Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Sausages]

Yeah but I think it’s more of a reading comprehension issue on your part than anything else.

Then it's fortunate we have an open-minded and neuro-diverse tolerant forum, isn't it?

 

[Section 5]

And it continues
All about Clarkson so at least no mention of Fagan

*Told Mitchell to hand in his mobile phone - along with the rest of the team - on the eve of an interstate game against Sydney during a period in which one of his twin babies was being frequently admitted to hospital.

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour

The details surround Alastair Clarkson’s treatment of Sam Mitchell during the 2011 season, the year the player’s wife Lyndall gave birth to twin girls and the family was beset by a number of confronting health problems.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Berrygood]

I'm with jonnobackpocket here. I also don't see why this has to be seen thru the racial spectrum. I guess it's because it was a race based review to start with. A review of the whole playing group and not just the indigenous players I'm sure would have revealed the same hard line applied to all players. If that's the case it's not a racial thing but a failure of man management techniques and procedures.

Sometimes in clubland you have to protect players from themselves, from distracting mates, from interfering family, from self destructing behaviour. Regardless of colour.

I personally don't think there's a racist bone in Fages body. There's been absolutely no hint of that in his time here. Quite the opposite really. His support and development of Kiddy Coleman, the obvious mutual affection shown too and by Charlie Cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

30

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

and the other indigenous players. Early in his stint here the support given to Bundy and his problems. I really hope the great indigenous boys we have here at the club believe their own eyes and experiences here and are not influenced by as yet untested allegations from 8-12 years ago.

To me, it's an unbalanced review if all players weren't interviewed to assess commonality with these issues. If that had happened a much clearer indication whether its racial or poor management techniques that are at question here.

This whole thing has been handled poorly. The unbalanced review to not include all players as a control, to not allow those accused to have a right of reply before the review was finalised, to leak details to the ABC that again only reported half the story, the rest of the media's presumption of guilt.

 

[lioninthesand]

I might not have a full understanding but why is it being stamped as racism? Did whatever happen, happen because the players were indigenous ? or because of the situation they found themselves in? Was a hard line (I understand this maybe an understatement if some of the allegations are true) taken with non indigenous players as well? Obviously exactly what happened will help answer the question…….

I haven’t really heard it be described directly as ‘racist acts’ like calling names etc.

I think the accusations more relate the welfare issues.

The accusers claim to have been subjected to similar instances of control, manipulation, bullying and intimidation that other players claim they didn’t, the accusers are all indigenous.

Secondly, the accusers all came from remote communities and didn’t have the same ability and life experience to protect them selves, with a strong existing network around them.

It would have been a lot easier to subject isolated indigenous families, to what has been accused, than say - a white player with a strong family network around them and people to turn to.

It is viewed where their welfare should have been paramount it was taken advantage of, their independence was not valued as much as others.

That is why, the accusations are being made on racial lines, the more serious accusations are claimed to only happened to indigenous players and given they were isolated and disempowered, it is claimed they took advantage of their difficult position.

I am genuinely just answering your question as to why some are drawing this along racial lines not trying to argue or be combative, so please don’t feel the need to go at me in response.

I also used claimed, allegations etc - I am not arguing that it is true or Fages is responsible.

 

[Kwality]

Luke Hodge has just put out a statement

Hodgey using his family as an example of how he values Fages opinion is very powerful - so powerful that virtue seeking commentators like Stan Grant will find it difficult to ignore.
Bloody hell, Hodgey is as up front as a leader off field as he was on.

 

[Kwality]

The initial stories, and so far the worst accounts, are from the indigenous review and reports.

It's entirely possible that it was just a controlling and potentially abusive environment across the board, but so far the statements have been denying everything rather than saying "we did it to everyone". The examples for non-indigenous players at Hawthorn are controlling, but a lot more restrained by comparison.

2012 on your club website:

Bateman calls time

Midfielder Chance Bateman will retire at the conclusion of the Hawks' 2012 season...

www.hawthornfc.com.au

The first indigenous player to get to 100 games is very relevant to club culture.

Is 2012 in the timeframe? Were the players (unnamed) on the list then.

 

[Mighty Lions]

And it continues
All about Clarkson so at least no mention of Fagan

*Told Mitchell to hand in his mobile phone - along with the rest of the team - on the eve of an interstate game against Sydney during a period in which one of his twin babies was being frequently admitted to hospital.

Fresh allegations emerge of Alastair Clarkson’s controlling behaviour

The details surround Alastair Clarkson’s treatment of Sam Mitchell during the 2011 season, the year the player’s wife Lyndall gave birth to twin girls and the family was beset by a number of confronting health problems.

www.theage.com.au

Are we lucky Mitchell isn't indigenous or is this allegation just as serious as the others? Interested to hear other BF posters opinions.

I guess Sam at least put his name to it rather that stay under the cloak of anonymity.

 

[dlanod]

2012 on your club website

Gee, I know there's the West Coast and drugs jokes but... wtf?

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Spot on, not many mentioning this in threads on Big Footy, some even use it as a subtle cudgel against the coaches, Fagan and Clarkson would be mad not to Lawyer up considering the severity of the allegations... it is career ending stuff as well as reputation destroying.

I agree. I believe some have a hidden agenda or personal points make. It's the only conclusion I can come to, when some are passing judgement on this terrible situation without ALL the facts.

I feel for the people who have made the accusations, in that I hope they have been accurately quoted in these media release, as being misrepresented can tarnish reputations and any further statements they make.

I also feel for the people that have been named in the accusations as they have not had the opportunity to tell their story in public domain.

As I have mentioned before the only way for both parties to get a fair and impartial hearing is in the courts.

AFL has too much invested to allow anything to come out that would be detrimental to it's brand and by the same token it should be removed from the public domain (media) by way of gag orders and suppression orders as the media have a lot invested in this story.

 

[M Malice]

With the revelations about Sam Mitchell and his relationship with Clarkson having a light shone on it now.... IMO it is reasonable to assume that whatever happened in incidents revealed in the Hawthorn review while concerning they were not racially motivated ie. racism.

Seems like controlling behaviour and misguided but coming from a place of wanting to be in the best space to win footy games and wanting the best playing wise for the players concerned, maybe culturally insensitive but not racism. This sort of domineering persona from coaches would have been very typical in footy clubs all over the world at the time, it is only recently that the father figure/empathetic coach has been widely viewed as the best way to go now and into the future.

I am starting to see a way out of this where Clarkson and Fagan will be able to continue with their coaching.

 

[Kwality]

Gee, I know there's the West Coast and drugs jokes but... wtf?

Best I can offer is oops ... the link is worth a read if defending Fages good name is of interest.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I haven’t really heard it be described directly as ‘racist acts’ like calling names etc.

I think the accusations more relate the welfare issues.

The accusers claim to have been subjected to similar instances of control, manipulation, bullying and intimidation that other players claim they didn’t, the accusers are all indigenous.

Secondly, the accusers all came from remote communities and didn’t have the same ability and life experience to protect them selves, with a strong existing network around them.

It would have been a lot easier to subject isolated indigenous families, to what has been accused, than say - a white player with a strong family network around them and people to turn to.

It is viewed where their welfare should have been paramount it was taken advantage of, their independence was not valued as much as others.

That is why, the accusations are being made on racial lines, the more serious accusations are claimed to only happened to indigenous players and given they were isolated and disempowered, it is claimed they took advantage of their difficult position.

I am genuinely just answering your question as to why some are drawing this along racial lines not trying to argue or be combative, so please don’t feel the need to go at me in response.

I also used claimed, allegations etc - I am not arguing that it is true or Fages is responsible.

Are you assuming all white players have a strong family network around them? In my time in the system back in the late 70's/early 80's there were some pretty sad stories of white players lives who were in a world of pain.... not sure what the balance was compared to indigenous issues were. I guess what I am saying is that regardless of any color, creed, sexual preference or gender, none of us are exempt from hard times. Even white peoples culture plays a role in that.

 

[M Malice]

Are you assuming all white players have a strong family network around them? In my time in the system back in the late 70's/early 80's there were some pretty sad stories of white players lives who were in a world of pain.... not sure what the balance was compared to indigenous issues were. I guess what I am saying is that regardless of any color, creed, sexual preference or gender, none of us are exempt from hard times. Even white peoples culture plays a role in that.

As a white person myself I always find it hard to define what modern Caucasian culture is.

Maybe?- celebrity worship, fame whoring, alcohol, gluttony, consumerism.

Personally the things that matter to me are family and being proud of the way you treat others and lead your life.. is that culture?

 

[dlanod]

As a white person myself I always find it hard to define what modern Caucasian culture is.

Maybe?- celebrity worship, fame whoring, alcohol, gluttony, consumerism.

Personally the things that matter to me are family and being proud of the way you treat others and lead your life.. is that culture?

I thought it was burn outs and VB???

 

[M Malice]

I thought it was burn outs and VB???

I did mention VB(alcohol) in my post and burn outs is a given along with meat pies and Holden cars.

 

[Kwality]

I thought it was burn outs and VB???

I'm old: wine, women & song.

 

[lioninthesand]

Are you assuming all white players have a strong family network around them? In my time in the system back in the late 70's/early 80's there were some pretty sad stories of white players lives who were in a world of pain.... not sure what the balance was compared to indigenous issues were. I guess what I am saying is that regardless of any color, creed, sexual preference or gender, none of us are exempt from hard times. Even white peoples culture plays a role in that.

No, I do not assume all white players have a strong family network around them.

Yep, all people fall on hard times and in that situation, whether it’s desperation, isolation, poverty, mental illness etc - the way those in positions of power interact with those in vulnerable positions, becomes especially important.

Welfare becomes paramount, especially in big organisations.

Feels like the defence is becoming (not from you, just generally) ‘they probably treated everyone like shit’.. which I don’t know is going to be especially helpful.

 

[Mighty Lions]

As a white person myself I always find it hard to define what modern Caucasian culture is.

Maybe?- celebrity worship, fame whoring, alcohol, gluttony, consumerism.

Personally the things that matter to me are family and being proud of the way you treat others and lead your life.. is that culture?

I think that description is a big part of a certain person's culture. Family values, understanding, acceptance of others are all traits of the culture you do or don't grow up in. Many more traits not mentioned but we all probably have unique cultures to a certain degree depending on who brought us up, where & how we lived, what principles were instilled in us from a young age.

 

[M Malice]

Feels like the defence is becoming (not from you, just generally) ‘they probably treated everyone like s**t’.. which I don’t know is going to be especially helpful.

IMO that makes a huge difference, takes out the racism accusation, makes it misguided domineering behaviour, not anywhere near the same level of abhorrence as blatant racism.

 

[BRAB]

“They abused all players equally” is not the emphatic defence some seem to think it is tbh.

 

[Nathan Barley]

“They abused all players equally” is not the emphatic defence some seem to think it is tbh.

Fagan can probably come out clean though given he hasn't done that at the Lions

 

[M Malice]

“They abused all players equally” is not the emphatic defence some seem to think it is tbh.

Not a knockout blow defence but it takes out the racism factor, you not agree that that is significant? Historical bullying nowhere near as bad as historical racism IMO.

Would you ban Fagan and Clarkson from coaching for life if there was no racism involved in the alleged behaviour?

 

[BRAB]

Not a knockout blow defence but it takes out the racism factor, you not agree that that is significant? Historical bullying nowhere near as bad as historical racism IMO.

Would you ban Fagan and Clarkson from coaching for life if there was no racism involved in the alleged behaviour?

I think if they told young players to abort their children in a non racist manner they’d still not be allowed to coach.

 

[lioninthesand]

IMO that makes a huge difference, takes out the racism accusation, makes it misguided domineering behaviour, not anywhere near the same level of abhorrence as blatant racism.

Telling Hodgey he can’t go to Colac on weekends because he eats to many pies when he goes back there, might be completely different to telling an indigenous player they can’t associate with their family or go home when they want to.

Their social position, welfare requirements, position in the club, available network, cultural needs and expectations, might be totally different - so the exact scenarios applied to 2 different players can still posses ethical differences.

The way minorities are treated requires additional levels of cultural awareness especially in an environment like an AFL footy club.

It’s a nothing point anyway because I doubt any white players will come out with anything even remotely close to what the accusers have claimed to experience.

Because some white players have similar stories does not ‘cancel out the racism factor’.

FWIW - I don’t think it was ever ‘Blatant racism’ - I’m not sure it’s ever been discribed as that.

The accusations are several indigenous families suffered bullying, manipulation, control, were isolated etc - what happened to white players is border line inconsequential.

I think we all know Clarko put players through shit at different times.

 

[Mighty Lions]

“They abused all players equally” is not the emphatic defence some seem to think it is tbh.

WOW......Who is saying that??? Who is "some"? Please elaborate.

I dont get your need to come out & post that.......is this what you think and you thought you might get them out and say they are from "some"?