Primary Here we go... religion in state schools.

[Chief]

For some bizarre reason in Grade 1 my son's school is running a religion unit. Apparently this involves someone from a local Christian church showing up and telling Biblical stories to demonstrate morals.

Surely there are:

a) Religious schools to do this sort of thing if parents deem it that important?

b) Non-religious stories that can be told to demonstrate morality and good behaviour?

Why do state schools do this sort of thing? Free labour to keep the class occupied so the teacher can do other work?

Is it a bit out there to start kids on religion at 6 years old, when they have trouble telling fact from fiction?

If your child is at a state school, do they run these sorts of lessons?

BTW: I won't let my son attend - though up until now I've just explained that religious stories and people (Jesus etc) are just stories, "like Spiderman or Ben 10". I really don't want the work of unravelling it all for him at this age.

 

[emuboy]

Superintendant Chalmers wouldn't approve.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

For some bizarre reason in Grade 1 my son's school is running a religion unit. Apparently this involves someone from a local Christian church showing up and telling Biblical stories to demonstrate morals.

It sounds like a survey of world systems of thought, which obviously will include religions. It doesn't sounds like an attempt at evangelisation, which of course would be inappropriate ion a state school.


I don't see a problem. Religious ethics play some part, at the very least, in values formation and state schools sticking the fingers in their ears and closing their eyes and pretending religion doesn't exist is poor.

 

[stickman11]

It sounds like a survey of world systems of thought, which obviously will include religions. It doesn't sounds like an attempt at evangelisation, which of course would be inappropriate ion a state school.


I don't see a problem. Religious ethics play some part, at the very least, in values formation and state schools sticking the fingers in their ears and closing their eyes and pretending religion doesn't exist is poor.

Might teach them something. A little bit of spiritual guidance instead of growing up and running around like little thugs because they cannot hold their piss.

They might enjoy it Chief. Not everyone wants to grow up with a closed mind, plus their is always something one can take from it.

I am not religious but I wouldn't just ignore or ridicule someone elses beliefs just because I don't believe in it.

 

[Rocco_S]

Religious stories don't always have to preach about Jesus or christianity specifically and especially 'the word of Jesus.' The best way to demonstrate and teach values such as compassion, love, loyalty, sharing etc is through religious stories. They appeal to young children and have clear messages that aren't necessarily "you must put faith in God etc." I think that kids getting this message is the last thing your school wants.

I do agree though that as a parent you have a choice whether to send your child to hypothetically, Melbourne Primary School or say, Our Lady's of Melbourne Catholic Primary School and as such should be spared from such content.

But biblical stories and religion in general are not really as simple as "fact and fiction."

 

[Chief]

Religious stories don't always have to preach about Jesus or christianity specifically and especially 'the word of Jesus.' The best way to demonstrate and teach values such as compassion, love, loyalty, sharing etc is through religious stories.

Really? There is no better way to teach kids to value their friends and respect each other? None at all? Have you tried multiple ways?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Really? There is no better way to teach kids to value their friends and respect each other? None at all? Have you tried multiple ways?

I can guarantee they teach multiple perspectives of values- not just religious.

And when teaching the issue of morals/values, what sort of vaccuum must you inhabit to pretend that religious ethics don't play a role?

You have to distinguish between proselytising (bad in a state school) and teaching 'about' religious models of thought (no probs).

 

[Chief]

It sounds like a survey of world systems of thought,

Here's the problem - it isn't.

On further investigation, it's a Christian from a local church coming in and using up an hour of class time to teach Christianity. Parents have to specifically request their kids don't attend. Why should we be put in the situation where we have to get our kids taken out of the classroom and work against the school curriculum? It doesn't seem logical.

Googling some more...

In Queensland this stems from a 1910 referendum, when the specifically secular provisions of the Qld Education Act were removed and replaced with mandatory access to kids for religious organisations.

Apparently during the lesson the kids not attending are specifically, legally forbidden from engaging in any secular learning activities. Attempts by humanist organisations to enter schools under the Act have been fought by religious organisations, and rejected because they do not involve a supernatural being!

It is disappointing that the only way I knew it was on the cards was because there was a religion book on the book list.

My main issue is whether it is a good use of class time when parents can quite easily enrol their kids in scripture classes with the church of their choice. The other is the imposition of a religion-based morals program with state resources when there are a myriad of effective ways for kids to learn, for instance:

http://burandass.eq.edu.au/wcmss/index.php/curriculum-offerings-category/philosophy.html

These classes are taught by trained teachers, not by church volunteers.

At Buranda State School, we engage our students in ordered, rigorous philosophical discussions in order to improve their understanding of the world in which they live, and to make them better at thinking. We ask them to go beneath the surface of things and really examine what concepts mean.

Kids comments on these classes include "you can say what you think and no one puts you down ", "it helps us to respect others feelings", "you get used to listening" and "everyone is included in the discussion".

It sounds a lot more fun and informative for kids than receiving stories that tell them how to act.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Here's the problem - it isn't.

On further investigation, it's a Christian from a local church coming in and using up an hour of class time to teach Christianity. Parents have to specifically request their kids don't attend.

In Queensland this stems to 1910, when the specifically secular provisions of the Qld Education Act were removed and replaced with mandatory access to kids for religious organisations.

Apparently during the lesson the kids not attending are specifically, legally forbidden from engaging in any secular learning activities. Attempts by humanist organisations to enter schools under the Act have been fought by religious organisations, and rejected because they do not involve a supernatural being!

It is disappointing that the only way I knew it was on the cards was because there was a religion book on the book list.

My main issue is whether it is a good use of class time when parents can quite easily enrol their kids in scripture classes with the church of their choice. The other is the imposition of a religion-based morals program with state resources when there are a myriad of effective ways for kids to learn, for instance:

Yeah ok, you have a valid complaint then. Are other figures from other religious orders being invited along aswell? How aware are other parents?

 

[Chief]

I've asked a few and they've been tussling with the idea that it might be good for kids to learn about religion. I'm getting in touch with the ones I knock around with and talking about it.

You don't want to be the troublemaker or the zealot, ringing everyone up to get them involved in a crusade but it is important that they know what is involved when I know from conversations they're not into the God thing.

Trying to get a meeting with the Deputy of the school but, though the school is generally great, the Principal/Deputy don't return many emails, letters or phone calls. So again I'm facing a period of being the pushy parent to get a decent discussion.

The more I look at it, the more I resent having to go through all this. It's important but who wants to be the one to get in and argue with people who have much more experience at 'controlling' parents than I do at changing things that have been in place for a hundred years?

 

[Griffiness]

My (state) school offers CRE classes. It's half an hour once a week. Parents have to opt in. In my class (a 5/6), those who opt out do maths with me. The CRE teachers have NO idea about controlling a class, so the kids play up. It is values based, with the occasional bible story and the kids find it boring (so do I, to be honest).

I find that CRE doesn't seem to be all that tolerant or accepting of other faiths and beliefs. I would much rather my kids did comparative religion and learned about worlds, cultures and experiences other than what is in their backyard. Sadly, in a rural, government school the option isn't there, unless this old atheist takes it on.

 

[juddsentant517]

Superintendant Chalmers wouldn't approve.

when i grow up, i want to be a principle, or a caterpillar.

 

[Rocco_S]

On further investigation, it's a Christian from a local church coming in and using up an hour of class time to teach Christianity. Parents have to specifically request their kids don't attend. Why should we be put in the situation where we have to get our kids taken out of the classroom and work against the school curriculum? It doesn't seem logical.


It is disappointing that the only way I knew it was on the cards was because there was a religion book on the book list.

My main issue is whether it is a good use of class time when parents can quite easily enrol their kids in scripture classes with the church of their choice. The other is the imposition of a religion-based morals program with state resources when there are a myriad of effective ways for kids to learn, for instance:

I agree, there is no place for the teaching of scripture (of any religion) in state schools. When I first read (and commented) I thought it was a way of linking the school and different parts of its community, a way of mixing things up and a different approach of teaching and promoting important values and morals.

I'm currently studying primary education at a Catholic university and the religion stuff is very full on (for me anyway, who is not overly-religious whatsoever) and the last thing that you as a parent wants, is to have your child exposed to this (many parents avoid Catholic Primary School's because they feel their child may be 'brainwashed').

I do think however, that children at some stage (but definitely not grade 1) should be taught about religion in every school. Not scripture, but religion. How can we expect to respect different cultures and customs if we do not understand them?

It is good to see you're going about this the right way.

 

[stickman11]

Ok, lets burn the christian soldiers on a stake.

I surprised that kids learn anything in public schools these days except anti-social behavior.

They should have a choice, religion or ethics.

 

[Pie eyed]

It sounds like a survey of world systems of thought, which obviously will include religions. It doesn't sounds like an attempt at evangelisation, which of course would be inappropriate ion a state school.


I don't see a problem. Religious ethics play some part, at the very least, in values formation and state schools sticking the fingers in their ears and closing their eyes and pretending religion doesn't exist is poor.

Totally disagree.

Survey my arse.
Are they asking the kids what they believe?
Surely they will form an image of the world dominated by their immediate family and with the addition of Santa, the Tooth Fairy and The Wiggles.

Religion insidiously co-opts growing minds at every other opportunity, why would they not in this case?

When do I get a chance to instil all my ideas on them?

 

[Messenger]

The best way to demonstrate and teach values such as compassion, love, loyalty, sharing etc is through religious stories.

Um, no.

The best way to teach these values is to demonstrate them yourself, not using a fable. I refute completely the idea that religion has the market cornered on morals or "values education".

I would tend to think that if you wish your children to have that exposure, they can go to Sunday School. A Government run school is most certainly not.

I certainly had to do religious education when I was in primary school in the early/mid 80's, but the only opt out was for the Roman Catholic option.

 

[Spiritof82]

Is it a bit out there to start kids on religion at 6 years old, when they have trouble telling fact from fiction?

Its all fiction anyway, there's probably more truth in a Star Wars or Star Trek novel than in the crap that the religious nuts go on about.

 

[Chief]

That's my point. Presenting this stuff as real just messes with their heads. I doubt it will kill them or cause deep, lifelong mental scars but it doesn't make things any easier for anyone. You've got to have your kid removed while the superstition gets taught, and then help them negotiate the minefield of belief including petty arguments with other kids about the reality of God.

Jeez, my kid and his mate came to blows over whether there was a yellow lightsabre in Star Wars or not (there are, but only in the video games). Can't wait until it gets to the question of an all-powerful being that many adults say is real and watching you at all times.

 

[stickman11]

That's my point. Presenting this stuff as real just messes with their heads. I doubt it will kill them or cause deep, lifelong mental scars but it doesn't make things any easier for anyone. You've got to have your kid removed while the superstition gets taught, and then help them negotiate the minefield of belief including petty arguments with other kids about the reality of God.

Jeez, my kid and his mate came to blows over whether there was a yellow lightsabre in Star Wars or not (there are, but only in the video games). Can't wait until it gets to the question of an all-powerful being that many adults say is real and watching you at all times.

Quickness to anger is a highly heritable trait.

 

[Chief]

Genetic?

 

[Chief]

On further investigation it seems that the school is not following the rules:

#
Inform parent/s who omit/s notice of a religion, or notified religion is unavailable, of all programs of religious instruction provided at school.

*
Advise also of option to:
o
give written notice of consent to have their child participate in a religious instruction program they nominate when they are not a member
o
have their child not participate.

I've had to prod and question to get information. Will be talking to the Deputy Head again about their lack of notification.

 

[Chief]

Yeah ok, you have a valid complaint then. Are other figures from other religious orders being invited along aswell? How aware are other parents?

Apparently they used to have a range of people come in, but now it is just someone from the Anglican Church coming in to read Bible stories and sing religious songs.

I'm getting beyond annoyed now. It seems the obstruction from the school is not just passive organisational obstruction and social pressure to conform, but that the school doesn't seem to be complying with requirements for notification and consent - http://education.qld.gov.au/strategic/eppr/schools/scmpr021/

 

[Chief]

Just rang the Education Department and apparently the school is doing the whole thing (the whole thing!) incorrectly. Not following the rules, not sending home the right forms, not getting consent where required. They DoE were even surprised they had the religion book on the kids book list.

 

[catswhiskers2007]

Leading a government school that offers CRE to our kids- I do not have a choice whether it is run in my school or not, niether do the parents unless they 'opt out' rather than 'in' under the DEECD guidelines. Teachers do not want it as it takes time away from teaching our kids literacy and numeracy- although some 'nice' things are reinforced, the students spend most of their time colouring in stained glass windows. Actually creates more parent complaints than most things we do (!!), but almost impossible to get rid of...

 

[Chief]

It would take legislative change to remove it in Queensland.

In any case I've sent along a letter with the issues raised by the DoE, and the deputy has responded that the principal is now dealing with it etc etc.

Not sure when they'll get around to fulfilling their notification and consent obligations. I'm not holding my breath. They said RE lessons have been suspended until they get all the correct consent forms in but I know the classes are still happening. Anyway I've informed them, ball is in their court.