. I don't believe it.

Still, where there is smoke. Wonder why it was put on Little's(?) card?

Here's a conspiracy theory: It could be that Hird used his influence on Little to buy these banned substances so they didn't appear on EFC's books. This might explain why Little is not going after Dank - Little is up to his nuts in it too.