NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Laphroaig]

That’s not at all what’s happening…

Yes, it is.

An accused abuser doesn't get to tell a potential victim when, where, or how they can seek redress.

No. Without comment on the moral rectitude of "comprehensive reviews" driven by employers, that is pretty much exactly how it goes in any line of work. To the point that other avenues of redress tend to take a dim view of failure to first seek satisfaction via employer processes.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

 

[Ricketz]

You made the assertion, and a thoroughly ridiculous one at that that “ accused abuser doesn't get to tell a potential victim when, where, or how they can seek redress”. That’s clearly not happening. If you want to know what is happening, go ahead and read yesterdays announcement, how it’s constituted and it’s TOR.

You seem to have lost track of your own thoughts. You said it says a lot if the people choose not to engage with the investigation.

Reading between the lines it is easy to guess what you meant by that statement.

If they choose not to engage with the organisation that oversaw the club that their allegations refer to, that is entirely their prerogative and says nothing at all about the credibility of their story. The AFL don't get to have the final say on this, the people involved do - whether it is through the AFL investigation, or other legal means.

It's their choice. Not yours, not the AFL's, not Clarkson's, Burt's or Fagan's.

 

[mcnulty]

Yes, it is

Wait, what? You’re suggesting the coaches here are determining the process?

 

[mcnulty]

You seem to have lost track of your own thoughts. You said it says a lot if the people choose not to engage with the investigation.

Reading between the lines it is easy to guess what you meant by that statement.

If they choose not to engage with the organisation that oversaw the club that their allegations refer to, that is entirely their prerogative and says nothing at all about the credibility of their story. The AFL don't get to have the final say on this, the people involved do - whether it is through the AFL investigation, or other legal means.

It's their choice. Not yours, not the AFL's, not Clarkson's, Burt's or Fagan's.

It tells me they’ve probably been advised by their lawyers not too.

 

[Ricketz]

Yes, it is.




No. Without comment on the moral rectitude of "comprehensive reviews" driven by employers, that is pretty much exactly how it goes in any line of work. To the point that other avenues of redress tend to take a dim view of failure to first seek satisfaction via employer processes.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

The allegations clearly extend outside the remit of workplace resolution. They have already engaged in that and found it to be unsatisfactory anyway. I don't know why, but I am guessing the fact that nothing was done by Hawthorn has something to do with it.

 

[Ricketz]

It tells me they’ve probably been advised by their lawyers not too.

Why would you again make a judgement you clearly have no insight to make?

 

[mcnulty]

Why would you again make a judgement you clearly have no insight to make?

Err, have you checked the last 300 odd pages? Why would anyone speculate in here? On an internet forum...

Get some sleep mate, you’re getting more ridiculous by the post.

 

[mcnulty]

Ah yes, the real victim here

The lawyers

 

[The Warlord]

The Swans are tough to peg. I believe there is an element of truth in your criticism. When you hear Kinear Beetson speak about recruitment, it is clear it is not all one way direction. He says he looks at the background of players to see the ones that have had less advantages, as that means the gap between their current performance and ceiling is wider. To me it seemed pretty clear that he meant it.

I don't for a second think Beetson is racist, but also, when you look at the Swans drafting its obvious where their priority is, and its not indigenous kids.

It'd be be fascinating to crunch the numbers and see which clubs are drafting/recruiting at are or above the league average for indigenous players and which aren't.

This is the fascinating thing - both Clarkson and Fagan's team have always been very heavily represented, I would guess well above the odds, with indigenous players.

I mean, there was an exodus of indigenous players from Adelaide after a the racist camp ... largely to Brisbane.

 

[The Warlord]

So they may not participate because they are feeling “rushed“ and “crushed” by a process they accelerated and made public by going to the media?

This doesn't sit at all well with me, albeit I recognise it is likely their lawyer rather than the actual families.

Judy Courtin using the same tactics she did for child sex abuse victims is pretty off too imo.

I know Judy from work I around that story in the early '10s, and while I like her on a personal level, she's nuts, and is using these families to push a wider agenda.

 

[The Warlord]

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

This was always happening when - avert you ears O sensitive ones - Rusty chose to frame his story in such a way that everyone was lawyering up as soon as it dropped.

 

[Alite]

This is a fallacy. Race is not defined by genetics - it is a social construct. You are using the genetic straw man when no-one uses race that way.

As a social construct race refers to a group of people that share socially defined characteristics. As such, concepts like race relations, or racial discrimination are very important to address.

It is not ancestry, which you seem to think it is - that is ethnicity.

Ricketz, be clear you know the rabbit hole in front of you,

Agreed. Race is not defined by genetics.. …Race does Not Exist!.

If race is defined by man then a star be put on peoples cloths. And eugenics has validity. If race exists (it does not) then eugenics is valid.

Culture is the word that you should have held onto.

culture matters, race does not exist


(I have a work colleagues in Poland, England, China, Indonesia, South America, North America, Spain, Thailand ,Singapore,
New Zealand.... I had one in Russia…(no longer allowed)….I think that is it.
I forgot Germany and France.)

Brazil as well


Race does not exist. It is a social construct designed to divide people. Some use it for their benefit, others rightly fear peoplepushing their ideas on them. All who use it have an agenda.


Culture exists! Race does not not exist.

 

[Ricketz]

I don't for a second think Beetson is racist, but also, when you look at the Swans drafting its obvious where their priority is, and its not indigenous kids.

It'd be be fascinating to crunch the numbers and see which clubs are drafting/recruiting at are or above the league average for indigenous players and which aren't.

This is the fascinating thing - both Clarkson and Fagan's team have always been very heavily represented, I would guess well above the odds, with indigenous players.

I mean, there was an exodus of indigenous players from Adelaide after a the racist camp ... largely to Brisbane.

Have you ever been to Sydney? Do you know anything at all about it's demographics? The Aboriginal population that wasn't forced to be relocated to regional NSW for the Sydney Olympics is largely located in rugby league heartland.

 

[Ricketz]

Ricketz, be clear you know the rabbit hole in front of you,

Agreed. Race is not defined by genetics.. …Race does Not Exist!.

If race is defined by man then a star be put on peoples cloths. And eugenics has validity.

Culture is the word that you should have held onto.

I know exactly what I am talking about. You are wrong, as a social construct it is very real. It is the foundation of racism.

Culture may be a defining element, or it may not. Physical appearance or geographic location may also define a race.

 

[travelli]

Please take this as a serious, sincere question, as that’s what it is.

Given we seem to all agree that crime is at a very high level amongst indigenous communities

And that disadvantage is the primary reason for this (as it is throughout the world where poverty, low levels of education, substance abuse and family dynamics all contribute to the issue).

As someone that appears to know a bit about this, what do you think the answers are to improving these important and sad issues?

As in practical, specific changes/programs/strategies etc.

Dadirri! Yolngu posted a clip before, but have a look at the full text

Dadirri - Miriam Rose Foundation

www.miriamrosefoundation.org.au

Most "fixes" seem to be about forcing compliance to white Australian values/laws, but I reckon Australia at all levels needs to revisit it's relationship with First Nations Australia to genuinely understand their perspective.

They are starting this in the Australian curriculum by incorporating First Nation perspectives across all subjects, and doing on local country experiences for all students. I think (hope) that when FN people see traditional way of life valued, respected and understood more across Australia, it will build their esteem and make it easier to pass their culture onto the youth in their communities.

It's a long term strategy.

 

[Ricketz]

This was always happening when - avert you ears O sensitive ones - Rusty chose to frame his story in such a way that everyone was lawyering up as soon as it dropped.

Get over it. He didn't frame the story. He broke it.

 

[Ricketz]

View attachment 1540308

What was your point again?

 

[Alite]

I know exactly what I am talking about. You are wrong, as a social construct it is very real. It is the foundation of racism.

Culture may be a defining element, or it may not. Physical appearance or geographic location may also define a race.

If my child is of a ”Physical appearance or geographic location may also define a race.” that is not like me… is she not of my race?
Can I have a child that is not of my race? If my child looks Asian but is born here… how do you define this child?

 

[Ricketz]

If my child is of a ”Physical appearance or geographic location may also define a race.” that is not like me… is she not of my race?

It depends, if she was raised in Japan she would be Japanese, what's your point?

 

[Alite]

It depends, if she was raised in Japan she would be Japanese, what's your point?

Race does not exist is my point…. If my child is born in Africa to and aglo-white and a Japanese girl and speaks Swahili…


I say this child has no race because race does not exist…


you say this child is…?? Exactly what race?

 

[Alite]

Race does not exist is my point…. If my child is born in Africa to and aglo-white and a Japanese girl and speaks Swahili…


I say this child has no race because race does not exist…


you say this child is…?? Exactly what race?

Defining things is important to many

the definition should be, we are all the same… with fun differences

 

[Ricketz]

Dadirri! Yolngu posted a clip before, but have a look at the full text

Dadirri - Miriam Rose Foundation

www.miriamrosefoundation.org.au

Most "fixes" seem to be about forcing compliance to white Australian values/laws, but I reckon Australia at all levels needs to revisit it's relationship with First Nations Australia to genuinely understand their perspective.

They are starting this in the Australian curriculum by incorporating First Nation perspectives across all subjects, and doing on local country experiences for all students. I think (hope) that when FN people see traditional way of life valued, respected and understood more across Australia, it will build their esteem and make it easier to pass their culture onto the youth in their communities.

It's a long term strategy.

It's shameful how little mainstream Australia knows about indigenous culture. We were taught that they were nomadic, didn't build permanent settlements, solid buildings or have farming, or writing - in other words, primitive.

But their achievements and culture are amazing. They navigated by the stars thousands of years before white men figured it out. Their writing can be seen on scar trees across the country and in their artwork. In Victoria they had stone buildings, irrigation and fish farms. They took advantage of Bernoulli's principle thousands of years before the Wright brothers. Their societies were many and varied, and had trade routes that were as large as the Silk Road and well before it. They also traded with Indonesians and Chinese.

But ask your average Aussie and they wouldn't have a clue about any of it.

 

[Alite]

Defining things is important to many

the definition should be, we are all the same… with fun differences

I may be wrong….


Race is defined as “a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits.” The term ethnicities is more broadly defined as “large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background.”


Damn… I think I am in the manority.

 

[sr36]

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

I'm not as critical of the AFL on indigenous issues as most seem to be. Overall, I think that they've been a really positive contributor to gradual social change, but as a major employer of indigenous people they've been involved in a lot of issues that are far broader socially than the AFL.

However, in this case, they're trying to rush through an inquiry with a timeline that isn't suited to the natural justice that they're claiming as a goal. It looks like a timeline designed to satisfy North and Brisbane's desire to have a clear resolution one way or the other before the bulk of preseason.

North and Brisbane are unfortunate collateral damage in this, but their needs and wants shouldn't stand in the way of a thorough inquiry into a significant issue.

 

[Alite]

Ok you are clearly not reading anything I have written. You are wrong, and smarter people than you or I know it.

I did read and unlike most … said I was wrong.