NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[South of the Yarra]

I'm calling you out for your statement that teachers (as a group generally not specific individuals) would be more likely to be racist just because they are in a position of power when all the evidence suggests that teachers are (once again as a group not individually) one of the more socially progressive cohorts of people in Australia.

If you think teachers are more racist than the general public then you really are deep down that rabbit hole.

I'm not turning my back on racism, it exists of course it does. But I've seen no evidence that it actually occured at the HFC.

Probably boundaries were overstepped (most likely by Clarko) due to poor governance, but a systematic targeting of the indigenous players based on their ethnicity/race no way.

In fact ask yourself what benefit would the coaches get by enacting racist acts against their players? What possibly could they hope to gain by doing that?

So you think that people in who are in a position of power are less likely to be racist than the those not in power? You are not down a rabbit hole, you are in a cesspit.

 

[cryptor]

It seemed to add a lot when leigh Matthews provided fodder for the Herald Sun last week. Ask yourself why it might be seen as different?

I don't really read the Herald Sun (or keep up with this particular thread tbh). But I saw a clip of Footy Classified where they discussed Leigh's view. From what I heard it sounds like he's had access to more info than the public so I can see why there'd be more interest in what he has to say on the matter. But I also know where his allegiances sit with anything he chooses to comment on.

 

[hawkman]

This is robbo so take it with a grain of salt

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/independent-report-says-racism-was-present-at-hawthorn/news-story/b3275d5bd37383b48477e99b046de612

Probably slightly less trust worthy as the AFL prepared report. You could at least argue that there is some independence in the AFL one given it wasn't about them but Hawthorn
I would put it at the same level as if the lawyers of the coaches getting a report saying there was nothing that constituted racism in their dealings

 

[South of the Yarra]

It seems like a lot of people's 'lived experiences' are now meant to be treated as fact without questioning.

To label a certain profession more likely to be racist because of someone's personal experience is absolutely ridiculous.

But whatever suits the narrative I suppose.

Please question me, fire away. I await the questions. And have the balls to quote me direct rather some little side snipe in a post on its own. No, they are more likely to be racist when they hold a position of power. Pretty common sense I would imagine. Lets go with the questions.

 

[Elixuh]

Interesting that the PhD effectively concludes that Hawthorn created and fostered an environment which tolerated racism. A pretty disturbing and confronting conclusion to read if you have ever worked at Hawthorn I'd expect.

 

[brmi]

Please question me, fire away. I await the questions. And have the balls to quote me direct rather some little side snipe in a post on its own. No, they are more likely to be racist when they hold a position of power. Pretty common sense I would imagine. Lets go with the questions.

Have the balls? I have directly quoted you before and also directly asked you to explain further but you haven't.

You like to call out others on their beliefs but no one can question yours? Your very dismissive of any one that seems to question anything.

A whole ****ing profession is likely to be racist based on your personal experience. That's absolutely ludacris.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Have the balls? I have directly quoted you before and also directly asked you to explain further but you haven't.

You like to call out others on their beliefs but no one can question yours? Your very dismissive of any one that seems to question anything.

A whole ****ing profession is likely to be racist based on your personal experience. That's absolutely ludacris.

Now you are just making stuff up. Where did I say a whole profession is racist. You are talking absolute rubbish now. I said people in power such as teachers are more likely to be racist. Maybe read what I said properly first.

'From my lived experience it is those in a position of power which teachers are, who are more likely to be racist:

'No one can question me? I have just asked you in the previous post to question me. Please I await your questions.

 

[Engimal v3]

Those highlighting Herald Sun reports late last week don't seem to be as quick to quote this article

View attachment 2010633

Probably because of your follow up post where it's clarified that it was commissioned by their own lawyers lol

View attachment 2010639

Would a report commissioned by Clarkos lawyers saying he isn't racist hold any weight?

 

[rye]

lawyers arent in the business of finding experts who wont be sympathetic to their case

 

[South of the Yarra]

Probably because of your follow up post where it's clarified that it was commissioned by their own lawyers lol


Would a report commissioned by Clarkos lawyers saying he isn't racist hold any weight?

Lol. Thank you for proving my point. Perfect, the Matthews article holds no weight, yet everyone was quick to jump all over it as evidence. Didn't see that happening here under similar circumstances with a similar weight argument. Thanks again.

 

[sr36]

My parents were high school teachers and I've hung around a lot of teachers to know that on average (not talking individually but on average) teachers are generally more left leaning in their views.

Racism is a specturm and not a he is or he isn't racist situation. Even if teachers on average are lower on the racism spectrum than the average member of public, the nature of the power relationship and impact that teachers can have on the lives of kids, they as a collective probably have more of a racist impact than most other professions

 

[Elixuh]

Racism is a specturm and not a he is or he isn't racist situation. Even if teachers on average are lower on the racism spectrum than the average member of public, the nature of the power relationship and impact that teachers can have on the lives of kids, they as a collective probably have more of a racist impact than most other professions

In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know). But it was an odd statement.

 

[caveman72]

I hate it when i go into an Indian restaurant and they assume i don't want the curry strong due to my appearance.

You just ask for your hot not white boy hot or if you wanna be a smart ass you tell them they never make it hot enough

 

[Engimal v3]

Lol. Thank you for proving my point. Perfect, the Matthews article holds no weight, yet everyone was quick to jump all over it as evidence. Didn't see that happening here under similar circumstances with a similar weight argument. Thanks again.

I'm not sure what Matthews article you are referring to. By "Herald Sun reports late last week" I assumed you would be referring to their article where they revealed 2x independent reports that failed to find evidence of racism at Hawthorn.

What's the Matthews article?

 

[phantom13]

It seems like a lot of people's 'lived experiences' are now meant to be treated as fact without questioning.

To label a certain profession more likely to be racist because of someone's personal experience is absolutely ridiculous.

But whatever suits the narrative I suppose.

Worth noting that that convo started because that poster specifically noted a profession was LESS likely to be racist. So there is that little factor

 

[South of the Yarra]

In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know). But it was an odd statement.

If it was my comment you are referring to I actually said 'From my lived experience it is those in a position of power which teachers are, who are more likely to be racist.'

Would you not agree that people in positions of power are more likely to be racist?

 

[Elixuh]

If it was my comment you are referring to I actually said 'From my lived experience it is those in a position of power which teachers are, who are more likely to be racist.'

Would you not agree that people in positions of power are more likely to be racist?

Yeah so you're saying that if you're a teacher you hold a position of power and because of this you're more likely to be a racist.

If you do a search a lot of research shows that positions of power are determinative of worse outcomes or influence of racist behaviour rather than necessarily likelihood of being racist or at least the likelihood element isn't signficant/overwhelming. The reach is also much worse as a person in power can make a single decision which adversely affects thousands. So a person who is not in power and is racist is likely to be able to cause or influence psychological harm. A person in power who is racist can cause or influence psychological harm, systemic racist attitudes/behaviours etc, structural racism - so speaking to issues like access, inequality, socio-economic status etc.

 

[sr36]

In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know). But it was an odd statement.

It probably depends on your definition of racist - whether you're looking at the belief of the individual or the outcome of their actions.

In a case like this it's irrelevant whether the individuals - or teachers - have racist views towards individuals. It about their actions and whether they have racist outcomes towards individuals. I'm a teacher and I'd agree that teachers or other people in a position of influence are more likely to commit actions with racist outcomes. But I'd disagree that they're more likely to have racist attitudes.

I don't like labelling people as racist - as it's not a black and white thing...it's a spectrum and most of us are somewhere on it.

 

[Elixuh]

It probably depends on your definition of racist - whether you're looking at the belief of the individual or the outcome of their actions.

In a case like this it's irrelevant whether the individuals - or teachers - have racist views towards individuals. It about their actions and whether they have racist outcomes towards individuals. I'm a teacher and I'd agree that teachers or other people in a position of influence are more likely to commit actions with racist outcomes. But I'd disagree that they're more likely to have racist attitudes.

I don't like labelling people as racist - as it's not a black and white thing...it's a spectrum and most of us are somewhere on it.

I think that is a good point. If you give racism a broad enough definition then everyone has the capacity to be a racist given the right environment or circumstances. I don't profess to know nearly enough about different cultures around the world and could easily say something highly offensive without understanding the implication/context and the person I say it to may deem it racist.

Setting aside the extreme cases of overt racism, I think its really a matter then of how people engage with one another to listen, educate, understand, find common ground etc.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

If it was my comment you are referring to I actually said 'From my lived experience it is those in a position of power which teachers are, who are more likely to be racist.'

Would you not agree that people in positions of power are more likely to be racist?

That's an insane statement to say just because teachers have power over students (which is just the way a teacher / student relationship works and has always worked since the begining of history) they are by defacto more likely to be racist than the general population.

Of course in the total lack of actual hard evidence that we are faced with that any racism did indeed occur this is what occurs. People looking for racism based on the most tenuous of links.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Yeah so you're saying that if you're a teacher you hold a position of power and because of this you're more likely to be a racist.

If you do a search a lot of research shows that positions of power are determinative of the outcome or influence of racist behaviour rather than necessarily likelihood of being racist or at least the likelihood element isn't signficant/overwhelming. So a person who is not in power and is racist is likely to be able to cause or influence psychological harm. A person in power who is racist can cause or influence psychological harm, systemic racist attitudes/behaviours etc, structural racism - so speaking to issues like access, inequality, socio-economic status etc.

No incorrect. You have already changed the boundaries of your first comment 'In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know'
Where was my comparison that you claim? I will repeat those in a position of power are more likely to be racist. Does this mean all teachers are racist> Does this mean all teachers are more racist? If you think there is not nad has not been a significant number of teachers who have been racist because of their position of power, then I really can't help you. I don't need to do a search. I have spent 75% of my lifetime researching this and similar topics about Aboriginals. I have also lived it.

 

[rye]

No incorrect. You have already changed the boundaries of your first comment 'In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know'
Where was my comparison that you claim? I will repeat those in a position of power are more likely to be racist. Does this mean all teachers are racist> Does this mean all teachers are more racist? If you think there is not nad has not been a significant number of teachers who have been racist because of their position of power, then I really can't help you. I don't need to do a search. I have spent 75% of my lifetime researching this and similar topics about Aboriginals. I have also lived it.

can you provide any kind of research paper or source that backs up this claim? the ramifications if the literature supports it would be significant and i would be pretty disappointed people arent talking about it more if there has been academic papers produced that come to the same conclusion.

 

[South of the Yarra]

That's an insane statement to say just because teachers have power over students (which is just the way a teacher / student relationship works and has always worked since the begining of history) they are by defacto more likely to be racist than the general population.

Of course in the total lack of actual hard evidence that we are faced with that any racism did indeed occur this is what occurs. People looking for racism based on the most tenuous of links.

Seriously I am banging my head against a brick wall with you. I seriously don't know what rock you are living under. if you think there has not been substantial abuse of teachers 'since the beginning of history' whether that be racial, sexual or any other form of abuse then you seriously have no idea. You wouldn't, you haven't lived it.

 

[yodellinhank]

can you provide any kind of research paper or source that backs up this claim? the ramifications if the literature supports it would be significant and i would be pretty disappointed people arent talking about it more if there has been academic papers produced that come to the same conclusion.

You do realise South of the Yarra was just responding to a post which said teachers are less likely to be racist?

 

[Elixuh]

No incorrect. You have already changed the boundaries of your first comment 'In fairness to that Hawthorn guy, he was responding to a comment which said teachers are more likely to be racist (than who, I don't know'
Where was my comparison that you claim? I will repeat those in a position of power are more likely to be racist. Does this mean all teachers are racist> Does this mean all teachers are more racist? If you think there is not nad has not been a significant number of teachers who have been racist because of their position of power, then I really can't help you. I don't need to do a search. I have spent 75% of my lifetime researching this and similar topics about Aboriginals. I have also lived it.

Wot. If you define teachers as holding a position of power and anyone who holds a position of power is more likely to be racist then the only logical conclusion is that teachers are more likely to be racist and I think you said those exact words in a post above. This isn't a gotcha. You're now raising all this stuff in bold which I didn't say / is irrelevant to what I said.

I accept your lived experience. It is also the case that research which has looked into this issue on a broader scale of lived experiences doesn't necessarily always reflect this position.