Review Grand Final, 2024 - Sydney vs. Brisbane Lions

[twhowler]

I believe we had some bad loses tactically early on. Geelong in the wet being a prime example.

Completely agree re Geelong. We just played the dumbest footy. Kept letting them get out the back and kick goals from 5m out. And kept going for ambitious corridor footy. Just so everyone knows i am the one to mercilessly mock in the future, i standby we have a bit of a plan b issue haha FEEL FREE TO BRAND ME AN IDIOT AND SKIP MY POST i won't mind...

When we are getting outplayed we seem to struggle to limit the damage - to adjust to what is hurting us or change something that means the opposition has to respond. We don't seem to have many moves that really put the opposition off. when we are bombing it in and not scoring we seem to struggle to adjust. The good thing is we managed to finally make some changes late in the season. First of all with some kick mark, and then the ability to switch from that to pace on the ball. It seemed to catch the giants and cats napping.

On the micro level, Payne on Hogan was an excellent example. Payne just had to be moved. Hogan was killing us. We get back to 13 points down, Payne is still on him, and Hogan kicks one and gives off another. Should have killed off the contest. We somehow got back. And Payne won a key contest or two, and went on to play well in the finals. So yes you could argue Fagan played the long game, kept Payne's confidence up, and got rewarded

But by god fages got lucky didn't he?

The 2023 Grand Final - our midfield just struggled all day. We didn't seem to be able to stop that happening or stop them playing so well through their wings. We kept kicking it long down the line at the end of quarters even though it was patently not working. And Harris was getting completely taken out of the game by an absolute dud for 3 quarters. I don't think it was a very good day for our coaching panel.

But then in the 2024 GF we did brilliantly. The gameplan worked. We were patient when it was struggling. The group had complete belief in each other. We took away Sydney's weapons well without taking away too much attacking intent.

I absolutely love what fages has done for the club. On every level. And i love the Whately quote re winning the 2024 flag - if Fagan let catostrophe in, it would have consumed the club. It's impossible to say what any us would have done without being privy to all the information in the club, but gee i would have been tempted to play the kids after the bye, try some things, plan for 2025. That is to say if i were in charge - i reckon i might have made a very poor decision!

My point - i think it's possible to say Fagan has been a bit limited in his tactics and adaptability, while still saying he has been phenomenal for the club and a very good and capable coach.

 

[dlanod]

Harris was getting completely taken out of the game by an absolute dud for 3 quarters.

This one's still a myth that's got legs because the Pies love it.

Harris didn't have as much impact because the Pies were bombing it from the 50 or hitting up midfielders and small forwards running forward from the contest where we weren't following fast enough. Frampton had no real impact upon Harris' game, it was the way the opportunities/game plan played out for the Pies.

It was only when they tired a bit and we tightened up that the Pies bombed it forward more and Harris came into the game.

 

[Gadzorks]

This one's still a myth that's got legs because the Pies love it.

Harris didn't have as much impact because the Pies were bombing it from the 50 or hitting up midfielders and small forwards running forward from the contest where we weren't following fast enough. Frampton had no real impact upon Harris' game, it was the way the opportunities/game plan played out for the Pies.

It was only when they tired a bit and we tightened up that the Pies bombed it forward more and Harris came into the game.

In a three hour gave there is always vision that can be used to tell a 100 different stories.

I wonder. Do the the big american sports, I'm thinking basketball in particular, have as much room for interpretation? 10 players on a postage stamp sized court (especially for the size of the players), are there options available or does the play follow limited options that can't be interpreted 100 different ways.

Obviously I'm not a follower.

 

[dlanod]

In a three hour gave there is always vision that can be used to tell a 100 different stories.

I wonder. Do the the big american sports, I'm thinking basketball in particular, have as much room for interpretation? 10 players on a postage stamp sized court (especially for the size of the players), are there options available or does the play follow limited options that can't be interpreted 100 different ways.

Obviously I'm not a follower.

Yes.

Originally steals were seen as great and anyone who went for them were gods. Then it turned out going for them usually damaged actual defensive efforts, results in fouls, and doesn't necessarily result in a turnover, so a large number of steals was seen as reckless. And now it's somewhere in between.

The same as defensive efforts in general - is the superstar a poor defender or saving energy or playing within the structure or all three? Or is someone putting up points doing so efficiently or would be better off passing - there's heaps of these opinion moments, but analytics are a lot bigger deal over there so there is actually meaningful answers to some of the offensive questions but less on defence.

 

[On the quiet]

Completely agree re Geelong. We just played the dumbest footy. Kept letting them get out the back and kick goals from 5m out. And kept going for ambitious corridor footy. Just so everyone knows i am the one to mercilessly mock in the future, i standby we have a bit of a plan b issue haha FEEL FREE TO BRAND ME AN IDIOT AND SKIP MY POST i won't mind...

When we are getting outplayed we seem to struggle to limit the damage - to adjust to what is hurting us or change something that means the opposition has to respond. We don't seem to have many moves that really put the opposition off. when we are bombing it in and not scoring we seem to struggle to adjust. The good thing is we managed to finally make some changes late in the season. First of all with some kick mark, and then the ability to switch from that to pace on the ball. It seemed to catch the giants and cats napping.

On the micro level, Payne on Hogan was an excellent example. Payne just had to be moved. Hogan was killing us. We get back to 13 points down, Payne is still on him, and Hogan kicks one and gives off another. Should have killed off the contest. We somehow got back. And Payne won a key contest or two, and went on to play well in the finals. So yes you could argue Fagan played the long game, kept Payne's confidence up, and got rewarded

But by god fages got lucky didn't he?

The 2023 Grand Final - our midfield just struggled all day. We didn't seem to be able to stop that happening or stop them playing so well through their wings. We kept kicking it long down the line at the end of quarters even though it was patently not working. And Harris was getting completely taken out of the game by an absolute dud for 3 quarters. I don't think it was a very good day for our coaching panel.

But then in the 2024 GF we did brilliantly. The gameplan worked. We were patient when it was struggling. The group had complete belief in each other. We took away Sydney's weapons well without taking away too much attacking intent.

I absolutely love what fages has done for the club. On every level. And i love the Whately quote re winning the 2024 flag - if Fagan let catostrophe in, it would have consumed the club. It's impossible to say what any us would have done without being privy to all the information in the club, but gee i would have been tempted to play the kids after the bye, try some things, plan for 2025. That is to say if i were in charge - i reckon i might have made a very poor decision!

My point - i think it's possible to say Fagan has been a bit limited in his tactics and adaptability, while still saying he has been phenomenal for the club and a very good and capable coach.

Tend to agree.
It was obvious that Payne was struggling with his knee injury sustained the previous week against Carlton, and Hogan in the 2nd and 3rd Q's, was dominating. In previous games Payne has played well against Hogan, and importantly Payne did win or even a number of contest in the last Q.
Watching it on TV, the commentators were surprised that with Payne carrying an injury, why was the co-captain and our best defender, Andrews not taking Hogan. Fortunately Joe stepped up when needed, with those two great goals, Payne makes a great tackle the following week against the Cats and the rest is history.

 

[KissKiss]

Yes.

Originally steals were seen as great and anyone who went for them were gods. Then it turned out going for them usually damaged actual defensive efforts, results in fouls, and doesn't necessarily result in a turnover, so a large number of steals was seen as reckless. And now it's somewhere in between.

The same as defensive efforts in general - is the superstar a poor defender or saving energy or playing within the structure or all three? Or is someone putting up points doing so efficiently or would be better off passing - there's heaps of these opinion moments, but analytics are a lot bigger deal over there so there is actually meaningful answers to some of the offensive questions but less on defence.

I really love in US sports how they look at things like +/-. They realised that some guys arent out there racking up points or other critical stats but the team analytically seems to play a heap better when they are on the court.

 

[twhowler]

This one's still a myth that's got legs because the Pies love it.

Harris didn't have as much impact because the Pies were bombing it from the 50 or hitting up midfielders and small forwards running forward from the contest where we weren't following fast enough. Frampton had no real impact upon Harris' game, it was the way the opportunities/game plan played out for the Pies.

It was only when they tired a bit and we tightened up that the Pies bombed it forward more and Harris came into the game.

Accepting that in full, wasn't it still up to us to get Harris in the game more?

 

[dlanod]

Accepting that in full, wasn't it still up to us to get Harris in the game more?

IMO we were definitely out coached to a degree in that GF. They had a plan for us. We were sticking to old faithful.

 

[Tom14]

IMO we were definitely out coached to a degree in that GF. They had a plan for us. We were sticking to old faithful.

Many many things I’d put as bigger issues than our plan for Harris - mids got belted, our small defenders lacked computer, and the Rayner to the backline in the last 5 mins of qtrs killed us more.

 

[Dalions]

Many many things I’d put as bigger issues than our plan for Harris - mids got belted, our small defenders lacked computer, and the Rayner to the backline in the last 5 mins of qtrs killed us more.

I just remembered, other than at the G on Grand Final day, I have never re-watched the 2023 Grand Final.

 

[martinson]

Many many things I’d put as bigger issues than our plan for Harris - mids got belted, our small defenders lacked computer, and the Rayner to the backline in the last 5 mins of qtrs killed us more.

That was the big one . Plus our prep.leading into the game, Dunkley slipping over etc. etc.

It was a miracle we got so close.

We knew it too. In hindsight were the Pies really that good a team anyway ?

It's a game I've tried to erase from my memory but still it lingers.

If we can win another one with this group then justice will have been served. Because we fully earnt it in 2024 after what we had to do to get there.

 

[dlanod]

Many many things I’d put as bigger issues than our plan for Harris - mids got belted, our small defenders lacked computer, and the Rayner to the backline in the last 5 mins of qtrs killed us more.

I'm not sure about the defenders not taking out laptops but the rest, yep.

 

[rye]

I'm not sure about the defenders not taking out laptops but the rest, yep.

now the thing is dlanod... i look at brandon starcevich. what is his brand? hes stuck in no mans land on bobby hill.... where was his HP Pavilion 16' with Intel™ Ultra Core 7? Craig Macrae brained Chris Fagan in the coaches box. Its time to pursue Chris Scott.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I just remembered, other than at the G on Grand Final day, I have never re-watched the 2023 Grand Final.

Don't bother; it's overrated.

 

[Grasshopper17]

That was the big one . Plus our prep.leading into the game, Dunkley slipping over etc. etc.

It was a miracle we got so close.

We knew it too. In hindsight were the Pies really that good a team anyway ?

It's a game I've tried to erase from my memory but still it lingers.

If we can win another one with this group then justice will have been served. Because we fully earnt it in 2024 after what we had to do to get there.

In fairness to Collingwood they did have the best percentage in the AFL in 2023. And while there were many better teams over the last 20-30 years, they were easily the best I've seen at nailing close end-of-game scenarios. Of course the cynical translation of that is "manipulating the rules and interpretations to their advantage".

Having said that, I thought on the day our performance was pretty ordinary, particularly after half time, and I stand by that. I thought on a hot day, the longer the game went the more our inability to spread from stoppages and contests became noticeable and detrimental to our performance. Particularly given those conditions should have suited us.

After the game Fages lamented our willingness to take the game on with bold disposal, but you can't make bold decisions with the ball if there's nobody to give it to in those "bold" positions.

So given Collingwood only won the game by 4 points, perhaps they weren't that great either

Having said that, Fages' press conference after the 2023 Grand Final was outstanding... Unlike the game itself I'd say that is something worth rewatching.

 

[Grasshopper17]

now the thing is dlanod... i look at brandon starcevich. what is his brand? hes stuck in no mans land on bobby hill.... where was his HP Pavilion 16' with Intel™ Ultra Core 7? Craig Macrae brained Chris Fagan in the coaches box. Its time to pursue Chris Scott.

Dom Fay really needs to package up his and Mike's p!ss take of Kingy on this week's Roar Deal and post it on the socials. Hilarious.

 

[martinson]

In fairness to Collingwood they did have the best percentage in the AFL in 2023. And while there were many better teams over the last 20-30 years, they were easily the best I've seen at nailing close end-of-game scenarios. Of course the cynical translation of that is "manipulating the rules and interpretations to their advantage".

Having said that, I thought on the day our performance was pretty ordinary, particularly after half time, and I stand by that. I thought on a hot day, the longer the game went the more our inability to spread from stoppages and contests became noticeable and detrimental to our performance. Particularly given those conditions should have suited us.

After the game Fages lamented our willingness to take the game on with bold disposal, but you can't make bold decisions with the ball if there's nobody to give it to in those "bold" positions.

So given Collingwood only won the game by 4 points, perhaps they weren't that great either

Having said that, Fages' press conference after the 2023 Grand Final was outstanding... Unlike the game itself I'd say that is something worth rewatching.

Our guys looked half wrecked on Brownlow night. I don't think the heat helped us . We were a bit sluggish and tired.

Just a convulsion of reasons to explain the one that got away.

Bobby Hill had the man upstairs gifting him his golden day.

 

[p4p1]

While it sucked to lose 23, the silver lining was one more year of the Joe Show. I think the trade off was worth it, even if I do hate Collingwood.

ETA: We don’t go B2B last year without Joe so still the same amount of premierships.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Our guys looked half wrecked on Brownlow night. I don't think the heat helped us . We were a bit sluggish and tired.

I haven't watched the Brownlow for years, so hard for me to comment one way or the other. What a contrast though between what you say and the way we looked so fresh and up for it on Grand Final day in 2024, after running over the top of two opponents on the road, one of whom had themselves been freshened up by a week off... After struggling late in games all season...

If nothing else it's an interesting discussion and I wonder if, in a few years, once the core of our players and staff move on, something a bit deeper might get uncovered about our preparation from one year to the next

 

[Tom14]

While it sucked to lose 23, the silver lining was one more year of the Joe Show. I think the trade off was worth it, even if I do hate Collingwood.

ETA: We don’t go B2B last year without Joe so still the same amount of premierships.

I have had this thought but also Joe going out after winning the norm and flag in 2023 would have been pretty special.

 

[Tom14]

now the thing is dlanod... i look at brandon starcevich. what is his brand? hes stuck in no mans land on bobby hill.... where was his HP Pavilion 16' with Intel™ Ultra Core 7? Craig Macrae brained Chris Fagan in the coaches box. Its time to pursue Chris Scott.

Not to self-quote, but…

Heard from someone the other week that Kingy has a clause in his contract ensuring he gets the laptop on tv every week lol.

 

[dlanod]

Not to self-quote, but…

My take away is now that we lost because Starcevich didn't have King out there on Zoom with him.

 

[knaf]

Our guys looked half wrecked on Brownlow night. I don't think the heat helped us . We were a bit sluggish and tired.

Just a convulsion of reasons to explain the one that got away.

Bobby Hill had the man upstairs gifting him his golden day.

Yes we seemed to play the game before we got out on the ground. Looked exhausted.

Great learning that meant Fages knew how to prepare for the next grand final. We were cherryripe from the first minute.