Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

Should Hawks Be Punished?


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Well he isn’t as good as good a ruck as Pittonet or as good at ground level or forward of the ball as TDK, so he’d likely be 3rd in line and potentially 4th depending on Mirkov’s progression over the off season.

I get he’s considered a big ticket signing by Hawks supporters these days but he’s not that great.
Carlton have a younger and better prospect in De Koning who has exposed AFL form.

Meek is a two's ruckman until he proves otherwise. Traded for one of your best midfielders after a season where you were smashed on ball week in week out.
Lloyd Meek was drafted in the same draft as TDK and only a few months separate them. Last year Meek averaged more Hitouts, Disposals, Clearances, Goals, Tackles but sure tell me more of your mighty ruck depth.
 
Lloyd Meek was drafted in the same draft as TDK and only a few months separate them. Last year Meek averaged more Hitouts, Disposals, Clearances, Goals, Tackles but sure tell me more of your mighty ruck depth.
Small sample size with Meek though, while TDK played forward when Pittonet was in the side.

Meek’s lack of versatility combined with him mostly being a reserves player puts him well behind.
 
Small sample size with Meek though, while TDK played forward when Pittonet was in the side.

Meek’s lack of versatility combined with him mostly being a reserves player puts him well behind.
TDK didn't kick a single goal when Pittonet played in the same side, so what was he doing up forward? You sure Meek's the one which lacks versatility?
 

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TDK didn't kick a single goal when Pittonet played in the same side, so what was he doing up forward? You sure Meek's the one which lacks versatility?
Crashing packs, drawing defenders away from the Coleman medalists so they can kick bulk goals on the reg.

Tell us more about Meek’s WAFL form though.
 
Well he isn’t as good as good a ruck as Pittonet or as good at ground level or forward of the ball as TDK, so he’d likely be 3rd in line and potentially 4th depending on Mirkov’s progression over the off season.

I get he’s considered a big ticket signing by Hawks supporters these days but he’s not that great.
You’re making me laugh, because it seems you’re generally clueless about Meek, you’ve just apportioned a rating to him based on a poor understanding of the trade and throwing in all these little baited hooks about him being “a state league ruck”.

The funniest part though is that this thread is about Hawthorn, yet you’re constantly referencing how bad Carlton were at list building and development like it means Hawthorn will have to be too, and now you’re straying into how much better your players are despite not having achieved a thing at all.
 
You’re making me laugh, because it seems you’re generally clueless about Meek, you’ve just apportioned a rating to him based on a poor understanding of the trade and throwing in all these little baited hooks about him being “a state league ruck”.

The funniest part though is that this thread is about Hawthorn, yet you’re constantly referencing how bad Carlton were at list building and development like it means Hawthorn will have to be too, and now you’re straying into how much better your players are despite not having achieved a thing at all.
We both know you’re not laughing right now.

I’m looking purely from a list composition point of view. If you throw in a stack of young, developing midfielders with very little senior support then you get torched on a weekly basis.

That’s what happened to Gold Coast, that’s what happened to GWS, that’s what happened to Melbourne when they removed their solid senior senior bodies. The same thing happened to us when we traded Tuohy and Gibbs and then lost Docherty to injury in the same off season.

Look how North Melbourne’s midfield has performed without Cunnington heading their on ball division this season.

I can’t remember the last time a side entered a season with such a young an experienced midfield group. You can say it doesn’t matter because there was an effort to remove Mitchell and JOM from the stoppages, but game day is just the tip of the iceberg.

Which midfielders are now setting training standards and passing years of knowledge down to the young inside mids? Newcombe? Worpel? The Hawks have also now lost Shiels and McEvoy who played pivotal roles in the threepeat and would have also been handy to ferry the next generation through the next couple of seasons.

Hawks supporters are really putting their heads in the sands on this one.
 
Crashing packs, drawing defenders away from the Coleman medalists so they can kick bulk goals on the reg.

Tell us more about Meek’s WAFL form though.
When Pittonet played along side TDK, McKay averaged 2.25 goals and Curnow 3 goals it would seem TDK had no affect on their ability to kick goals.

Meek dominated the WAFL, why?
 
Which midfielders are now setting training standards and passing years of knowledge down to the young inside mids? Newcombe? Worpel? The Hawks have also now lost Shiels and McEvoy who played pivotal roles in the threepeat and would have also been handy to ferry the next generation through the next couple of seasons.

Hawks supporters are really putting their heads in the sands on this one.
You would hope the coaches as it is their job....
 
You would hope the coaches as it is their job....
Players learn as much off the senior members of the squad.

You don’t win games off footy with spreadsheets. Young players in particular need guys to model their games on, and pick up on their behaviours and standards - they’re the ones on the track kicking balls after all.

You don’t want 15 James Worpel clones.
 
We both know you’re not laughing right now.

I’m looking purely from a list composition point of view. If you throw in a stack of young, developing midfielders with very little senior support then you get torched on a weekly basis.

That’s what happened to Gold Coast, that’s what happened to GWS, that’s what happened to Melbourne when they removed their solid senior senior bodies. The same thing happened to us when we traded Tuohy and Gibbs and then lost Docherty to injury in the same off season.

Look how North Melbourne’s midfield has performed without Cunnington heading their on ball division this season.

I can’t remember the last time a side entered a season with such a young an experienced midfield group. You can say it doesn’t matter because there was an effort to remove Mitchell and JOM from the stoppages, but game day is just the tip of the iceberg.

Which midfielders are now setting training standards and passing years of knowledge down to the young inside mids? Newcombe? Worpel? The Hawks have also now lost Shiels and McEvoy who played pivotal roles in the threepeat and would have also been handy to ferry the next generation through the next couple of seasons.

Hawks supporters are really putting their heads in the sands on this one.


Sam Mitchell was pleasantly surprised at the development within the group from a leadership perspective over the past 12 months, which ultimately resulted in O'Meara and T.Mitchell moving on due to their departures being easy to cover.

That's how he sees it and he's the guy running the show. As of right now he knows the inner workings of the group better than any supporter of opposition detractor.

Let it play out before suggesting we'll be Gold Coast/GWS in the early years.
 
Sam Mitchell was pleasantly surprised at the development within the group from a leadership perspective over the past 12 months, which ultimately resulted in O'Meara and T.Mitchell moving on due to their departures being easy to cover.

That's how he sees it and he's the guy running the show. As of right now he knows the inner workings of the group better than any supporter of opposition detractor.

Let it play out before suggesting we'll be Gold Coast/GWS in the early years.
Oh, hai Sam Mitchell
 
4 of 10 players brought in being mature blows some of the comments away

All I take from some advisors is ‘don’t be like carlton’

Funny thing is, we used to say carlton/Melbourne. Now it’s just carlton
 
Small sample size with Meek though, while TDK played forward when Pittonet was in the side.

Meek’s lack of versatility combined with him mostly being a reserves player puts him well behind.

Pittonet was a reserves player who went to carlton for more opportunity. It’s the same thing. He will have a better career than pittonet
 

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Carlton have a younger and better prospect in De Koning who has exposed AFL form.

Meek is a two's ruckman until he proves otherwise. Traded for one of your best midfielders after a season where you were smashed on ball week in week out.
Just maybe O'Meara was part of the issue on why we were smashed on ball week in week out for the last 3 years
 
We both know you’re not laughing right now.

I’m looking purely from a list composition point of view. If you throw in a stack of young, developing midfielders with very little senior support then you get torched on a weekly basis.

That’s what happened to Gold Coast, that’s what happened to GWS, that’s what happened to Melbourne when they removed their solid senior senior bodies. The same thing happened to us when we traded Tuohy and Gibbs and then lost Docherty to injury in the same off season.

Look how North Melbourne’s midfield has performed without Cunnington heading their on ball division this season.
Oh, I’m very much laughing because you are really trying to convince Hawthorn supporters that the list and trade decisions are errors. Not that it will change a thing for the majority of us as we’re a blessed lot who have seen so much success that we’re quite content with the club doing what they see as best, but I think it’s quite obvious that you won’t even contemplate that you might not know the Hawthorn list as well as you think and that the footy dept could have gotten it right.

You’re talking about and making comparisons to two expansion clubs with zero culture, a 50 year basketcase and a club that had their senior coach mentally implode in the hubs, making some sort of suggestion that Hawthorn are destined to be in a similar position, as if the most successful club in the last 60 years have no idea what they’re doing when they make these calls, like they don’t have a rich history, with 10’s of premiership players and thousands of members who drill into youngsters what the jumper means and what is expected of them.
The comparisons to GWS and the Suns is completely laughable in this regard.

I can’t remember the last time a side entered a season with such a young an experienced midfield group. You can say it doesn’t matter because there was an effort to remove Mitchell and JOM from the stoppages, but game day is just the tip of the iceberg.

Which midfielders are now setting training standards and passing years of knowledge down to the young inside mids? Newcombe? Worpel? The Hawks have also now lost Shiels and McEvoy who played pivotal roles in the threepeat and would have also been handy to ferry the next generation through the next couple of seasons.

Hawks supporters are really putting their heads in the sands on this one.
We’re coached by one of the best and most successful midfielders in the modern era, widely regarded as a footy genius, who’s seen enough in the group to believe that they can build something themselves, without having their hand held by 30 year olds.

Injuries may play a part, but I’ll back him and Hickmott in to know what a midfield needs (especially considering they’re both premiership assistants), and particularly how to develop contested players based on the rise of Newcombe and Nash in the small time that Mitchell has put them in the centre bounce, because training standards and effort are certainly nothing to be concerned with from what I have seen.


Lastly, to make out like Sheils would have been some sort of required player in 2023 when he played out the year at Box Hill and had clearly been overtaken by so many youngsters who need games is just odd, as is the mentioning on McEvoy who would only be taking games away from Reeves, Meek and Lynch going forward.

Gunston and JOM were the biggest losses, but at least we got players back in the door, and not just draft picks.
 
Lloyd Meek was drafted in the same draft as TDK and only a few months separate them. Last year Meek averaged more Hitouts, Disposals, Clearances, Goals, Tackles but sure tell me more of your mighty ruck depth.


Great to see hawks supporters waxing lyrical about Lloyd meek now .

Pre trade he was apparently no more than back up depth to the Uber talented Ned reeves and the mighty Max lynch.

Now he’s better than half the leagues starting ruckmen
Carlton have a younger and better prospect in De Koning who has exposed AFL form.

Meek is a two's ruckman until he proves otherwise. Traded for one of your best midfielders after a season where you were smashed on ball week in week out.
 
Great to see hawks supporters waxing lyrical about Lloyd meek now .

Pre trade he was apparently no more than back up depth to the Uber talented Ned reeves and the mighty Max lynch.

Now he’s better than half the leagues starting ruckmen
He will very likely be second fiddle to Ned Reeves, or they may alternate pecking order as he was traded in to be a number 1 ruck. Good problem to have.
 
We both know you’re not laughing right now.

I’m looking purely from a list composition point of view. If you throw in a stack of young, developing midfielders with very little senior support then you get torched on a weekly basis.

That’s what happened to Gold Coast, that’s what happened to GWS, that’s what happened to Melbourne when they removed their solid senior senior bodies. The same thing happened to us when we traded Tuohy and Gibbs and then lost Docherty to injury in the same off season.

Look how North Melbourne’s midfield has performed without Cunnington heading their on ball division this season.

I can’t remember the last time a side entered a season with such a young an experienced midfield group. You can say it doesn’t matter because there was an effort to remove Mitchell and JOM from the stoppages, but game day is just the tip of the iceberg.

Which midfielders are now setting training standards and passing years of knowledge down to the young inside mids? Newcombe? Worpel? The Hawks have also now lost Shiels and McEvoy who played pivotal roles in the threepeat and would have also been handy to ferry the next generation through the next couple of seasons.

Hawks supporters are really putting their heads in the sands on this one.
Worpel obviously ….
Considering he’s the only one still playing for them from their new calendar……

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Just maybe O'Meara was part of the issue on why we were smashed on ball week in week out for the last 3 years
Apparently we're in trouble from trading out our two best midfielders from the worse performing midfield in the competition.

Great to see hawks supporters waxing lyrical about Lloyd meek now .

Pre trade he was apparently no more than back up depth to the Uber talented Ned reeves and the mighty Max lynch.

Now he’s better than half the leagues starting ruckmen
Never said Meek was better than half the league just equal or better than anything Carlton has. Reeves will be our number one ruck splitting duties with Meek.
 
Oh, I’m very much laughing because you are really trying to convince Hawthorn supporters that the list and trade decisions are errors. Not that it will change a thing for the majority of us as we’re a blessed lot who have seen so much success that we’re quite content with the club doing what they see as best, but I think it’s quite obvious that you won’t even contemplate that you might not know the Hawthorn list as well as you think and that the footy dept could have gotten it right.

You’re talking about and making comparisons to two expansion clubs with zero culture, a 50 year basketcase and a club that had their senior coach mentally implode in the hubs, making some sort of suggestion that Hawthorn are destined to be in a similar position, as if the most successful club in the last 60 years have no idea what they’re doing when they make these calls, like they don’t have a rich history, with 10’s of premiership players and thousands of members who drill into youngsters what the jumper means and what is expected of them.
The comparisons to GWS and the Suns is completely laughable in this regard.


We’re coached by one of the best and most successful midfielders in the modern era, widely regarded as a footy genius, who’s seen enough in the group to believe that they can build something themselves, without having their hand held by 30 year olds.

Injuries may play a part, but I’ll back him and Hickmott in to know what a midfield needs (especially considering they’re both premiership assistants), and particularly how to develop contested players based on the rise of Newcombe and Nash in the small time that Mitchell has put them in the centre bounce, because training standards and effort are certainly nothing to be concerned with from what I have seen.


Lastly, to make out like Sheils would have been some sort of required player in 2023 when he played out the year at Box Hill and had clearly been overtaken by so many youngsters who need games is just odd, as is the mentioning on McEvoy who would only be taking games away from Reeves, Meek and Lynch going forward.

Gunston and JOM were the biggest losses, but at least we got players back in the door, and not just draft picks.
You remind me of a Carlton supporter circa 2002-2006.

We know your track record record over the past 4 seasons.

It’s great to watch.
 
Mitchell selling more golddust than Willy Wonka of late - the core of their next Premiership side are already at the club?! Pure imagination!

The other Mitchell, Lewis, has been brave but I don't think he quite has it - and I do rate him.

Meek's prospects look dicey if nominative determinism is a thing; he will get opportunities though and hey, if Rhys Stanley can be a premiership ruckman anyone can do it. Seems a long journey though.

There's the outline of a good backline, sure.

It's all a bit Blue Sky at Glenferrie of late, poor old Cooper Stephens won't know what's hit him if he's going to be playing serious AFL minutes next year. Hopefully he is resilient.
 
Mitchell selling more golddust than Willy Wonka of late - the core of their next Premiership side are already at the club?! Pure imagination!

The other Mitchell, Lewis, has been brave but I don't think he quite has it - and I do rate him.

Meek's prospects look dicey if nominative determinism is a thing; he will get opportunities though and hey, if Rhys Stanley can be a premiership ruckman anyone can do it. Seems a long journey though.

There's the outline of a good backline, sure.

It's all a bit Blue Sky at Glenferrie of late, poor old Cooper Stephens won't know what's hit him if he's going to be playing serious AFL minutes next year. Hopefully he is resilient.
6th in goal per game for the year (only player under 25 in the top ten), averaged 3.1 goals before his injury which had him rated second in the league before he finished with 0,5,0,1,0 and went under the knife and missed the rest of the year.

But he doesn't quite have it right?
 
6th in goal per game for the year only players under 25 in the top ten. Averaged closer to 3 goals before his injury but sure he doesn't have it.

we'll see - can understand you defending him for sure. I do rate him, but he will need some serious support at the very least. Is that type of talent already at the club? You tell me ...
 
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we'll see - can understand you defending him for sure. I do rate him, but he will need some serious support at the very least. Is that type of talent already at the club? You tell me ...
The 2nd KPF is one of the biggest concerns.
 

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Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

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