Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[sr36]

Chol has been putting in a shift on the field when he's played this season. That's probably in part because he is keen to impress at his new club, though I think this is the way he was always been.

IMO this label of being lazy is unfair - I think it has a lot to do with how he is a smooth mover and looks unhurried most of the time. He has plenty of natural talent (size, leap, nice skills, speed), but when players like that don't put it all together they are seemingly labelled as lazy.

Maybe he hasn't been a tireless and diligent trainer off the field at training in the past? I've gone down to our trainings over the off-season and to me it seemed like Chol was working hard, despite having a hampered and delayed start to his preseason.

Either way, on the field he has been working hard.

I think he is a good pick up for most clubs - as a chop out ruck who is also a decent forward is hard to find.

You're probably right that he isn't actually lazy and is more languid in his movements - those kicks in general play when he lays back off one stup just look so slack - and are genuinely sloppy. I think there's an intensity issue there.

 

[SSSSSS]

Mabior Chol

18

Mabior Chol

Age

27

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

is the #1 KPF for tackles inside 50 this season. Equal 2nd for total tackles (#1 is shared by McKay and Mihocek who average 0.1 more tackles a game than Chol).

Top 10 for pressure acts for players who have played >5 games.

He's definitely not playing lazy football this year. If there's anything I've been surprised by it's his work rate without the ball.

He definitely has his weak spots that he needs to improve on but I've been pretty pleased with him so far.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You're trying to suggest that Chol is as good a player as Mihocek. That's not lazy, that's really idiotic.

It’s not idiotic at all, unless you want to ignore output.

 

[The 747]

It’s not idiotic at all, unless you want to ignore output.

Really.

 

[sr36]

It’s not idiotic at all, unless you want to ignore output.

Your posts are going from idiotic to moronic.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Your posts are going from idiotic to moronic.

You have literally just had it outlined above that Chol’s not been as bad as has been made out.
There’s very little between the two, and instead you’re doubling down and posting insults.

Mihocek averages just 0.4 more marks per game.
0.2 more marks inside 50.
0.5 more goals a year.
0.1 more tackles per game.

And all with Mihocek averaging 10% more TOG each week.

 

[NetworkNerd]

He's lazy. He'd certainly cause a fair bit of bickering on the Collingwood board. Cox or Chol? We'd be endlessly bickering about which unreliable ruck/forward who has the occasional good game to drop and which one to play. Cox for me despite all the problems as he can actually ruck and has a history of standing up with crucial big marks in big games - I don't think Chol has played in a big game yet, so perhaps he'd do likewise? I wonder what the largest crowd he's played in front of is?

78K Richmond v Collingwood 2019
73K Hawthorn v Essendon this year

 

[Tall poppy Syndrome]

I was there too. I saw it differently. I didn't see us as cooked. I saw us as having gone into safe defensive mode from too far out and not playing it well enough to handle the attacking swarm you got going.

The third quarter was even worse. Butchered entries galore from us and then when you broke the lines we had two back for Hardwick, but they paid him no respect. They were standing next to each other 15 metres in front of him and had no chance of stopping a diagonal lead.

The Pies around me were very much Phew rather than arrogant. Negative Pies fans thought our season was done because we weren't playing well enough and were playing really dumb complacent arrogant footy.

I wasn’t there. I was cooking a pie in the oven at the time. But when I ate it unfortunately it wasn’t cooked quite enough. I left the kitchen feeling different to both of you, quite violently ill actually.

Also, I wasn’t there for the 2008 grand final. Instead I was in Bulgaria kicking the dew on an early morning hike. For some strange reason I couldn’t get Tina Turner’s ‘We don’t need another unlikely bulky hero’ out of my head.

I haven’t been there for many key games.

 

[sr36]

You have literally just had it outlined above that Chol’s not been as bad as has been made out.
There’s very little between the two, and instead you’re doubling down and posting insults.

Mihocek averages just 0.4 more marks per game.
0.2 more marks inside 50.
0.5 more goals a year.
0.1 more tackles per game.

And all with Mihocek averaging 10% more TOG each week.

You are literally outlining that you are either a troll or don't really get footy at all. And yes, I was insulting your post, as it was ridiculous.

 

[sr36]

78K Richmond v Collingwood 2019
73K Hawthorn v Essendon this year

I'd forgotten he was a Tiger.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You are literally outlining that you are either a troll or don't really get footy at all. And yes, I was insulting your post, as it was ridiculous.

So like I said, you just want to ignore actual output to claim Mihocek is some super player.

Maybe it’s time to just recognise that Mihocek is nothing special at all.

 

[HairyO]

The calls of “he’s lazy” are at best lazy themselves. He is rated “elite” for tackles.

Seems a bit odd you’d compare him to Cox and not Mihocek. Maybe it’s because you know Mihocek is just a good honest undersized player.

Go have a look at both players comparable stats, marks, scoring, tackles inside 50, etc… if Chol is lazy or disappointing then your two most definitely are.

He certainly does lazy things. A couple of weeks ago he watched a ball bounce through for a goal when he was closer to the line than his opponent and he should have shepherded it through to be sure. Instead he watched as his opponent missed spoiling by maybe 10cm.

 

[The 747]

Next up, why Newcombe is better than Daicos.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Next up, why Newcombe is better than Daicos.

Dumb post is dumb.

Mihocek is no superstar of the comp.

 

[The 747]

Dumb post is dumb.

Mihocek is no superstar of the comp.

No Mihocek is not a superstar. He is however a lot better than Mabior Chol. It's interesting that you are trying to argue this.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Next up, why Newcombe is better than Daicos.

The AFL Coaches thought so in 2022.

For the record, Daicos is a star of the competition.
Newcombe has the potential to be, but has regressed a little this season.

Two completely different players though. Very hard to compare on a lot of metrics, even when both are playing as pure midfielders.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

No Mihocek is not a superstar. He is however a lot better than Mabior Chol. It's interesting that you are trying to argue this.

Yet he isn’t at all, unless, as I have said, you ignore their actual output in 2024 that I have posted and just go with the vibe.

Have now posted all the relevant stats above…. So what exactly does Mihocek do a lot better than Chol the stats don’t show?

Could it be that he doesn’t wear a Hawks jumper, my feline friend.

 

[sr36]

So like I said, you just want to ignore actual output to claim Mihocek is some super player.

Maybe it’s time to just recognise that Mihocek is nothing special at all.

If we're just looking at statistical output: the stats you posted were that Mihocek was averaging above Chol in all the categories you posted. And it's been his standard over 6 years. Meanwhile based on 7 games Chol is miles up on his historical output in most of the categories - yet is still averaging below Checkers. And you're comparing tackles of a forward who doesn't do any ruckwork with one who spends a fair bit of time in the centre of stoppages.

The other non statistical factors are that the most important part of a KPFs role is now getting to and halving contests - got any stats on that - I'd be betting Checkers is miles ahead. Then you've got two very different team styles. The Hawks this year have been trying to slingshot form the back half which gives marking forwards a lot more space and better looks at it than the front half pressure and repeat entry game that we're currently playing.

Mihocek is a bankable professional workhorse who has been doing a good job since he arrived in the AFL 6 years ago. You know you're going to get an excellent contest week in and week out. He'd make most teams better. Chol would get a game for teams with nobody to fill ruck/forward.

Your calls in this thread are going from bad to worse. A greatest hits of SYL from this thread would be very amusing.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

If we're just looking at statistical output: the stats you posted were that Mihocek was averaging above Chol in all the categories you posted. And it's been his standard over 6 years. Meanwhile based on 7 games Chol is miles up on his historical output in most of the categories - yet is still averaging below Checkers. And you're comparing tackles of a forward who doesn't do any ruckwork with one who spends a fair bit of time in the centre of stoppages.

The other non statistical factors are that the most important part of a KPFs role is now getting to and halving contests - got any stats on that - I'd be betting Checkers is miles ahead. Then you've got two very different team styles. The Hawks this year have been trying to slingshot form the back half which gives marking forwards a lot more space and better looks at it than the front half pressure and repeat entry game that we're currently playing.

Your calls in this thread are going from bad to worst. A greatest hits of SYL from this thread would be very amusing.

Theirs is nothing about Mihocek’s performance in 2024 that is “a lot better” than Chol’s to date.

That’s quite clearly outlined in the stats, even with the disparity in TOG.

Mihocek also playing in a side with a much more known and ingrained system, while Chol is playing in a new side, being asked to do more due to Lewis’s injuries…. And still the stats are not outlining Mihocek is greatly better at anything in particular.

That’s just the facts, and you can name call and finger point all you want.

 

[The 747]

Theirs is nothing about Mihocek’s performance in 2024 that is “a lot better” than Chol’s to date.

That’s quite clearly outlined in the stats, even with the disparity in TOG.

Mihocek also playing in a side with a much more known and ingrained system, while Chol is playing in a new side, being asked to do more due to Lewis’s injuries…. And still the stats are not outlining Mihocek is greatly better at anything in particular.

That’s just the facts, and you can name call and finger point all you want.

Since you are so keen to die on this hill, I took a look and Mihocek is only ahead in terms of:

Kicks, handballs, contested and uncontested marks, marks inside 50, goals, behinds, contested and uncontested possessions, tackles, effective disposals, clangers and metres gained. All those football kinda things.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Since you are so keen to die on this hill, I took a look and Mihocek is only ahead in terms of:

Kicks, handballs, contested and uncontested marks, marks inside 50, goals, behinds, contested and uncontested possessions, tackles, effective disposals, clangers and metres gained. All those football kinda things.

Oh dear

 

[sr36]

Theirs is nothing about Mihocek’s performance in 2024 that is “a lot better” than Chol’s to date.

That’s quite clearly outlined in the stats, even with the disparity in TOG.

Mihocek also playing in a side with a much more known and ingrained system, while Chol is playing in a new side, being asked to do more due to Lewis’s injuries…. And still the stats are not outlining Mihocek is greatly better at anything in particular.

That’s just the facts, and you can name call and finger point all you want.

The leading goal kicker for the past 5 years of the current Premier, whose biggest contribution isn't goals, who has had multiple top 10 bnf finishes in good teams including last year's season vs A fringe player journeyman. And somehow you think that the leading goal kicker being ahead in all stats for this year is evidence that they are equal.

This is just making me smile. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Since you are so keen to die on this hill, I took a look and Mihocek is only ahead in terms of:

Kicks, handballs, contested and uncontested marks, marks inside 50, goals, behinds, contested and uncontested possessions, tackles, effective disposals, clangers and metres gained. All those football kinda things.

He’s marginally ahead with 10% more game time!

 

[The 747]

He’s marginally ahead with 10% more game time!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You're comparing the leading goal kicker for the past 5 years of the current Premier, whose biggest contribution isn't goals, with a fringe player journeyman and somehow think that the leading goal kicker being ahead in all other stats as well is evidence that they are equal.

This is just making me smile. It's so ridiculous.

Mihocek is a battler, marginally ahead in those stats I put up, while having 10% more TOG.