Opinion Do you have faith in our list?

[Next Waiting]

I don't.

And that's not an endorsement or a criticism of the coach.

It's an ordinary list with a current star, a club legend and a couple KPPs that could be anything.

Otherwise....meh

 

[maddog37]

Not sure it’s that black and white. Some players that I don’t really enjoy watching now I feel could be much better with clearer role definition and overall structure.

We do have too many recycled types imho.

 

[ScragCity]

I have faith in Lachie Bramble

 

[cecil]

Nope. We are still quite unbalanced and have no quality pressure small forwards, no high quality hybrid defenders, and no quality outside mids. It's made worse by the game pivoting towards those roles being crucial

 

[Fossie 32]

I don't.

And that's not an endorsement or a criticism of the coach.

It's an ordinary list with a current star, a club legend and a couple KPPs that could be anything.

Otherwise....meh

Harsh. As well as those four we have Darcy, Sanders, Jones, Ed, Treloar, JOD, Cody to start with. But hardly any are playing close to their best - if they did I would think we’d be 6th to 8th best

 

[Hobdog]

No.


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[ScragCity]

This is the fittest list we have ever lost to the Bombers with

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I think the cost of drafting a couple of generational talls is starting to manifest itself in our team. We've invested so heavily in talls over the last 5 years that it has hollowed out our midfield depth to a point where we dont really have any depth it all. If only the media would recognise this. This of course hasn't been helped by what we would've been banking on as adding to our midfield depth and the bridge to the midfields future either leaving the club or having a season ending ACL injury during the pre-season. These two guys alone would've lifted our midfield stocks to the point where we would've had genuine options for rotations and our wings.

Instead of the current situation where we are trying to shoehorn a revolving door of the untried, cast-offs or the hopelessly inconsistent players into what are now two of the most important positions in the game. This of course isn't helped by a coaching panel that refuses to shake things up in the middle beyond burning out a guy with a handful of games under his belt. Or trying it when the horse has bolted beyond sight. But thats a story for other threads.

I questioned a few years ago whether we were setting up for a war that nobody else was fighting by going so tall. When on the back of Richmonds dynasty (throws up in mouth a little) the game was clearly moving towards that of blitzkrieg with perhaps 2 tall targets. I think with our dogmatic insistence on playing most of the game with 3 tall's forwards and without any real pressure forwards Weightman and West are more hybrids). As we saw against a pedestrian Essendon't, it's pretty clear that we aren't well set for where the game was going. I understand that we had little choice but to select Darcy and JUH not to do so would've been one of the greatest drat blunders of all time, but its come at a cost.

We can only hope that we see a new coaching regime sooner rather than later. Because on paper this team is underachieving on an epic level. As of right now, that paper isn't (metaphorically) fit for wiping ones arse.

Ask again in a week...

 

[Libba39]

I used to have faith in our list, but the losses of Dunkley and Lipinski, combined with the potential loss of Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

24

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

means we have a massive gap in terms of 23-27 year-old midfielders.

At either end of the ground we have height but lack real positional power that other teams have. May, Mihocek, Hawkins. Players that take space and hold their ground. Lobb was not the answer but I understand why we got him, as although Darcy is a gun he will continue to get rag-dolled in the ruck for the next 2-3 years.

In terms of small forwards we seem to have addressed this, but the group we have also seem to go missing all too often. West, Weightman, A.Jones and Vandermeer, with Clarke waiting in the wings. I'm yet to see anything from Clarke to make me think he's not the next Mitch Honeychurch

Mitch Honeychurch

Age

29

Ht

175cm

Wt

70kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.5

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

4.2

5star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

5.8

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

4.8

5star

G

0.6

3star

.

We have some solid flanker or utility types. Richards, Dale, Williams. I'd put Khamis in this group, as well as Cleary and Bedendo.

There is definitely a lot to like about the list, but don't rate it anywhere near as highly as what some on here do. We lack speed and physicality which means we find it hard to impact games when things aren't going our way.

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[Walsh Bay]

Our list is way over-rated, in my opinion.

English - Nice contested mark in the forward line, but so he should be at that height. Underwhelming at best as a ruck.
Gardner - Honest trier with self-evident limitations. Would be depth at any club.
Keath - Body gone. Depth at best.
L Smith - Long term project. Jordan Sweet syndrome.
O'Driscoll - Injury, will take a while to challenge, and he's coming from a fair way back.
Johannisen - Needs things to be going his way to have impact.
Garcia - Defensive limitations on show last year. Good VFL player. Will get another go, but the limitations....
Cleary - Not setting the world alight.
Daniel - Game and his physical limitations catching up with him.
Williams - Has a little curl in his forehead. Constantly played out of position, not his fault.
Naughton - Not the weapon he should be. Marooned.
A Jones - Doesn't get enough of it, defensively poor.
Dale - Fell off a cliff.
McNeil - Works hard but is severely limited. The definition of depth.
Freijah - Looks promising, but raw.
Bramble - Has a go but also has a ceiling.
Scott - Has a go but also has a ceiling. Depth.
Bedendo - Isn't going to make it.
Poulter - Top up. Was let go by the Pies for a reason.
Khamis - Coming along. But a third defender.
Vandermeer - Much maligned but can at least get from one contest to another. Patent limitations.
Coffield - Injury-wrecked.
Harmes - Role player. Was let go by the Dees for a reason.
Richards - One of our few underrated players. Goer.
Liberatore - Genuinely elite. But has been beaten up for years and is 32.
L Jones - Superb, respected full back in an embarrassingly underequipped defence. Is 33.
O'Donnell - Project player who's shown signs but has a way to go.
Croft - Early days.
Duryea - Honest, sometimes clever defender who's pretty much done. Is 33.
West - Does the job. He and Weightman provide 50% of our mental energy.
Baker - Just goes. Prefer others.
Gallagher - Nice start, let's see if he has any tricks in his bag.
Macrae - 200 game player so deserves club respect. But has never panicked opposition coaching boxes. Downhill from here.
Darcy - Yes. Can play. Will be the real deal.
Sanders - Shows every sign of being a good midfielder in a year or two.
Clarke - Probably should have seen more of him by now. At least he hates losing.
Lobb - Polyfilla to appease a coaching team that's confused.
B Smith - Has been a disappointment in the last two seasons. Gone, anyway.
Busslinger - KPDs take a while but this is like watching a glacier melt. Injury has held him back.
Bontempelli - Best player in the game whose body is showing signs of the attention he gets and whose mind may well be showing signs of leading an underwhelming, often uncompetitive team.
Weightman - Talent but we have no clear idea what to do with him. His natural game interferes with team-mates.
Ugle-Hagan - Talent. Still goes missing. Is old enough and talented enough to impose himself now.
Treloar - Has been the best recruit in recent years. Under-rated here. But is 31.

It's middle of the road stuff. This Cornesian idea that we're wasting a side with top flight talent is legitimately contestible.

 

[CarnTheScray]

List is unbalanced for sure but I do not think it is all doom and gloom, think the majority of the problems are rectifiable with position changes, an actually active trade period, giving younger players a go over one of the half dozen delisted players limited in ability we pick up every offseason (also stop recruiting these guys).

Oh and of course a new coach.

 

[Erect]

It's hard to tell whether our players are overrated and won't do any better under a different coach, or if we have capable players but they aren't being coached to play to their strengths.

 

[Next Waiting]

List is unbalanced for sure but I do not think it is all doom and gloom, think the majority of the problems are rectifiable with position changes, an actually active trade period, giving younger players a go over one of the half dozen delisted players limited in ability we pick up every offseason (also stop recruiting these guys).

Oh and of course a new coach.

I guess I'm thinking of more where we are in the here and now. There is the hope that draft/trade season might bring at the end of the year but for this season at least we are screwed (barring a miracle). Many draft, trade and list management chickens are coming home to roost this season and they are sh1tting everywhere. I'm expecting an outbreak of bird flu. Maybe that was the mystery virus on Friday....

 

[Dogsman16]

All Australian calibre players English, Dale, Daniel and Macrae all incredibly out of sorts and we have another 600k per year player sitting in the 2s (Lobb).

Results in a bottom 6 of either very inexperienced players or castoffs from other clubs contributing extremely inconsistent performances. And if our stars have the occasional bad game it’s pretty much curtains on that game.

 

[dogwatch]

It’s very hard to assess the list in isolation, independent of the impact of how they are coached.

That in turn can help justify one’s argument for or against Bevo.
So …

If I’m a “Bevo Out” man, yes I have faith in our list (no list is perfect but it has most of what we need).

If I’m a Bevophile, no (it has too many holes and they lack application and the killer instinct.)

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Our list is way over-rated, in my opinion.

English - Nice contested mark in the forward line, but so he should be at that height. Underwhelming at best as a ruck.
Gardner - Honest trier with self-evident limitations. Would be depth at any club.
Keath - Body gone. Depth at best.
L Smith - Long term project. Jordan Sweet syndrome.
O'Driscoll - Injury, will take a while to challenge, and he's coming from a fair way back.
Johannisen - Needs things to be going his way to have impact.
Garcia - Defensive limitations on show last year. Good VFL player. Will get another go, but the limitations....
Cleary - Not setting the world alight.
Daniel - Game and his physical limitations catching up with him.
Williams - Has a little curl in his forehead. Constantly played out of position, not his fault.
Naughton - Not the weapon he should be. Marooned.
A Jones - Doesn't get enough of it, defensively poor.
Dale - Fell off a cliff.
McNeil - Works hard but is severely limited. The definition of depth.
Freijah - Looks promising, but raw.
Bramble - Has a go but also has a ceiling.
Scott - Has a go but also has a ceiling. Depth.
Bedendo - Isn't going to make it.
Poulter - Top up. Was let go by the Pies for a reason.
Khamis - Coming along. But a third defender.
Vandermeer - Much maligned but can at least get from one contest to another. Patent limitations.
Coffield - Injury-wrecked.
Harmes - Role player. Was let go by the Dees for a reason.
Richards - One of our few underrated players. Goer.
Liberatore - Genuinely elite. But has been beaten up for years and is 32.
L Jones - Superb, respected full back in an embarrassingly underequipped defence. Is 33.
O'Donnell - Project player who's shown signs but has a way to go.
Croft - Early days.
Duryea - Honest, sometimes clever defender who's pretty much done. Is 33.
West - Does the job. He and Weightman provide 50% of our mental energy.
Baker - Just goes. Prefer others.
Gallagher - Nice start, let's see if he has any tricks in his bag.
Macrae - 200 game player so deserves club respect. But has never panicked opposition coaching boxes. Downhill from here.
Darcy - Yes. Can play. Will be the real deal.
Sanders - Shows every sign of being a good midfielder in a year or two.
Clarke - Probably should have seen more of him by now. At least he hates losing.
Lobb - Polyfilla to appease a coaching team that's confused.
B Smith - Has been a disappointment in the last two seasons. Gone, anyway.
Busslinger - KPDs take a while but this is like watching a glacier melt. Injury has held him back.
Bontempelli - Best player in the game whose body is showing signs of the attention he gets and whose mind may well be showing signs of leading an underwhelming, often uncompetitive team.
Weightman - Talent but we have no clear idea what to do with him. His natural game interferes with team-mates.
Ugle-Hagan - Talent. Still goes missing. Is old enough and talented enough to impose himself now.
Treloar - Has been the best recruit in recent years. Under-rated here. But is 31.

It's middle of the road stuff. This Cornesian idea that we're wasting a side with top flight talent is legitimately contestible.

 

[Libba39]

It’s very hard to assess the list in isolation, independent of the impact of how they are coached.

That in turn can help justify one’s argument for or against Bevo.
So …

If I’m a “Bevo Out” man, yes I have faith in our list (no list is perfect but it has most of what we need).

If I’m a Bevophile, no (it has too many holes and they lack application and the killer instinct.)

I think we need royal commission into bevophilia...

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[BallaratBulldog]

I think our bottom six would be better with a new coaches system, let alone with a functioning forwardline.

But they aren’t great on paper

 

[hutchy31]

As others have said, it’s difficult to know until you see them operate under a new coach/system/culture. It’s not the best list in the comp, it has holes at key defender, wing, small forward and speed in general. On the flip side, most coaches would kill to have the young forward talent we have as well as Bont and Libba in the engine room.

It’s probably not a flag list regardless of who the coach is, but it should be performing better than this imo. The club feels almost rudderless at the moment and I’d be shocked if the coach, CEO and board are on the same page on expectations of the team.

 

[CarnTheScray]

As others have said, it’s difficult to know until you see them operate under a new coach/system/culture. It’s not the best list in the comp, it has holes at key defender, wing, small forward and speed in general. On the flip side, most coaches would kill to have the young forward talent we have as well as Bont and Libba in the engine room.

It’s probably not a flag list regardless of who the coach is, but it should be performing better than this imo. The club feels almost rudderless at the moment and I’d be shocked if the coach, CEO and board are on the same page on expectations of the team.

Think you’ve done well illustrating the weaknesses. Key defence could be rectified by moving Naughton there (please don’t reply to this arguing that he will never go there, it’s not the point of the comment), JOD is more of a flanker than a really key defender, same for Khamis but we know what we get with him already.

Wings, haven’t thought about how Dale would go there, I think his time in defence is up if we are seriously moving forward. No idea who else could go there.

Small forwards, why do they never, at least for one game, give the young guys from the VFL a go with the role of making sure that once the ball hits the ground it does not leave that forward 50. Would surely give us more than seeing Vandermeer or Macrae be our only target inside 50.

Speed is the big one. I think Saints will kill us in pace on Thursday. Don’t actually have to be lightning quick, plenty of teams are getting by without being the fastest teams alive just by smart ball movement in transition (something we suck at massively). But yeah should definitely focus on that in the trade period as well.

 

[perro_loco]

In 2014 I thought our list was poor but the reality was that we had a bad coach. Bevo changed that and got us the Premiership. I think Bevo has run out of ideas and his offsiders are quite mediocre, As a result of this mediocrity, our list appears mediocre to poor. A new coach, a new message and a different way of doing things would make many players come out of their shells. I think the problem since 2021 is the coach and coaching staff. And the poor coaching is due to our BoD not having the guts to make the tough decisions. Serious questions need to be asked at the club level. If I were a player at the Doggies atm, I would look to play elsewhere. We are going nowhere. Our bottom 7 players are VFL standard only. That is: JJ, Duryea, Gardner, Keath, VDM, Bramble, Baker.

 

[ringa5]

For too many years now they topped up with players from other clubs not winning us premierships . Jones and Treloar the exception .l thought maybe Bramble too,but the Jury is still out.And Coffield is different because of injuries .Otherwise they all play an outstanding game or two then back to the level that got them delisted. The dogs have only ever been good at bringing up our own players.Beverige has tried to hang on for too long by topping up..And as the leaders aged we are found out. Could have been a defining moment last year if we traded English for Reid.Or Smith for Hawthorn first..Didnt happen and Sanders is not Reid and will take time.
Beveridge to be fair realizes this now ,too late as it be.
So now the inevitable predicament rebuild.
Or trade and hopefully strike gold.

 

[stefoid]

Its not the list.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I think one glaring issue has been our acquisitions from other clubs since we won the flag.

This won’t be all of them.

The following players were basically unsuccessful beyond a season or so (if that):

• Cloke
• Lloyd
• Trengove
• Martin
• O’Brien
• Schache
• Lobb
• Harmes
• Poulter

Baker and Bramble are pending but I doubt they will be long term players.

The better ones:

• Treloar
• Duryea
• Crozier
• Keath
• Jones
• Bruce (although he only had one good season and could go in the other list)

Even though Treloar has been good, we had a stacked midfield already, with Lipinski and Smith coming up. Imagine we had instead pressed Collingwood for Grundy, Cameron or even Cox. Might have fixed our ruck issue.

With Bruce, I don’t know we would have been much worse if we’d not bothered and stuck with Schache and Naughton for another few seasons.

So I don’t think we’ve been targeting the right players at all, and it’s come at the expense of list spots, cap room, development, opportunities in the side and draft picks (though not too many).

Part of it has been our obsession with targeting mature talls, most of whom have not worked. Ironically most of our successful talls are home grown.

We’ve also kept a lot of players for a long time who have not been in the side or available for long stretches. Crozier, Wallis, Roberts, Jong, Schache, McLean etc. We’ve probably been too generous with longer deals than needed.

I think we’d be a lot better if we’d cured the ruck issue, kept Lipinski etc and gone to the draft with more second rounders to replenish the midfield.

 

[adogsfan5]

Won’t know until we have a new coach and a system in place.