Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[sr36]

Well if just ignore the entire premise of this thread ever existing, being that Hawthorn started with a brand new midfield in 2023, bottom out…. Sure.

Maybe you should have kept blokes who get system to help teach your players, if 2 and a half years in your blokes still don't get Mitchells system.

 

[peetoo]

He wasn’t good enough regardless of how you want to spin it.

He has an outlier year, out of what, 9?
GC preferred Casboult over him! Now that’s telling you something.

His 1st coach who he spent 6 seasons under I’m sure knows him welll. So it’s hardly a surprise he was looking for a new club once Hardwick got the gig at GC.

The guy is VFL standard at best. The simple eye test indicates that. Nothing has changed that watching him this season. And I’d hate to break it to you but he isn’t the only key forward who has played in a team without another key forward.

And no, he isn’t anywhere near as good as Mihocek, who incidentally has been doing it for years without another key forward, nor is he anywhere near as good as McStay who played for years in a team with Daniher and Hipwood. The Hawks could only dream of having either workhorses who constantly compete to replace Chol.

You’re a funny guy.

Fair enough but I’m not exactly putting him in the Patton vickery Hartley bin just yet. All who got more love just cos they put on a hawks jumper.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Maybe you should have kept blokes who get system to help teach your players, if 2 and a half years in your blokes still don't get Mitchells system.

What a wank.

We’ve had a revolving door of injuries to our forwards. Lewis, Breust, Watson and now Chol, as well as another new face in Ginnivan.

 

[The 747]

Well if just ignore the entire premise of this thread ever existing, being that Hawthorn started with a brand new midfield in 2023, bottom out…. Sure.

The brand new midfield was at the instigation of the coach, hence the thread.

So if after 50 odd games the players are still learning the system, perhaps the coach isn't so good at the job of coaching players, despite all the spirited defence of said coach. Unless perhaps he is excellent at it but choosing not to?

It took McRae one preseason to teach his players the system, it took Chris Scott one preseason. It took Adam Kingsley about a third of a year.

 

[Xtreme]

If Hawthorn was tanking they would have let the Bulldogs win by 10 goals.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The brand new midfield was at the instigation of the coach, hence the thread.

So if after 50 odd games the players are still learning the system, perhaps the coach isn't so good at the job of coaching players, despite all the spirited defence of said coach. Unless perhaps he is excellent at but choosing not to?

It took McRae one preseason to teach his players the system, it took Chris Scott one preseason. It took Adam Kingsley about a third of a year.

Chol and Ginnivan have played 7 games together.
The two staples of our forward line heading into 2024, Lewis and Breust haven’t been there, so not only have they needed to try to build cohesion with new teammates and understand how we want to play, they’ve had to do so while playing different roles and with little support.

Stop pretending like that’s not going to have an impact.

 

[sr36]

Chol and Ginnivan have played 7 games together.
The two staples of our forward line heading into 2024, Lewis and Breust haven’t been there, so not only have they needed to try to build cohesion with new teammates and understand how we want to play, they’ve had to do so while playing different roles and with little support.

Stop pretending like that’s not going to have an impact.

Here's a stat for you: 5.

That's the number of players who've kicked more goals than Mihocek since his debut in the middle of 2018.

I'm pretty sure that Chol isn't one of
Hawkins, Riewoldt, Walker, Jeremy or Charlie Cameron.

But Mabior and Brody are pretty much the same standard. I've got a 7 game footy wire comparison that shows that Mihocek has been statistically better in those 7 games, but not enough for me to be able to separate them, what with a new system and Luke Bruest being injured...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Here's a stat for you: 5.

That's the number of players who've kicked more goals than Mihocek since his debut in the middle of 2018.

I'm pretty sure that Chol isn't one of
Hawkins, Riewoldt, Walker, Jeremy or Charlie Cameron.

But Mabior and Brody are pretty much the same standard. I've got a 7 game footy wire comparison that shows that Mihocek has been statistically better in those 7 games, but not enough for me to be able to separate them, what with a new system and Luke Bruest being injured...

Like I give a shit what he did in 2018 or any other year that Chol wasn’t on our list.

 

[The 747]

Chol and Ginnivan have played 7 games together.
The two staples of our forward line heading into 2024, Lewis and Breust haven’t been there, so not only have they needed to try to build cohesion with new teammates and understand how we want to play, they’ve had to do so while playing different roles and with little support.

Stop pretending like that’s not going to have an impact.

I am posing a legitimate question, no doubt you will come up with some dismissive post in response as you usually do.

Other coaches seem to be able to teach a system in a preseason, Mitchell has had three preseasons. Other teams have injuries and other teams recruit forwards in the off season.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I am posing a legitimate question, no doubt you will come up with some dismissive post in response as you usually do.

Other coaches seem to be able to teach a system in a preseason, Mitchell has had three preseasons. Other teams have injuries and other teams recruit forwards in the off season.

And I’m talking about a specific issue with our forward system, no doubt you will take comments out of context and post for the lols like you usually do.

We brought 3 new forwards into our forward half for the start of 2024. It was always going to take time for them to click.
We then lost 2 of our regulars within the first month, and had to ask players like Chol to take the number 1 forward mantle.
You can pretend like that would not have any impact at all if you want, but it just shows me that you are more interested in a “hurrr durr” moment than engaging the topic at hand.

 

[sr36]

Like I give a s**t what he did in 2018 or any other year that Chol wasn’t on our list.

Fair call.

That was a good time for a Hawk fan to stop caring; however, the arrival of Chol seems a strange time to start caring again.

P.S. I'm liking these footy wire comparisons. I've got a footy wire comparison that shows it's really hard to separate Brad Crouch from Joel Selwood, Brad Crouch just a little bit better...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Fair call.

That was a good time for a Hawk fan to stop caring; however, the arrival of Chol seems a strange time to start caring again.

P.S. I'm liking these footy wire comparisons. I've got a footy wire comparison that shows it's really hard to separate Brad Crouch from Joel Selwood, Brad Crouch just a little bit better...

Oh, you’re desperate.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Are we comparing a bloke pushed out by Gold Coast with the most important forward from the reigning Premier? Based on a 7 game sample size where the established forward has statistically outperformed the journeyman?

Billy Frampton won a flag too he must be a champ. You would probably say he would be first picked in our backline such is your hapless knowledge of our team. Keep trying though it's fun to watch.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Might surprise you to learn that both Mitchell and McRae have been coach of their clubs for the same period of time

What's been the player turnover for both sides in that period. Pretty simplistic way to look at things. Pies were ahead in their window compared to us before McRae got there he just freshened up the place and the rest is history.

 

[peetoo]

The brand new midfield was at the instigation of the coach, hence the thread.

So if after 50 odd games the players are still learning the system, perhaps the coach isn't so good at the job of coaching players, despite all the spirited defence of said coach. Unless perhaps he is excellent at it but choosing not to?

It took McRae one preseason to teach his players the system, it took Chris Scott one preseason. It took Adam Kingsley about a third of a year.

Scott hardly touched the system just wasn’t as much of a dick

 

[sr36]

Billy Frampton won a flag too he must be a champ. You would probably say he would be first picked in our backline such is your hapless knowledge of our team. Keep trying though it's fun to watch.

Look! We've got another one!

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

What didn’t say either of that. No one says Ward is better than Daicos and don’t try to say that I did. Greene was looking good at times and his type was Gunston but never said he was “great and tracking like him” you’re just twisting words.

But shows your knowledge. Same with you not knowing who is carrying what injury..

Not so much not knowing who was carrying an injury being delusional in thinking that we're making excuses for them playing rubbish to start the year. Like nobody has ever played through injury before apparently

 

[sr36]

Scott hardly touched the system just wasn’t as much of a dick

Cats are on top of the ladder with a midfield as young as the Hawks, playing a different brand of footy to either of the two Scott flags.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Look! We've got another one!

If Mihochek was such a star as you claim why have you built a game plan around him just competing in the air? I rekon Chol can do that once we're playing consistent footy just like any other half decent key forward. Don't get me wrong I like Brody and what he brings but come on he's reasonably limited as a player. If he's not crashing into packs at 100 miles an hour as is how you guys want him to play what sets him apart from other key forwards? Is he more talented than Chol? Dubious. More consistent yep but that comes with playing in a side that have been together for a while and know their system intimately. He wouldn't even be a 3rd tall in our great team of a decade ago if it boils down to it.

 

[sr36]

If Mihochek was such a star as you claim why have you built a game plan around him just competing in the air? I rekon Chol can do that once we're playing consistent footy just like any other half decent key forward. Don't get me wrong I like Brody and what he brings but come on he's reasonably limited as a player. If he's not crashing into packs at 100 miles an hour as is how you guys want him to play what sets him apart from other key forwards? Is he more talented than Chol? Dubious. More consistent yep but that comes with playing in a side that have been together for a while and know their system intimately. He wouldn't even be a 3rd tall in our great team of a decade ago if it boils down to it.

I'm not saying he is a star. I'm saying he is good player. He's top 10 in a good team. As reliable as they come, smart and provides a good contest. And is thus a long way ahead of Mabior Chol.

We've built a game plan designed to win finals in the modern game - and isolating and lacing out mark and kick full forwards as your main path to goal isn't what wins big games. There's too many numbers covering and too much pressure on the kicker.

Chol's a much better athlete, but currently nowhere near the footy IQ, nowhere near the ground level game, nowhere near the work ethic and doesn't clunk as many marks.

It's just a really odd comparison. It's a reliable consistent senior pro versus someone who has had a pretty flaky career to date without any significant heights. And it's a contested warrior in a contested role versus someone without a hunger for the contest.

 

[theiaofseed]

Ok I will bite. What is he then?

Third tall, unless you want to call players like Gunston and Fritsch KPF

Let me guess you class Stringer as a KPF as well.

 

[sr36]

Third tall, unless you want to call players like Gunston and Fritsch KPF

Let me guess you class Stringer as a KPF as well.

So who's Collingwood's first and second tall?

 

[theiaofseed]

So who's Collingwood's first and second tall?

Is it mandatory for clubs to have two?

 

[sr36]

Is it mandatory for clubs to have two?

It's pretty hard to avoid kicking long to aerial contests and having blokes whose role it is to compete in an aerial contest. He might not meet your tape measure requirements, but he plays the role of a kpf. And it's blokes like Weitering and May who match up on him.

 

[Yoda_]

Well if just ignore the entire premise of this thread ever existing, being that Hawthorn started with a brand new midfield in 2023, bottom out…. Sure.

2019 Peter Crimmins medalist James Worpell disagrees