Have we learnt anything from Geelong?

[nut]

??? They wanted Bomber sacked... the players overhauled....etc...

Sound familiar.

The last 4 weeks of last year was good, a small improvement on that will see us VERY competitive in every game we play.

 

[Madtiger2006]

 

[Brooksy88]

i hate 2 be negative but Geelong wanted all that because they rebuilt, made the top four with a young, up and coming team and then won the NAB cup and looked set for a big one then underachieved massively by not even making the eight. richmonds situation is that we have not been a consistantly decent team for a long time (2 finals appearances in how long?) and everyone is getting frustrated.

in other words they were frustrated because they didnt take the next step and win a flag.
we are frustrated because we wont take the first step and show something.


i do see us taking that first step this year though and starting to be more competitive.

 

[krustyman]

pressure on the coach is essential for success.

 

[deliberate!!]

??? They wanted Bomber sacked... the players overhauled....etc...

Sound familiar.

The last 4 weeks of last year was good, a small improvement on that will see us VERY competitive in every game we play.

No...
Geelong weren't getting smashed to the extent we were/are with entire team capitulation. Geelong had spot-fire problems that need solving.
Geelong also had a home ground advantage that normally in good times they can bank on as certain wins......it was just a matter of time.

The Geelong faithful were more reactive in a shorter period than us.
The state of Geelong unhappiness at the time had developed after the last period of relative finals success (the Gary Ablett Snr years) and before the 2007 flag.
A lot of Geelong supporters were happy during the Ablett Snr years as they thought they were always a 'sniff' at the flag.
(A 'sniff' at the flag for a Richmond supporter since 1980 is starting the season!)
That's a lot shorter than our 27 years of playing an awful style of football with little hope.

Geelong's time would have come under Thompson once his small problems were ironed out.

We on the other hand......don't have the players that consistently perform as a team, or are up to AFL Senior Football standard.....so Wallace staying or going is irrelevant.

Geelong just prior to their flag was a rough diamond.
Richmond now is a piece of coal. And Wallace is not a miner of men.

Our problems are deeper and ingrained, the Geelong experience has no similarity to ours.

 

[Richo Man]

As long as Titch Edwards performs I'm happy!

 

[nut]

No...
Geelong weren't getting smashed to the extent we were/are with entire team capitulation. Geelong had spot-fire problems that need solving.
Geelong also had a home ground advantage that normally in good times they can bank on as certain wins......it was just a matter of time.

The Geelong faithful were more reactive in a shorter period than us.
The state of Geelong unhappiness at the time had developed after the last period of relative finals success (the Gary Ablett Snr years) and before the 2007 flag.
A lot of Geelong supporters were happy during the Ablett Snr years as they thought they were always a 'sniff' at the flag.
(A 'sniff' at the flag for a Richmond supporter since 1980 is starting the season!)
That's a lot shorter than our 27 years of playing an awful style of football with little hope.

Geelong's time would have come under Thompson once his small problems were ironed out.

We on the other hand......don't have the players that consistently perform as a team, or are up to AFL Senior Football standard.....so Wallace staying or going is irrelevant.

Geelong just prior to their flag was a rough diamond.
Richmond now is a piece of coal. And Wallace is not a miner of men.

Our problems are deeper and ingrained, the Geelong experience has no similarity to ours.

Our list has been overhauled from the ground up.

So was Geelongs.

Our kids on our list are taking time to develop.

So did Geelongs.

Geelong's rebuliding started way back when we appointed Frawley and they took on Bomber. His Coaching position has been questioned as much as anyones, you seem to HAVE a very short memory. It takes time to develop a Premiership side, and it took Geelong 8 years, and all but one of those years Bomber has been on the chopping block.

TW is 3 season into a 5 year contract, the first 2 seasons showed some promise and as mentioned by lots of people we where probably playing above ourselves and last season was an abortion but injuries to key players don't help, see st kilda.

The club has made some extremely tough decisions re- the list, and we have all been very patient, it would be nice to see some improvements this season but in the grand plan this season is another season to get games under the belts of the players that will win us the next flag.

Getting rid of the coaching panel would see us go backwards when we are in a perfect position to go forwards.

 

[deliberate!!]

Our list has been overhauled from the ground up.

So was Geelongs.

Our kids on our list are taking time to develop.

So did Geelongs.

Nut...you're clutching at straws....dreaming.....you so desperately want us to be like Geelong you'll try to find any similarities.
The only similarities between us and Geelong is that both teams are in the AFL, both have mascots from the cat family and Brad Ottens has played for both sides.......there it ends.

See your first point....
Yes our side has been overhauled from the ground up, like Geelong's.....but Geelong overhauled and replaced stagnant players with hard running players who run through the lines and hit their targets.
They picked players with inherent footballing skills.

We picked and still pick players with flaws who Richmond foolishly think they can teach skills to.
You can't teach skills......a kid walks through the doors already with his inherent footballing skills....whether it's thinking in traffic, fast hands or deadly accurate foot passing ability. You can fine tune kids abilities and skill that are already in them, but we think we can teach them everything when they walk in the door. So we accept any player as 'project' players. We can't succeed doing that. (Look at the difference between Buddy Franklin and Bling......Buddy showed he was ready to go, Hawthorn saw that, Richmond wants and wishes Bling becomes a great player......fact Vs hope)

So Geelong is completely different from Richmond where they made and still make good value calls on players.
We speculate as a club and the RFC thinks like you....."Oh, I think we can teach him this and that, because we believe we can"
Wish, wish, wish......just like you wishing we were like Geelong.

Sorry Nut....we're still light years apart as clubs.

 

[mad_doggy911]

Agreed. Picks 1,2 and 18 please.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

"Have we learnt anything from Geelong?"
Yes. I believe we've had at least three football lessons from them in the last twelve months. The last one was just this Friday...and the lesson learned was the same as the previous two...they are good ..we are shit...

 

[_RT_]

There is one difference between Richmond and Geelong that to me really stands out and that is when the Cats were rebuilding you could see in their kids players that were going to lead them after the older players had moved on.

Tell me when players like Richo, Brown, Bowden, Johnson, Simmonds all head off into retirement who are the players we can look to with confidence to say they will lead the way. Deledio, Newman, Foley, Thursfield are about the only 4 I would name with any real confidence at this point in time, the rest of them have big fat ? next to their names and unless we see some big steps being taken in the season ahead it looks like it may well be another few years before we even start to look like a side that climbs out of the bottom of the ladder.

 

[nut]

Nut...you're clutching at straws....dreaming.....you so desperately want us to be like Geelong you'll try to find any similarities.
The only similarities between us and Geelong is that both teams are in the AFL, both have mascots from the cat family and Brad Ottens has played for both sides.......there it ends.

See your first point....
Yes our side has been overhauled from the ground up, like Geelong's.....but Geelong overhauled and replaced stagnant players with hard running players who run through the lines and hit their targets.
They picked players with inherent footballing skills.

We picked and still pick players with flaws who Richmond foolishly think they can teach skills to.
You can't teach skills......a kid walks through the doors already with his inherent footballing skills....whether it's thinking in traffic, fast hands or deadly accurate foot passing ability. You can fine tune kids abilities and skill that are already in them, but we think we can teach them everything when they walk in the door. So we accept any player as 'project' players. We can't succeed doing that. (Look at the difference between Buddy Franklin and Bling......Buddy showed he was ready to go, Hawthorn saw that, Richmond wants and wishes Bling becomes a great player......fact Vs hope)

So Geelong is completely different from Richmond where they made and still make good value calls on players.
We speculate as a club and the RFC thinks like you....."Oh, I think we can teach him this and that, because we believe we can"
Wish, wish, wish......just like you wishing we were like Geelong.

Sorry Nut....we're still light years apart as clubs.

These are all threads started In a premiership year.


http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391481&highlight=sack+bomber

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321811&highlight=sack+bomber

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321881&highlight=sack+bomber

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322533&highlight=sack+bomber

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322533&highlight=sack+bomber

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322533&highlight=sack+bomber

This thread was started at the begining of Bombers 4th season

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75994&highlight=sack+bomber

The simlaraties are simple..... we want to SACK a coach in the middle of rebuilding as did the Geelong supporters, if you cant see that then your are the one who is dreaming.

 

[nut]

There is one difference between Richmond and Geelong that to me really stands out and that is when the Cats were rebuilding you could see in their kids players that were going to lead them after the older players had moved on.

Tell me when players like Richo, Brown, Bowden, Johnson, Simmonds all head off into retirement who are the players we can look to with confidence to say they will lead the way. Deledio, Newman, Foley, Thursfield are about the only 4 I would name with any real confidence at this point in time, the rest of them have big fat ? next to their names and unless we see some big steps being taken in the season ahead it looks like it may well be another few years before we even start to look like a side that climbs out of the bottom of the ladder.

I'm sorry but besides Richo, the other players haven't exactly excelled us into anything of greatness.

WE have some exciting young players. Some you didn't mention, Connors, Edwards, Mcguane, King, Hughes, Tambling, Pattison, Casserly, Jackson, Morton, Polak and Polo who ALL look like future leaders at the club.

I just cant understand where the negativity comes from? Each of the players above are a year old and you can expect small to large improvements from them all.

Add to that Cotchin, Rance and some promising Rookies and we have a bright future.

Wallace's Coaching ability should only be judged on how he can develope these players, and yes some haven;t come on as quick as some, but this why I think we should look back at Geelongs climb to the top. NOT ALL PLAYERS DEVELOPE AT THE SAME RATE...... IT TOOK 8 YEARS FOR THE JIG SAW PUZZLE TO FINISH.

BE PATIENT we are on the right track.

 

[deliberate!!]

Hey Nut....
There's a local kids soccer club somewhere where the parents want their bad coach sacked....
And after Manchester United just got bundled out of the F.A Cup overnight, I bet there are Man U supporters who want their coach Sir Alex Ferguson sacked.

Same clubs eh? Pull the other one!! But I'd bet, you'd try to find a similarity.

Just because one club wants their coach sacked and they eventually win a flag, doesn't mean it could be a successful process for everyone.....even Richmond knows that!
Otherwise Jeff Geishen or Frawley would still be coaching us.
You'd like that wouldn't you...

Sorry, I didn't read all you inserted links.....but I fell asleep with your flawed argument before that.

Apologies

 

[deliberate!!]

I'm sorry but besides Richo, the other players haven't exactly excelled us into anything of greatness.

WE have some exciting young players. Some you didn't mention, Connors, Edwards, Mcguane, King, Hughes, Tambling, Pattison, Casserly, Jackson, Morton, Polak and Polo who ALL look like future leaders at the club.

I just cant understand where the negativity comes from? Each of the players above are a year old and you can expect small to large improvements from them all.

Add to that Cotchin, Rance and some promising Rookies and we have a bright future.

Wallace's Coaching ability should only be judged on how he can develope these players, and yes some haven;t come on as quick as some, but this why I think we should look back at Geelongs climb to the top. NOT ALL PLAYERS DEVELOPE AT THE SAME RATE...... IT TOOK 8 YEARS FOR THE JIG SAW PUZZLE TO FINISH.

BE PATIENT we are on the right track.

!! 27 YEARS - THE PAST....&.....WOODEN SPOON - 2007 !!

So I've explained the FACTS for my Negativity.
How about YOU giving me YOUR FACTS for your POSITIVITY.

No feelings, unproven self belief or crystal ball BS.....give me MATCH WINNING FACTS!!
Or shut up......... zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Go join a fruitcake religious cult Nut......This is a Football Club measured on performance.

 

[nut]

Hey Nut....
There's a local kids soccer club somewhere where the parents want their bad coach sacked....
And after Manchester United just got bundled out of the F.A Cup overnight, I bet there are Man U supporters who want their coach Sir Alex Ferguson sacked.

Same clubs eh? Pull the other one!! But I'd bet, you'd try to find a similarity.

Just because one club wants their coach sacked and they eventually win a flag, doesn't mean it could be a successful process for everyone.....even Richmond knows that!
Otherwise Jeff Geishen or Frawley would still be coaching us.
You'd like that wouldn't you...

Sorry, I didn't read all you inserted links.....but I fell asleep with your flawed argument before that.

Apologies

1th of May in a premiership year Geelong Supporters Wanted Bomber sacked??? do they want him sacked now???? How is my argument flawed? If we start winning will you credit the players or the coach?

I'm sure we would be in the same position now if Frawley was still coach, except we would still have players like Sziller, Fleming etc... running around and we still would be paying %100 of the salary cap, meaning we cant recruit rookies or participate in the pre-season draft.

If you cant see that this club, led by Wallace and Miller, has taken gigantic steps in the last three seasons, then you may as well follow those soccer clubs you mentioned.

I'll sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Bojangles17]

No...
Geelong weren't getting smashed to the extent we were/are with entire team capitulation. Geelong had spot-fire problems that need solving.
Geelong also had a home ground advantage that normally in good times they can bank on as certain wins......it was just a matter of time.

The Geelong faithful were more reactive in a shorter period than us.
The state of Geelong unhappiness at the time had developed after the last period of relative finals success (the Gary Ablett Snr years) and before the 2007 flag.
A lot of Geelong supporters were happy during the Ablett Snr years as they thought they were always a 'sniff' at the flag.
(A 'sniff' at the flag for a Richmond supporter since 1980 is starting the season!)
That's a lot shorter than our 27 years of playing an awful style of football with little hope.

Geelong's time would have come under Thompson once his small problems were ironed out.

We on the other hand......don't have the players that consistently perform as a team, or are up to AFL Senior Football standard.....so Wallace staying or going is irrelevant.

Geelong just prior to their flag was a rough diamond.
Richmond now is a piece of coal. And Wallace is not a miner of men.

Our problems are deeper and ingrained, the Geelong experience has no similarity to ours.

you could fabricate a story on any angle , fact is it took them 8 years under thompson to salute, Let me say that again 8 $%%# years

 

[nut]

!! 27 YEARS - THE PAST....&.....WOODEN SPOON - 2007 !!

So I've explained the FACTS for my Negativity.
How about YOU giving me YOUR FACTS for your POSITIVITY.

No feelings, unproven self belief or crystal ball BS.....give me MATCH WINNING FACTS!!
Or shut up......... zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Go join a fruitcake religious cult Nut......This is a Football Club measured on performance.

OK watch Round 1. There you have it. my winning facts.

Could you explain to me how you would have rebuilt the club differently since wallace took over? Which players you would have kept, the ones you would have recruited etc....

 

[nut]

you could fabricate a story on any angle , fact is it took them 8 years under thompson to salute, Let me say that again 8 $%%# years

Geelong's time would have come under Thompson once his small problems were ironed out.

........ My Ironing takes time but it doesn't take 8 #$%KING years.

 

[_RT_]

I'm sorry but besides Richo, the other players haven't exactly excelled us into anything of greatness.

WE have some exciting young players. Some you didn't mention, Connors, Edwards, Mcguane, King, Hughes, Tambling, Pattison, Casserly, Jackson, Morton, Polak and Polo who ALL look like future leaders at the club.

I just cant understand where the negativity comes from? Each of the players above are a year old and you can expect small to large improvements from them all.

Add to that Cotchin, Rance and some promising Rookies and we have a bright future.

Wallace's Coaching ability should only be judged on how he can develope these players, and yes some haven;t come on as quick as some, but this why I think we should look back at Geelongs climb to the top. NOT ALL PLAYERS DEVELOPE AT THE SAME RATE...... IT TOOK 8 YEARS FOR THE JIG SAW PUZZLE TO FINISH.

BE PATIENT we are on the right track.

Regarding all the players in bold please list the things they have done that gives you this confidence, but let me take a stab at a couple:
Connors - stood up to Hall in his debut game big freaking deal instead of being known for that I would prefer he was known as a kid who was getting 20 odd touches a game while shutting down an opponent.
Jackson - been on the list for 4 years averaged 9 games per season and got hyped up last year because he played one decent game on Black.
Tambling - kicked 4 goals in a quarter against the Eagles meanwhile his opponent had 30 odd touches for the game. Every now and then shows a glimpse of the promise he has but fails to put in consistent performances.
King - fiesty little character who had a good 07 season, kind of like Raines who had a great 06 only to end up going backwards at a rate of knots last year. Here's hoping the same fate does not befall King.
Casserly - yet to play a H&A game for the club after spending more time in the medical room than on the park.
Polo - had a great debut game and then seemingly believed he was better than he was and has done very little since.
Polak - had a decent first up season at a new club but thus far in the preseason has failed to fire a shot after being spoken about in glowing terms over the preseason.
Edwards - had a decent debut season and is suddenly looked upon as another one of these talented kids that will lead us to the top, let the kid put a few seasons together before we lump him in with the others.

As for Cotchin, Rance, Putt, Collard, Gourdis & Morton none of them have played a H&A game for the club so how the hell can you say they are players you have confidence to lead the club in the future.

Sure all the players mentioned have potential to be good footballers but until they take hold of this club and start to lead the way then none of them deserve, IMO, to be rated and future leaders of this club.

BTW you say we are on the right track, give me some facts to back up this opinion not some blind faith approach because Wallace has got rid of players who weren't up to scratch. It doesn't have to be a lot just has to be something, anything that shows we are on the right path, because after seeing the efforts we put in this preseason it seems bugger all has changed since the end of the 07 season, we still make the same basic mistakes that we were making last year, we still piss fart around like we were last year and are going to rely on the same old players that we were last year.

 

[nut]

Regarding all the players in bold please list the things they have done that gives you this confidence, but let me take a stab at a couple:
Connors - stood up to Hall in his debut game big freaking deal instead of being known for that I would prefer he was known as a kid who was getting 20 odd touches a game while shutting down an opponent.
Jackson - been on the list for 4 years averaged 9 games per season and got hyped up last year because he played one decent game on Black.
Tambling - kicked 4 goals in a quarter against the Eagles meanwhile his opponent had 30 odd touches for the game. Every now and then shows a glimpse of the promise he has but fails to put in consistent performances.
King - fiesty little character who had a good 07 season, kind of like Raines who had a great 06 only to end up going backwards at a rate of knots last year. Here's hoping the same fate does not befall King.
Casserly - yet to play a H&A game for the club after spending more time in the medical room than on the park.
Polo - had a great debut game and then seemingly believed he was better than he was and has done very little since.
Polak - had a decent first up season at a new club but thus far in the preseason has failed to fire a shot after being spoken about in glowing terms over the preseason.
Edwards - had a decent debut season and is suddenly looked upon as another one of these talented kids that will lead us to the top, let the kid put a few seasons together before we lump him in with the others.

As for Cotchin, Rance, Putt, Collard, Gourdis & Morton none of them have played a H&A game for the club so how the hell can you say they are players you have confidence to lead the club in the future.

Sure all the players mentioned have potential to be good footballers but until they take hold of this club and start to lead the way then none of them deserve, IMO, to be rated and future leaders of this club.

BTW you say we are on the right track, give me some facts to back up this opinion not some blind faith approach because Wallace has got rid of players who weren't up to scratch. It doesn't have to be a lot just has to be something, anything that shows we are on the right path, because after seeing the efforts we put in this preseason it seems bugger all has changed since the end of the 07 season, we still make the same basic mistakes that we were making last year, we still piss fart around like we were last year and are going to rely on the same old players that we were last year.

We are on the right track as opposed to the top up track we were on with Frawley.

Where on this track is what is confusing people. Just like it confused the Geelong supporters for the majority of Bombers reign.

We have a great young list. That is all we have at the moment. Some of the players mentioned above will become great, some will not. Some will be delisted and some will be joined by more quality young players as we REBUILD. IT TAKES TIME. 8 Years in the example of Geelong.

A player like Selwood would not have had the season he had playing for a bottom side like us. He would have been smashed like Tambling is now.


The good news is that wether or not Wallace will lead us to the next flag we have the foundations in place to go forward, with or with out him.

As mentioned in another thread we have 12 players that have played more than 50 games. In the next 2 seasons that should double.

 

[deliberate!!]

We are on the right track as opposed to the top up track we were on with Frawley.

Where on this track is what is confusing people. Just like it confused the Geelong supporters for the majority of Bombers reign.

We have a great young list. That is all we have at the moment. Some of the players mentioned above will become great, some will not. Some will be delisted and some will be joined by more quality young players as we REBUILD. IT TAKES TIME. 8 Years in the example of Geelong.

A player like Selwood would not have had the season he had playing for a bottom side like us. He would have been smashed like Tambling is now.


The good news is that wether or not Wallace will lead us to the next flag we have the foundations in place to go forward, with or with out him.

As mentioned in another thread we have 12 players that have played more than 50 games. In the next 2 seasons that should double.

You have no FACTUAL proof of that statement......you're talking out your clacker Reverend Nut.
You're a snake oil salesman.

 

[deliberate!!]

OK watch Round 1. There you have it. my winning facts.

Could you explain to me how you would have rebuilt the club differently since wallace took over? Which players you would have kept, the ones you would have recruited etc....

Yeh Nut....one win makes a successful period. 1 in a row.....wow....we'll be on a roll !!

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

The huge difference between us and most other sides is, that other sides developing youngsters are playing full games in the maggo's, or ones, and they are using there older players to fill that 50% on the ground back-up game time role. Instead we use our younger players in that role and they take twice as long to develop.
I for one are sick of seeing young talent after young talent be screwed around by our system.
Let's not forget Geelong probably had one of the biggest, most developed and talented draftees for a long time, in Hawkins, and he never spent more than a couple of weeks in the ones, as they could not afford to give him enough game time to develop him, terrific move.
Also Geelong, have been developing these youngsters in a magoo's side who have continually had very good success.

 

[_RT_]

We are on the right track as opposed to the top up track we were on with Frawley.

Where on this track is what is confusing people. Just like it confused the Geelong supporters for the majority of Bombers reign.

We have a great young list. That is all we have at the moment. Some of the players mentioned above will become great, some will not. Some will be delisted and some will be joined by more quality young players as we REBUILD. IT TAKES TIME. 8 Years in the example of Geelong.

A player like Selwood would not have had the season he had playing for a bottom side like us. He would have been smashed like Tambling is now.


The good news is that wether or not Wallace will lead us to the next flag we have the foundations in place to go forward, with or with out him.

As mentioned in another thread we have 12 players that have played more than 50 games. In the next 2 seasons that should double.

So what you're saying is you're sticking with the blind faith approach until the end. If thats the way you want to go then so be it.

I'm not here to change anyones mind, just asking for people to explain why they take such a view, and all I get in reply is Wallace turned over the list and brought in players to replace players. The fact of the matter is that right now Wallace has brought in something like 30 players between 2004 and now and at the moment I can count on 1 hand those that have shown any sort of improvement from when they arrived, these being, Deledio, Foley, Thursfield and Pattison. Again the rest still have big ? next to their names and unless I see some drastic improvements in the next 6 months my poinion wont be changing, doesn't mean I wont be there each week supporting them though.