Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[emuboy]

Again, I don't think Hawthorn are tanking, but something feels very wrong about this current strategy and while I hope I am wrong, I can see it ending badly.

Sides that completely overturn their list and rebuild generally have already slumped to a position at or near the bottom of the ladder, and they tend to retain their experienced and talented players to assist the young draftees to become better players, not trade so many of them away at once. A team of young inexperienced players getting flogged week in, week out may become demoralized or worse just come to accept losing.

History is filled with failed rebuilds and early draft picks that don't work out. Hawthorn can draft talented young players with early picks in the draft but may end up with a player who produces the bare minimum over many games, have off-field issues, has a brilliant first season or two but fades or succumbs to injury thereafter or recruit an interstate player who wants to return home after two seasons.

And a premiership in a few years seems to be the only acceptable outcome for Hawthorn in its current situation, but obviously it isn't that easy. If Hawthorn's rebuild stalls mid-ladder before the Hawks slump back to the bottom of the ladder, or the best the side can do is to scrape into the lower reaches of the finals for a couple of seasons then it will all have been for nothing, and another exhausting rebuild looms.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Again, I don't think Hawthorn are tanking, but something feels very wrong about this current strategy and while I hope I am wrong, I can see it ending badly.

Sides that completely overturn their list and rebuild generally have already slumped to a position at or near the bottom of the ladder, and they tend to retain their experienced and talented players to assist the young draftees to become better players, not trade so many of them away at once. A team of young inexperienced players getting flogged week in, week out may become demoralized or worse just come to accept losing.

History is filled with failed rebuilds and early draft picks that don't work out. Hawthorn can draft talented young players with early picks in the draft but may end up with a player who produces the bare minimum over many games, have off-field issues, has a brilliant first season or two but fades or succumbs to injury thereafter or recruit an interstate player who wants to return home after two seasons.

And a premiership in a few years seems to be the only acceptable outcome for Hawthorn in its current situation, but obviously it isn't that easy. If Hawthorn's rebuild stalls mid-ladder before the Hawks slump back to the bottom of the ladder, or the best the side can do is to scrape into the lower reaches of the finals for a couple of seasons then it will all have been for nothing, and another exhausting rebuild looms.

Is there an alternative word for a sports team that deliberately gets worse prior to the season?

I just hope their kids walk to better clubs when the opportunity arises.

 

[Back One Out]

Good luck relying on history.

History can teach us many things.


Hawthorn previously bottomed out almost 20 years ago in 2004-05


Here's the number of finals wins for each club since then...



24 Geelong
23
22
21
20
19 Sydney
18
17
16 Hawthorn
15 Collingwood
14 West Coast
13
12
11 Bulldogs
10 Richmond
9
8 Adelaide, Port Adelaide
7 St Kilda, Fremantle, Giants
6 Melbourne
5 North Melbourne
4
3 Brisbane
2 Carlton
1
0 Gold Coast, Essendon


See, what I learn from this stat is that Essendon fans are experts when it comes to barracking for a shitty club, so they're probably well-placed to give Hawthorn fans advice about how to cope when your footy team sucks. But they're probably not the best people to listen to when it comes to turning things around and being successful. More of a case-study of what not to do.

 

[Cursed Cat]

History can teach us many things.


Hawthorn previously bottomed out almost 20 years ago in 2004-05


Here's the number of finals wins for each club since then...



24 Geelong
23
22
21
20
19 Sydney
18
17
16 Hawthorn
15 Collingwood
14 West Coast
13
12
11 Bulldogs
10 Richmond
9
8 Adelaide, Port Adelaide
7 St Kilda, Fremantle
6 Melbourne
5 North Melbourne
4
3 Brisbane
2 Carlton
1
0 Gold Coast, Essendon


See, what I learn from this stat is that Essendon fans are experts when it comes to barracking for a shitty club, so they're probably well-placed to give Hawthorn fans advice about how to cope when your footy team sucks. But they're probably not the best people to listen to when it comes to turning things around and being successful. More of a case-study of what not to do.

why did you write out all the numbers in between the tallies?

 

[PhatBoy]

why did you write out all the numbers in between the tallies?

And wrote the Suns ‘tally’ but not the Giants’

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Does anyone seriously believe this?

We lost a couple of games of footy ffs. Other years we won them. Having a rivalry with teams you don’t like - and I’ll say right now my hatred of hawthorn comes primarily from their disgusting colours - doesn’t rely on having a bee in your bonnet about the result of a game 10-15 years ago. Every year we DONT win the comp, someone has either knocked us out or beaten us in a game that prevented us making finals.

I don’t understand why one would have to be more painful than another

Every Hawthorn poster that’s ever read a Whisker’s post knows that he’s carrying some serious baggage.

 

[PhatBoy]

Every Hawthorn poster that’s ever read a Whisker’s post knows that he’s carrying some serious baggage.

Really? Or he just doesn’t like your club?

I hate Essendon. I can’t remember the last time we even played them in something approaching a meaningful game. Derision of a club or team isn’t tantamount to some form of psychological damage courtesy of a loss to that club.

You sound like the Tigers fans

 

[boncer34]

History can teach us many things.


Hawthorn previously bottomed out almost 20 years ago in 2004-05


Here's the number of finals wins for each club since then...



24 Geelong
23
22
21
20
19 Sydney
18
17
16 Hawthorn
15 Collingwood
14 West Coast
13
12
11 Bulldogs
10 Richmond
9
8 Adelaide, Port Adelaide
7 St Kilda, Fremantle
6 Melbourne
5 North Melbourne
4
3 Brisbane
2 Carlton
1
0 Gold Coast, Essendon


See, what I learn from this stat is that Essendon fans are experts when it comes to barracking for a shitty club, so they're probably well-placed to give Hawthorn fans advice about how to cope when your footy team sucks. But they're probably not the best people to listen to when it comes to turning things around and being successful. More of a case-study of what not to do.

Who a person supports has no bearing on their football knowledge. As you displayed from 2013 - 2015.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Really? Or he just doesn’t like your club?

I hate Essendon. I can’t remember the last time we even played them in something approaching a meaningful game. Derision of a club or team isn’t tantamount to some form of psychological damage courtesy of a loss to that club.

You sound like the Tigers fans

Nah, I sound like someone that’s read a bunch of Whiskers posts over the years.

 

[Ashman23]

The colours suck but the tanking is despicable and flies in the face of what sport is all about.

Hate is a strong word but Hawthorn's attempts to game the system compromises the integrity of the competition; it's a cynical exercise that deserves nothing but contempt.

As for how much Hawthorn ''broke'' Geelong fans, only a Hawthorn fan could convince themselves of something so moronic.

For starters there have been other teams to have bested Geelong in big games, some like West Coast did it earlier and did it better.

Additionally, 2008 sucked but was quickly remedied by 2009, and I'm pretty sure most of us are quite sanguine given that we won another flag a mere 6 months ago.

To have taken the high road and not bottomed out, not tanked it up and not played dead makes it all the sweeter.

And yet, here you are, continually banging the drum in a thread discussing Hawthorn.

It's Ok, as Michael Stipe sang - Everybody hurts sometimes.

 

[Cursed Cat]

And yet, here you are, continually banging the drum in a thread discussing Hawthorn.

It's Ok, as Michael Stipe sang - Everybody hurts sometimes.

I really don't know what you mean?

The thread is about Hawthorn tanking. I don't like tanking and wish to express that fact - what with it being a public message board and all (kind of the point). I'd rather Hawthorn (or any club) on top of the ladder than playing dead and deliberately getting worse so that they can game the system.
But please by all means tell us all what a big Michael Stipe fan you are, its adding plenty to the discussion!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I really don't know what you mean?

The thread is about Hawthorn tanking. I don't like tanking and wish to express that fact - what with it being a public message board and all (kind of the point). I'd rather Hawthorn (or any club) on top of the ladder than playing dead and deliberately getting worse so that they can game the system.
But please by all means tell us all what a big Michael Stipe fan you are, its adding plenty to the discussion!

Where did you rate Hawthorn’s midfield last year? Was it last like the stats said?

 

[Cursed Cat]

Where did you rate Hawthorn’s midfield last year? Was it last like the stats said?

Here's a stat for you - Hawthorn upset eventual Premiers Geelong last year for one of their 8 wins.
Tom Mitchell had 33 touches and a goal that day.

 

[VinnieB]

History can teach us many things.


Hawthorn previously bottomed out almost 20 years ago in 2004-05


Here's the number of finals wins for each club since then...



24 Geelong
23
22
21
20
19 Sydney
18
17
16 Hawthorn
15 Collingwood
14 West Coast
13
12
11 Bulldogs
10 Richmond
9
8 Adelaide, Port Adelaide
7 St Kilda, Fremantle
6 Melbourne
5 North Melbourne
4
3 Brisbane
2 Carlton
1
0 Gold Coast, Essendon


See, what I learn from this stat is that Essendon fans are experts when it comes to barracking for a shitty club, so they're probably well-placed to give Hawthorn fans advice about how to cope when your footy team sucks. But they're probably not the best people to listen to when it comes to turning things around and being successful. More of a case-study of what not to do.

What sticks out here is Carlton and given how many number 1 draft picks they had over those years. Evident without quality senior players, you really need to get everything right. It wasn't as if their number 1 picks were all failures either.

 

[10571z]

I’m not convinced Mitchell is a good coach. Feels like he learnt out of a book and isn’t genuine.

Certainly doesn’t make me want to listen like Macrea, Hardwick, Lyon do

 

[VinnieB]

Here's a stat for you - Hawthorn upset eventual Premiers Geelong last year for one of their 8 wins.
Tom Mitchell had 33 touches and a goal that day.

I wonder if that was a game the coach actually played him in his rightful position?

 

[Cursed Cat]

I wonder if that was a game the coach actually played him in his rightful position?

Been massive for your mob already - killed us Rd 1; always been a good player. Actually killed us in a final when he was at Sydney, too.

 

[VinnieB]

I’m not convinced Mitchell is a good coach. Feels like he learnt out of a book and isn’t genuine.

Certainly doesn’t make me want to listen like Macrea, Hardwick, Lyon do

I think he is a good coach. I also think he would have a good relationship with his younger players.
I also think he is a little wet behind the ears or has a giant ego which could have serious repercussions for the club.

Having said that, maybe yr 3 of his strategy may be to recruit more senior players?

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

I think he is a good coach. I also think he would have a good relationship with his younger players.
I also think he is a little wet behind the ears or has a giant ego which could have serious repercussions for the club.

Having said that, maybe yr 3 of his strategy may be to recruit more senior players?

Has been apart of the Hawthorn system since 2021.

It will be interesting to see how long they stick with him. Sitting on their hands whilst Clarko was mucking about has led them to this point.

 

[Back One Out]

I’m not convinced Mitchell is a good coach. Feels like he learnt out of a book and isn’t genuine.
Certainly doesn’t make me want to listen like Macrea, Hardwick, Lyon do

Because what the weary coaches say in their press conferences 30 minutes after they've won or lost a game of football, or the cliched soundbites they give on dumb tv shows like On The Couch, AFL360 and Footy Classified is an accurate reflection of their ability to coach a football team and how they go about their business working 9-5 with their players and with their assistants.

Alastair Clarkson is the most successful coach of the modern era and possibly the LEAST impressive and LEAST interesting person to listen to in these tv viewer formats. The most interesting part of his interviews is the careful way he plays a dead bat to any controversial, provocative questions and the crafty manner in which he takes control of the interview and eats up his alloted 10 minutes of time by waffling on & on while giving nothing much away.

I see similar qualities in Mitchell, having learned from the master himself. Not as boring as Clarko. A bit more genial and personable. But equally adept at fending off controversy and wannabe headline makers.


I think Clarkson got his schtick from watching and studying NFL legend, Bill Belichick


Seriously, watch this guy... The greatest coach EVER.... Just listen to him...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Here's a stat for you - Hawthorn upset eventual Premiers Geelong last year for one of their 8 wins.
Tom Mitchell had 33 touches and a goal that day.

That’s nice, but were you one of the people saying we had the worst midfield in the comp?

 

[peetoo]

I think he is a good coach. I also think he would have a good relationship with his younger players.
I also think he is a little wet behind the ears or has a giant ego which could have serious repercussions for the club.

Having said that, maybe yr 3 of his strategy may be to recruit more senior players?

It is, I thought it was common knowledge. And before yr 3 too. Lynch last year. Meek amon etc this year.

Not you in particular, but a lot of drive bys haven't bothered to find out the detail in Hawthorns approach right now

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Has been apart of the Hawthorn system since 2021

Mitchell?

He’s been back at Hawthorn since 2019.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Mitchell?

He’s been back at Hawthorn since 2019.

Should’ve said, in a head coaching role.

 

[Cursed Cat]

That’s nice, but were you one of the people saying we had the worst midfield in the comp?

Honestly, I can't remember; I wasn't paying much attention to Hawthorn last year.