Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[My Tilly]

Line breaker?

Newcombe has an absolute cannon of a leg, Day is pure class and his kicking on both feet is superb, MacKenzie, Ward are both top notch kicks and well the only blokes who really aren't good kicks are Nash/Worpel, Nash looks awkward but it often works, and Worpel can kick the ball far enough it doesn't matter as much and he does what he's good at well (contested/clearance footy.)

It's why i like our midfield so much, the dynamic is so good, the kickers, line breakers, strength, explosiveness, pace & inside/outside mix. It's just about letting these players develop, alot of the pieces are there. Reid would be just a cherry on top.

Nah I'm talking about a player who can burst through a pack using their leg speed and open up the play.
Most clubs have at least one of them. De Goey, B.Smith, Petracca, Rozee etc.
I see Newcombe more like a Cripps whereas Walsh is the guy who can weave in and around stoppages and use his speed to make things happen.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Perhaps Mitchell had the inside word that the new club would be coming in relatively soon.

Therefore he knew he had to refresh the list with some quality draft picks asap, before the drafts become compromised again.

Whichever clubs are down at the bottom of the ladder around 2026-2030 may find themselves there for a long, long time.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Nah I'm talking about a player who can burst through a pack using their leg speed and open up the play.
Most clubs have at least one of them. De Goey, B.Smith, Petracca, Rozee etc.
I see Newcombe more like a Cripps whereas Walsh is the guy who can weave in and around stoppages and use his speed to make things happen.

Newcombe is more like Petracca imho

Day is also very quick and agile.

Mackenzie aswell and tested superbly for his 20m sprint.

Although first two mainly

 

[Saab NLAW]

Well aside from the excitable Dom, most Hawks supporters are looking at it from the point of view that I've just raised.

Reeves, Day and Newcombe have the potential to be our Gawn, Petracca and Oliver if their next 150 games continue to project like their first 30. That's why we're excited at the stats showing that the plans are working.

I also used those Demons players because Melbourne, IMO, have quite comfortably the best midfield in the competition. That's what we will be striving for.

My post was disagreeing with the nutter who thinks the current Hawks midfield is currently one of the in the comp.

Youre still arguing with yourself. You know there is a part of BF called Bay 13. There your posts can then be moved to the Divvy Van because they are too s**t even for the Bay.

So you think Hawthorn's midfield is one of the best in the competition?

Delusional, but quite funny

 

[Saab NLAW]

Melbourne have "the best" midfield.

Brisbanes is also there, the Dogs etc.

But we've played 1 of those teams and we beat them in the middle (Dogs). We were flogging them in there for just over 2 quarters, the next step is consistency and that'll come as it's a young group.

But even considering that, it's one of the better performing midfields currently.

So you've gone from one of the best to one of the better performing midfields?

I like where the hawks are going, I think they did the right thing in offloading JOM and Mitchell, and there is definitely positive signs. but the current hawks midfield is not one of the best right now. HairyO I don't understand why you're getting so triggered with me having this opinion, are you one of those nutters who can't handle someone having a different opinion than you?

Sensitive bunch these hawk fans, i think the issue is that they can't handle their team being irrelevant.

 

[HairyO]

My post was disagreeing with the nutter who thinks the current Hawks midfield is currently one of the in the comp.


So you think Hawthorn's midfield is one of the best in the competition?

Delusional, but quite funny

I think we are probably 6th or 8th at the moment. Our ruckman is higher than that, and our clearance work is as good as any other team, but we arent using the ball as well as the best midfields. We desperately need a forward line who can kick goals.

Which midfields are better than Hawthorn's and what metrics are you using?

 

[Saab NLAW]

I think we are probably 6th or 8th at the moment. Our ruckman is higher than that, and our clearance work is as good as any other team, but we arent using the ball as well as the best midfields. We desperately need a forward line who can kick goals.

Which midfields are better than Hawthorn's and what metrics are you using?

I would agree that right at this moment the Hawks midfield are definitely rated higher than your ladder position, slightly above middle is probably fair, i also agree that there is definite reason to be positive about the future.

So looking at this reply of yours why did you get so triggered with my opinion that they're currently not one of the best? Because it seems that you agree with me, rated 6th to 8th is clearly not 'one of the best'.

 

[HairyO]

I would agree that right at this moment the Hawks midfield are definitely rated higher than your ladder position, slightly above middle is probably fair, i also agree that there is definite reason to be positive about the future.

So looking at this reply of yours why did you get so triggered with my opinion that they're currently not one of the best? Because it seems that you agree with me, rated 6th to 8th is clearly not 'one of the best'.

Because you were not actually quoting anyone in any of your statements. Even Dominic, who is the most hyped up Hawks supporter on BF was talking about future potential when talking about being the best.

Given the average age of our midfield is probably around 21 I would say its a fair claim to make given we are already pushing the top 6 midfields and are holding our own against vastly more experienced players.

There was a time when Gawn, Oliver and Petracca showed glimpses of brilliance before they really took off. Its not farcical to think we could do the same.

 

[PenAndPaper]

So you've gone from one of the best to one of the better performing midfields?

I like where the hawks are going, I think they did the right thing in offloading JOM and Mitchell, and there is definitely positive signs. but the current hawks midfield is not one of the best right now. HairyO I don't understand why you're getting so triggered with me having this opinion, are you one of those nutters who can't handle someone having a different opinion than you?

Sensitive bunch these hawk fans, i think the issue is that they can't handle their team being irrelevant.

I think you're misunderstanding what we/I am saying.

If you look at our midfield on paper against the names of the superstar midfielders in the competition of course ours doesn't look to be anywhere near the best but on performance this season our midfield has been one of the best performers and that is exactly what we are saying.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Because you were not actually quoting anyone in any of your statements. Even Dominic, who is the most hyped up Hawks supporter on BF was talking about future potential when talking about being the best.

Dude, you need to pay attention, this is the post i responded to which got your knickers all twisted up

Our midfield has been one of the best in the comp so far,

So, yeah, you're wrong.

Really have no idea why you got so worked up over me not agreeing with the above statement, i think you need a nice hot cup of tea and calm down

 

[HairyO]

Dude, you need to pay attention, this is the post i responded to which got your knickers all twisted up



So, yeah, you're wrong.

Really have no idea why you got so worked up over me not agreeing with the above statement, i think you need a nice hot cup of tea and calm down

1. As mentioned, its Dominic
2. He said "one of" which you somehow then took to mean all Hawk supporters are saying we have the best.

Given you dont even support Hawthorn, the bigger question is, why are you so active in this thread?

 

[Saab NLAW]

I think you're misunderstanding what we/I am saying.

If you look at our midfield on paper against the names of the superstar midfielders in the competition of course ours doesn't look to be anywhere near the best but on performance this season our midfield has been one of the best performers and that is exactly what we are saying.

That's nice, but I disagree with you, I think Hawks midfield has been performing above their ladder position but nowhere near 'one of the best'

Heres's a question for you. Why do you all care so much about my opinion?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Dude, you need to pay attention, this is the post i responded to which got your knickers all twisted up



So, yeah, you're wrong.

Really have no idea why you got so worked up over me not agreeing with the above statement, i think you need a nice hot cup of tea and calm down

Saab. It isn’t a debate?

Statistically we are one of the better performing midfields and that’s a fact, I have only mentioned that, the other was that I believe our midfield “will be” one of if not the best in the future.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

1. As mentioned, its Dominic
2. He said "one of" which you somehow then took to mean all Hawk supporters are saying we have the best.

Given you dont even support Hawthorn, the bigger question is, why are you so active in this thread?

He’s misunderstanding what I’m saying anyway.

I never said we are the best, even based off statistical performance so far but we are one of the best statistically performing. And only mentioned aswell that we have the potential there to be one of if not the best midfield in the comp.

You can’t dispute the fact we’ve performed in 7 rounds better than most teams in there.

 

[HairyO]

He’s misunderstanding what I’m saying anyway.

I never said we are the best, even based off statistical performance so far but we are one of the best statistically performing. And only mentioned aswell that we have the potential there to be one of if not the best midfield in the comp.

You can’t dispute the fact we’ve performed in 7 rounds better than most teams in there.

Or more importantly, that our midfield is performing far better than they were expected to perform. Certainly later in the year there would have been improvements given how young they are... but its been surprisingly good.

Unfortunately let down by not having a functioning forward line.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Because you were not actually quoting anyone in any of your statements. Even Dominic, who is the most hyped up Hawks supporter on BF was talking about future potential when talking about being the best.

Given the average age of our midfield is probably around 21 I would say its a fair claim to make given we are already pushing the top 6 midfields and are holding our own against vastly more experienced players.

There was a time when Gawn, Oliver and Petracca showed glimpses of brilliance before they really took off. Its not farcical to think we could do the same.

Also just stating here, I do like to look at the positives for everything, because in terms of potential and talent most players have a fair amount, and their ceilings are often decided by themselves.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Or more importantly, that our midfield is performing far better than they were expected to perform. Certainly later in the year there would have been improvements given how young they are... but its been surprisingly good.

Unfortunately let down by not having a functioning forward line.

The structure of our forwardline and lack of consistency to run out games has been two of the big issues, the defense gets under the pump during the times we are “off” and with the fast ball movement off HB hard to defend.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Saab. It isn’t a debate?

Statistically we are one of the better performing midfields and that’s a fact, I have only mentioned that, the other was that I believe our midfield “will be” one of if not the best in the future.

If you cherry pick a couple of stats sure, but I disagree.

Apparently, having the audacity to disagree with this circle jerk is worthy of comments like this:

Youre still arguing with yourself. You know there is a part of BF called Bay 13. There your posts can then be moved to the Divvy Van because they are too s**t even for the Bay.

You lot really can't handle anyone disagreeing with you

 

[Dewyyyyy]

If you cherry pick a couple of stats sure, but I disagree.

Apparently, having the audacity to disagree with this circle jerk is worthy of comments like this:

Youre still arguing with yourself. You know there is a part of BF called Bay 13. There your posts can then be moved to the Divvy Van because they are too s**t even for the Bay.

You lot really can't handle anyone disagreeing with you

Cherry pick stats?

Our midfield clearance differential is one of the best in the competition, and our contested ball won by midfielders is also very good.

Clearance and contested footy is a big part of a midfield, and the ball use which we have is aswell.

There’s no cherry picking going on, it’s just performance based off 7 rounds. I’d still take a lot of midfields over ours if you’re taking a flag now, even tho some are performing worse.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

So you've gone from one of the best to one of the better performing midfields?

I like where the hawks are going, I think they did the right thing in offloading JOM and Mitchell, and there is definitely positive signs. but the current hawks midfield is not one of the best right now. HairyO I don't understand why you're getting so triggered with me having this opinion, are you one of those nutters who can't handle someone having a different opinion than you?

Sensitive bunch these hawk fans, i think the issue is that they can't handle their team being irrelevant.

I said that our midfield was one of the best currently, did you not take currently as in performance?

And there isn't a need to go so over the top with the irrelevant, nutters and all that stuff man, it's a discussion, just relax.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I would agree that right at this moment the Hawks midfield are definitely rated higher than your ladder position, slightly above middle is probably fair, i also agree that there is definite reason to be positive about the future.

So looking at this reply of yours why did you get so triggered with my opinion that they're currently not one of the best? Because it seems that you agree with me, rated 6th to 8th is clearly not 'one of the best'.

Our midfield group was 1st for clearance differential and were top 4 for centre clearance differential.

The differential is probably the better stat, because using pure averages is often beneficial to higher scoring teams, more opportunities for clearances etc.

We are currently 4th and 4th for clearance and centre clearance differentials.

Top 4 is "one of the best" imho.

Despite being beaten in the midfield quite badly after HT against the Dogs (probably top 3 for pure midfield talent and production) alongside Brisbane and Melbourne, we still beat them at their own game and beat them up badly there in the first half in particular.

It for me is about consistency, a forwardline structure and development. But even with all this, the stats do not lie. And the eye test doesn't either, if you watch our games you will know our midfield has been performing very well, Ned Reeves has been also one of the best pure hitout rucks this season and has been performing super well alongside our midfield brigade.

Nothing i have said is wrong, because i'd take midfields from teams like Carlton, Brisbane, Melbourne & the Dogs before i take Hawthorns, and even then, there's many teams with good midfields who aren't performing on a high stat production like Collingwood, but have a really good dynamic, De Goey, Mitchell, NDaicos, JDaicos, Pendles, Crisp.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I think you're misunderstanding what we/I am saying.

If you look at our midfield on paper against the names of the superstar midfielders in the competition of course ours doesn't look to be anywhere near the best but on performance this season our midfield has been one of the best performers and that is exactly what we are saying.

Spot on.

Quite hard to judge on paper, Will Day first season as a mid, Jai Newcombe 3rd season, Worpel only 24, Nash 1st full season as a midfielder and performing with a breakout year, Josh Ward 2nd season, Cam MacKenzie 1st season etc etc

 

[HairyO]

Spot on.

Quite hard to judge on paper, Will Day first season as a mid, Jai Newcombe 3rd season, Worpel only 24, Nash 1st full season as a midfielder and performing with a breakout year, Josh Ward 2nd season, Cam MacKenzie 1st season etc etc

And according to Dermie, Ned Reeves is still growing !!!

 

[Saab NLAW]

Cherry pick stats?

Our midfield clearance differential is one of the best in the competition, and our contested ball won by midfielders is also very good.

Clearance and contested footy is a big part of a midfield, and the ball use which we have is aswell.

There’s no cherry picking going on, it’s just performance based off 7 rounds. I’d still take a lot of midfields over ours if you’re taking a flag now, even tho some are performing worse.

Hawks are ranked 9th for clearances.

A team with such a dominant midfield should also be ranked high for i50's, Hawks are ranked 17th.

Let's have a look at some individual stats:

Hawks highest CP average is Worpel at #13 then the next is at #26.

Centre clearances, Worpel is equal 9th, next best is at Newcombe at 34.

Disposals, hawks don't have anyone in the top 30.

Reeves is doing well in the ruck and very promising, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he's one of the best.

Can't see any of the Hawks midfielders in the top 50 for goal assists

Metres gained, can't see a Hawk midfielder in the top 40

Just checked the AFL website for stats, Hawks ranked last for centre clearances...uh oh lol can't be bothered anymore

So yeah nah, cherry picking stats

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Hawks are ranked 9th for clearances.

A team with such a dominant midfield should also be ranked high for i50's, Hawks are ranked 17th.

Let's have a look at some individual stats:

Hawks highest CP average is Worpel at #13 then the next is at #26.

Centre clearances, Worpel is equal 9th, next best is at Newcombe at 34.

Disposals, hawks don't have anyone in the top 30.

Reeves is doing well in the ruck and very promising, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he's one of the best.

Can't see any of the Hawks midfielders in the top 50 for goal assists

Metres gained, can't see a Hawk midfielder in the top 40

Just checked the AFL website for stats, Hawks ranked last for centre clearances...uh oh lol can't be bothered anymore

So yeah nah, cherry picking stats

Do you just talk?

I stated we aren’t high for normal clearances because we don’t score enough to get more opportunities to get clearances, unlike a few others. “The differential is probably the better stat, because using pure averages is often beneficial to higher scoring teams, more opportunities for clearances etc.”

Day has missed games, Worpel/Newcombe had a couple games playing as fwds, the rotation hasn’t been the same so individually it isn’t super important.

Reeves is 2nd for HTA, Marc Pittonet was 1st. He’s averaging 28 hitouts and beat Tim English comprehensively on the weekend.

He’s a good young ruck who’s giving us first use, he’s still young for a ruck and has stuff to improve on but what he’s good at is giving us first use.

Goal assists doesn’t matter because our forwardline has been poor.

Metres gained isnt a stat that’s ever dominated by midfielders, you’d rather outside players with it, half backs and wingers.

However metres gained hasnt gotta lot to do with a midfield group, you spoke about eye test, if you’ve ever watched our midfield, you’d know by stats they win it. But they’re also filled with some really good user and different dynamics. Newcombe, Day, Ward, MacKenzie etc

Hawks are 4th for centre clearance differential as mentioned and 4th for clearances as a whole.

9th for centre clearances (totals) but again “The differential is probably the better stat, because using pure averages is often beneficial to higher scoring teams, more opportunities for clearances etc.” where’d you get your 18th from?

Anyway, you’ve just misunderstood what I originally said and you can’t argue against the stats given, it’s a well known thing, as is our lacking forwardline.

Nothing i have said is wrong, because i'd take midfields from teams like Carlton, Brisbane, Melbourne & the Dogs before i take Hawthorns, and even then, there's many teams with good midfields who aren't performing on a high stat production like Collingwood, but have a really good dynamic, De Goey, Mitchell, NDaicos, JDaicos, Pendles, Crisp.