NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Elixuh]

I think from a process POV Hawthorn probably needed a clearer process articulated before they started the investigation should they start to uncover stuff beyond the scope of the investigation.

Beyond that, i find it hard to really blame them for what they did.

Yeah I don’t think anyone is saying organisations shouldn’t try to understand the experiences of First Nations players and staff, but the process Hawthorn undertook was terrible. Hard to think how they could have done it more poorly for such a large organisation which is apart of an even larger organisation. Especially in the context of Indigenous Australians having such a big and important role in the game and all the work that has been done to progress inclusiveness, culturally safe environments, recognition etc. It beggars belief.

 

[JackOutback]

You are so far off it's actually funny

The teachers union is one of the most left wing organisations in Australia!

According to you all those teachers that matched in the BLM protests, Free Palestine marches, etc, etc are all closet racists?

I don't think I can think off another professional organisation in Australia who are more politically aligned with the left (maybe the civil service in Canberra).

You strike me as someone who looks for racism where none exists as is the case with this whole sorry saga.

Are the left wing teachers in the room with you right now?

 

[perplexed]

I think from a process POV Hawthorn probably needed a clearer process articulated before they started the investigation should they start to uncover stuff beyond the scope of the investigation.

Beyond that, i find it hard to really blame them for what they did.

What did they do to clean up their mess?

They passed it off to others, making it someone else's problem then sat on their hands. Have they even apologised to everyone yet for the damage they have caused?

 

[sr36]

It's a given that lots of advice would have been offered to players of all backgrounds over the years... so is there a possibility that the way the situation/s were handled would have been handled in the exact same way if said player/s were not Indigenous?

And could that mean they did not come from a racist mindset but just poorly thought out/worded actions?

Racism is such an explosive word. And it can cause issues because different people have a fundamentally different definition for it.

Under one definition, the action is only racist if it is the product of a racist mindset.

Under the other definition the outcome is what matters and an action is racist if it has a more negative outcome for different cultures.

Under the outcomes based definition, if a coaching group decides to exert excessive control over the lives of all players, it's likely to be considered racist as it'll have a more negative outcome for a disempowered cultural group. The white private school kids are more likely to know their rights and just ignore their boss or tell him to piss off. So under that definition, the action would be considered racist, even if the coaches didn't have a racist mentality or discriminate based on race.

 

[phantom13]

Yeah I don’t think anyone is saying organisations shouldn’t try to understand the experiences of First Nations players and staff, but the process Hawthorn undertook was terrible. Hard to think how they could have done it more poorly for such a large organisation which is apart of an even larger organisation. Especially in the context of Indigenous Australians having such a big and important role in the game and all the work that has been done to progress inclusiveness, culturally safe environments, recognition etc. It beggars belief.

Yeh, I mean I made the point that it was a flawed process from the start.

What did they do to clean up their mess?

They passed it off to others, making it someone else's problem then sat on their hands. Have they even apologised to everyone yet for the damage they have caused?

I don’t think they actually can? They started a review that was poorly planned and under the afls rules handed it to the afl when it went beyond the scope they had to resolve it.

To be clear I’m not defending hawthorn just saying they stuffed the governance and process at the start and didn’t have too many options to fix it past that point.

There’s every chance they cop a whack from the afl (and rightly so) at the end of this.

 

[phantom13]

You are so far off it's actually funny

The teachers union is one of the most left wing organisations in Australia!

According to you all those teachers that matched in the BLM protests, Free Palestine marches, etc, etc are all closet racists?

I don't think I can think off another professional organisation in Australia who are more politically aligned with the left (maybe the civil service in Canberra).

You strike me as someone who looks for racism where none exists as is the case with this whole sorry saga.

Your both just positing a lived experience.

I think your whole “I know two teacher so these other three teachers, who haven’t been teachers in 20 odd years, hit every other demographic to be racist, I’ve never met couldn’t possibly be racist” is absurd to me.

 

[Satan]

This is robbo so take it with a grain of salt

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/independent-report-says-racism-was-present-at-hawthorn/news-story/b3275d5bd37383b48477e99b046de612

 

[Hawksboy72]

If you can't distinguish between "Australia is a racist country" and "every Australian is racist" then this thread is probably going to be difficult for you.

What's the difference??...

On SM-S918B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[blackshadow]

If we are setting the bar for racism at a bad dad joke then society has well and truly jumped the shark.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Many Aboriginal people need someone to speak for them but if you decide that you're the one to speak then that comes with responsibility. You can do something with the right intentions but cause damage.

If these claims turn out to be weak then the wider public won't forget the way that the coaches were attacked. When a stronger claim comes along people will roll their eyes.

No different to people rolling their eyes for the past 200 years. Usually turn their backs as well.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Is speaking to someone charged with defrauding other aboriginal people a good or bad person to speak to?

What a stupid question.

 

[Chief]

What's the difference??...

On SM-S918B using BigFooty.com mobile app

This thread is going to be difficult for you.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You are so far off it's actually funny

The teachers union is one of the most left wing organisations in Australia!

According to you all those teachers that matched in the BLM protests, Free Palestine marches, etc, etc are all closet racists?

I don't think I can think off another professional organisation in Australia who are more politically aligned with the left (maybe the civil service in Canberra).

You strike me as someone who looks for racism where none exists as is the case with this whole sorry saga.

I guess you haven't lived the experiences I have. I don't find anything about it funny. Maybe take a walk in someone else's shoes. You strike me as someone who has no idea of racism and willl keep turning your back on it.

 

[South of the Yarra]

This is robbo so take it with a grain of salt

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/independent-report-says-racism-was-present-at-hawthorn/news-story/b3275d5bd37383b48477e99b046de612

Those highlighting Herald Sun reports late last week don't seem to be as quick to quote this article

 

[South of the Yarra]

Gee victim blaming and Aboriginal people no longer wanting to speak up. I wonder were I have heard that before. This report to be tabled in court.

 

[M Malice]

Racism is such an explosive word. And it can cause issues because different people have a fundamentally different definition for it.

Under one definition, the action is only racist if it is the product of a racist mindset.

Under the other definition the outcome is what matters and an action is racist if it has a more negative outcome for different cultures.

Under the outcomes based definition, if a coaching group decides to exert excessive control over the lives of all players, it's likely to be considered racist as it'll have a more negative outcome for a disempowered cultural group. The white private school kids are more likely to know their rights and just ignore their boss or tell him to piss off. So under that definition, the action would be considered racist, even if the coaches didn't have a racist mentality or discriminate based on race.

Seems like a very big call to allege a nod in a meeting a racist action and an even bigger call for all the stress and strain the process has caused to parties on both sides of this.

Sadly it looks like both sides have lost confidence in the process and in the frankness of people on the other side of the saga which is why a Federal Court case looks like happening.

 

[sr36]

Seems like a very big call to allege a nod in a meeting a racist action and an even bigger call for all the stress and strain the process has caused to parties on both sides of this.

Sadly it looks like both sides have lost confidence in the process and in the frankness of people on the other side of the saga which is why a Federal Court case looks like happening.

I'm not alleging it. Just suggesting that a lot of arguments about whehter something is or isn't racist racism comes down to the definition being used.

If the nod in the meeting is part of coercion being enacted by the coaching group - it could be categorised as a racist act - even if the nodder didn't have racist attitudes.

 

[M Malice]

I'm not alleging it. Just suggesting that a lot of arguments about whehter something is or isn't racist racism comes down to the definition being used.

If the nod in the meeting is part of coercion being enacted by the coaching group - it could be categorised as a racist act - even if the nodder didn't have racist attitudes.

Hypothetically if that ends up being the case what sort of punishment do you think would be appropriate?

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I guess you haven't lived the experiences I have. I don't find anything about it funny. Maybe take a walk in someone else's shoes. You strike me as someone who has no idea of racism and willl keep turning your back on it.

I'm calling you out for your statement that teachers (as a group generally not specific individuals) would be more likely to be racist just because they are in a position of power when all the evidence suggests that teachers are (once again as a group not individually) one of the more socially progressive cohorts of people in Australia.

If you think teachers are more racist than the general public then you really are deep down that rabbit hole.

I'm not turning my back on racism, it exists of course it does. But I've seen no evidence that it actually occured at the HFC.

Probably boundaries were overstepped (most likely by Clarko) due to poor governance, but a systematic targeting of the indigenous players based on their ethnicity/race no way.

In fact ask yourself what benefit would the coaches get by enacting racist acts against their players? What possibly could they hope to gain by doing that?

 

[the big lebowski]

Those highlighting Herald Sun reports late last week don't seem to be as quick to quote this article

View attachment 2010633

Not sure if serious

 

[cryptor]

Those highlighting Herald Sun reports late last week don't seem to be as quick to quote this article

View attachment 2010633

Gee victim blaming and Aboriginal people no longer wanting to speak up. I wonder were I have heard that before. This report to be tabled in court.

View attachment 2010639

Just to be clear here. The lawyers for the First Nations families commissioned a PhD who researches racism to write this report. And the report itself only assesses whether their claims of racist treatment were actually racism. It doesn't really add much to the conversation.

 

[JGreezy]

No different to people rolling their eyes for the past 200 years. Usually turn their backs as well.

The idea is to generate change, not to reinforce people's ignorant beliefs.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Just to be clear here. The lawyers for the First Nations families commissioned a PhD who researches racism to write this report. And the report itself only assesses whether their claims of racist treatment were actually racism. It doesn't really add much to the conversation.

It seemed to add a lot when leigh Matthews provided fodder for the Herald Sun last week. Ask yourself why it might be seen as different?

 

[Elixuh]

It seemed to add a lot when leigh Matthews provided fodder for the Herald Sun last week. Ask yourself why it might be seen as different?

Both are providing an opinion so likely not a whole lot of difference.

One difference is probably that Leigh is on the Board of the Lions and has been privy to all of the materials, legal advices etc etc since day 1. The PhD researcher wouldn't have been given that access.

 

[brmi]

It seems like a lot of people's 'lived experiences' are now meant to be treated as fact without questioning.

To label a certain profession more likely to be racist because of someone's personal experience is absolutely ridiculous.

But whatever suits the narrative I suppose.