Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Strapping Young Lad]

Was just a general statement and your post just happened to be there

You labelled Hawk posters in here as being part of a "cult" for daring to be ok with how their list is tracking. No sense of irony when you posted that 'general statement' about disrespect, I guess.

 

[VinnieB]

Correcting him on where players are training and why they’re not at training is disrespectful? Get a grip.

No, but it seems when he questioned some players, you were in a tizz and stopped sorting the mail at work just to post a counter.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

No, but it seems when he questioned some players, you were in a tizz and stopped sorting the mail at work just to post a counter.

Oh yeah, that was such a tizz to point out why Brockman isn’t training, and that it’s poor form to predict injury to one of our own.

Call the cops next time, I say.

 

[tonygeeks]

You labelled Hawk posters in here as being part of a "cult" for daring to be ok with how their list is tracking. No sense of irony when you posted that 'general statement' about disrespect, I guess.

Haha what do cult members do when the promised ascension, doomsday , day of judgment doesn’t eventuate ?

Latch on to another messiah asap I’d imagine


Better than admitting you were wrong isn’t it ?

 

[peetoo]

Footy clubs do resemble cults

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Haha what do cult members do when the promised ascension, doomsday , day of judgment doesn’t eventuate ?

Latch on to another messiah asap I’d imagine


Better than admitting you were wrong isn’t it ?

If you’re talking about the other thread it was redundant 3 years ago which I posted time and time again, when Hawthorn stopped trading out first rounders. Even the OP of that thread stated as much.

But anyway, if there was one club in the entire competition in the history of this game, whose supporters had every right to have faith in their coach, it was a Hawthorn supporter who watched Clarkson win 4 flags.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Haha what do cult members do when the promised ascension, doomsday , day of judgment doesn’t eventuate ?

Latch on to another messiah asap I’d imagine


Better than admitting you were wrong isn’t it ?

What didnt eventuate?

Because being one of the most successful and dominant sides of the modern era would be classed as "eventuated"

 

[Red Bull]

Footy clubs do resemble cults

 

[La Dispute]

I assume you mean, Newcombe and Ward as they’re starting mids in the side I posted, but that’s such a simplistic view.
There’s also Worpel who had a down year and played too heavy last year by his own admission and had shoulder surgery who will come back in, Nash who played as a ruck for half his games in 2022 due to not having any fit rucks, Meek who plays like another mid when the ball hits the deck, Stephens who is a big body inside type and finally Amon as more seasoned bodies who will all rotate though the middle.

Considering we were the worst performed midfield in 2022 and still knocked off the Cats and Lions, lost by a kick to the Pies and Blues and had both Swans and Dockers on the ropes until the last quarter the whole “you obviously won’t be competitive” has a real Kane Cornes level of hyperbolic bullshit to it.

Worpel also had 'down years' in 2020 and 2021. He peaked young and at best is a complimentary midfielder to his more talented teammates.

You can look at games in isolation, but it's not just the general loss of Mitchell and JOM that'll affect the competitiveness of the midfield. They set training standards and are at the age they act as additional on field coaches, help set up around the ground and can play a few roles the Hawks will now also need to replace. Regardless whether they are playing as permanent midfielders - which they weren't - their loss is a big net loss.

I'm not sure whether the Hawks are going to reach Melbourne 2011-2012 levels or anything, but there are going to be games they are going to be completely blown away due to the inexperience of their midfield.

 

[peetoo]

On field coaches? Just as well cos their disposal by foot turned out to be average

Actually. LOL


So, expecting Collingwood and freo to go deep in the finals then!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You can look at games in isolation, but it's not just the general loss of Mitchell and JOM that'll affect the competitiveness of the midfield. They set training standards and are at the age they act as additional on field coaches, help set up around the ground and can play a few roles the Hawks will now also need to replace.

One of the key reasons the football dept were happy to trade out the players they did was on the back of the leadership that had started to develop from a whole bunch of our 22-24 year olds by design, due to the flattening of the leadership group and looking passed them.

I go to Hawthorn training enough to know that our training standards won’t drop just because a couple of players left when we still have so many of our training leaders there.

Fwiw, Tom and JOM were relegated to bit-part players for the majority of last preseasons midfield drills, and we played the majority of 2022 without BigBoy.
The so-called loss of leadership may or may not be an issue at all, if Lewis, Moore, Hardwick, CJ and Newcombe continue to take strides forward under Sicily.

 

[La Dispute]

One of the key reasons the football dept were happy to trade out the players they did was on the back of the leadership that had started to develop from a whole bunch of our 22-24 year olds by design, due to the flattening of the leadership group and looking passed them.

I go to Hawthorn training enough to know that our training standards won’t drop just because a couple of players left when we still have so many of our training leaders there.

Fwiw, Tom and JOM were relegated to bit-part players for the majority of last preseasons midfield drills, and we played the majority of 2022 without BigBoy.
The so-called loss of leadership may or may not be an issue at all, if Lewis, Moore, Hardwick, CJ and Newcombe continue to take strides forward under Sicily.

This all sounds very optimistic and rose-coloured.

It takes a long time to develop leadership and instil strong standards in a squad. It’s not just Mitchell and JOM they are going to be big losses, losing Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston from the squad is going to be massive.

CJ, Moore, Hardwick, Sicily et al aren’t just going to pick up the slack, and none of those guys have never played in a successful Hawks squads. I’m assuming it’s just Breust left over from the three-peat era.

The reality is the current Hawks midfield is challenging the early GWS and GC midfields for inexperience. There’s going to be games they are completely blown out of the water.

 

[peetoo]

This all sounds very optimistic and rose-coloured.

It takes a long time to develop leadership and instil strong standards in a squad. It’s not just Mitchell and JOM they are going to be big losses, losing Shiels, McEvoy and Gunston from the squad is going to be massive.

CJ, Moore, Hardwick, Sicily et al aren’t just going to pick up the slack, and none of those guys have never played in a successful Hawks squads. I’m assuming it’s just Breust left over from the three-peat era.

The reality is the current Hawks midfield is challenging the early GWS and GC midfields for inexperience. There’s going to be games they are completely blown out of the water.

I don’t think anyone regards the Gunston loss as anything but

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

This all sounds very optimistic and rose-coloured.

It’s quite literally why the footy dept signed off on the trades.
They want the young leaders to take charge and create their own legacy.

 

[La Dispute]

It’s quite literally why the footy dept signed off on the trades.
They want the young leaders to take charge and create their own legacy.

Don’t think anyone doubts that, but when you fling your best players for peanuts - on top of losing a stack of premiership veterans - there’s a real danger of sinking your professional standards.

Young players ‘creating their own legacy’ is often starry-eyed claptrap.

There’s huge Carlton 2006 vibes around the Hawks right now.

 

[La Dispute]

I don’t think anyone regards the Gunston loss as anything but

Gunston would have been a handy player to keep around for a couple of years.

Leadership, versatile, decent output, but understandably he wanted another crack at a flag and wasn’t going to get it at Hawthorn.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Don’t think anyone doubts that, but when you fling your best players for peanuts - on top of losing a stack of premiership veterans - there’s a real danger of sinking your professional standards.

Young players ‘creating their own legacy’ is often starry-eyed claptrap.

There’s huge Carlton 2006 vibes around the Hawks right now.

I would almost bet you were nodding along with Cornes when he said the below.
They weren’t our best players as shown by the B&F results, and it’s not like we brought nothing in the other way via trade and FA, either.

 

[Freomaniac]

One of the key reasons the football dept were happy to trade out the players they did was on the back of the leadership that had started to develop from a whole bunch of our 22-24 year olds by design, due to the flattening of the leadership group and looking passed them.

I go to Hawthorn training enough to know that our training standards won’t drop just because a couple of players left when we still have so many of our training leaders there.

Fwiw, Tom and JOM were relegated to bit-part players for the majority of last preseasons midfield drills, and we played the majority of 2022 without BigBoy.
The so-called loss of leadership may or may not be an issue at all, if Lewis, Moore, Hardwick, CJ and Newcombe continue to take strides forward under Sicily.

teams rise, teams fall, teams rise again and teams fall again then rise gain etc.


Freo copped their fair whack of abuse in that 2016-21 rebuild.

Still remember both the 2017 and 2018 seasons where both years dockers got 14th with 8 wins and 14 losses.

Hawks fans on here constantly bagged out Ross Lyon and wanting him to go. I dismissed it and brushed all that Aside.

I didnt care that Ross was the Coach, I was more concerned about the development of those 2016 and 2017 and 2018 draftees as that was the part of the side that will get us not only make our next finals but lead to our next finals win.

 

[La Dispute]

I would almost bet you were nodding along with Cornes when he said the below.
They weren’t our best players as shown by the B&F results, and it’s not like we brought nothing in the other way via trade and FA, either.

Didn’t realise he’d said anything about the trades. I don’t follow most mainstream footy shows and don’t use Twitter.

It’s fairly common knowledge the Hawks gave up Mitchell and JOM for very little.

You can use BnF results to determine a players, but by your own admission Mitchell threw both around the field this year and that isn’t conducive to producing their best footy - neither player really has a secondary position and played alternative roles as the Hawks prioritised getting stoppage time into Newcombe, Ward and other young midfielders.

If they are played in their first choice position - as stoppage midfielders - along with Sicily they are the Hawks best and most important players. Mitchell himself was arguably a Top 10 player in 2021 and dominated the back half of that year.

No club ever brings nothing the other way through trade or FA, it’s just going to depend on how the players adapt to a new system and the set of circumstances. Meek is a good long term ruck option. Stephens is young and has shown glimpses as an inside mid.

Amon is an interesting acquisition that I could see being a wrong place/wrong time type deal. He was blessed with a strong inside group at the Power, but doesn’t have the same luxury at the Hawks. Could see it panning out similar to Polec at North or Hill at the Saints.

My point though was the Hawks gave up two high quality contracted players for very little compensation. It wasn’t quite SOS grabbing two first round picks for an ageing Bryce Gibbs.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I would almost bet you were nodding along with Cornes when he said the below.
They weren’t our best players as shown by the B&F results, and it’s not like we brought nothing in the other way via trade and FA, either.

Where did Stephens and Meek finish in their previous clubs B&F’s?

Mitchell finished 5th, JOM 7th and Gunston 11th (16 games). To say they weren’t amongst your clubs best players is lying.

 

[Hawks78]

WTF. I have never seen this level of blatant tanking acceptance by a club. Sam Mitchell outright said he wanted to tank and not meddle around in the middle. Their trade period.

Are the ******* AFL going to step in and do something? AFL need to go down hard on Hawks and strip them of picks

I've never seen another club purposely and blatantly tank. It's unfair they are doing that to obtain a generational player in Harley Reid

They are completely compromising the draft!!!

Dude your hilarious. He is saying that we need to blood kids, rather than hold on for 9-10th spot like StKilda have been doing for 10 years. Lets focus on Geelong getting a player that was top 10 pick a few seasons back, plus pick 7 for free...thats after winning a flag. Lets get serious buddy. Focus on the real issues here

 

[Hawks78]

Where did Stephens and Meek finish in their previous clubs B&F’s?

Mitchell finished 5th, JOM 7th and Gunston 11th (16 games). To say they weren’t amongst your clubs best players is lying.

It all comes down to age and potential mate.

 

[Hawks78]

And if Hawthorn don't win a flag in the 2020's I can guarantee there will be no Hawthorn supporters

we havent had to test this theory since the 50's so who knows...lol

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Didn’t realise he’d said anything about the trades. I don’t follow most mainstream footy shows and don’t use Twitter.

You didn’t watch the clip, did you. Or take note of the date.

These are players that every man and his dog on here said were not the way forward, and when they get traded and subsequently help us get other players in as well as a second first round pick, the same people are making out like we should have kept them.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Where did Stephens and Meek finish in their previous clubs B&F’s?

Mitchell finished 5th, JOM 7th and Gunston 11th (16 games). To say they weren’t amongst your clubs best players is lying.

“Amongst”?

That’s not was was posted. “Your best players” was written, and Tom and JOM were not that.