If Heeney?

[BF Tiger]

All of the above.

Kudos to Richmond, they peaked at the right time.

Despite scraping into the top 4 in all of their premiership years, who were their strongest opposition?

The GWS, Geelong and Collingwood teams of the time? The latter two teams fielding solid though not outstanding teams that were far inferior to the better teams they have fielded since the turn of the century.

Scraping in to top four? I think you’ve mis-remembered that. Quick re-cap for you Fadgey.

2017 - finished 1/2 game behind 1st and 2nd. Defeated 2nd, 4th and 1st in finals. Dusty nailed all three finals in the best individual season ever, where he scooped every single award.

2019 - separated only by % from minor premiers. Defeated 2nd and 1st in finals, before winning the flag against 6th. Dusty kills all three finals, kicking 6 goals against Brisbane, inspiring a second half comeback v Geelong and winning the Norm Smith against GWS.

2020 - finished 3rd, 1.5 games behind two teams who played at home for most of the year. Best performed “hub” team in the league. Defeated 1st, 4th and 6th in finals on way to B2B and dynasty-confirming flag. Dusty steps up after a poor first final, going on to poll 28 of a possible 30 coaches votes in three winning finals.

So Dusty did what he had to do, regardless how good the opposition were.

One flag 2010 Collingwood a better side? Debatable at best, but most footy fans would take 3 flags over 1 as prima facie evidence that they weren’t. 2023 Collingwood is arguably the weakest premiership this century, and not even qualifying for 2024 finals only adds to that argument. So they’re definitely not a better team.

Happy to concede on Geelong 2007-2011. Amazing team. Benchmark. Happy to be compared to such a great side who also had a three flag dynasty (in short time, not 34 years like the Magpies).

 

[windyhill]

Hahaha I’m not, there are many players up for debate. McLeod 98 Ablett 89 Matera 92 Martin 19 Cable 77 Bell 99 Hird 2000 Hodge 15 just to name a few.

Long.’93.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I posted somewhere else Heeney has back to back perfect 10 coaches votes in his 2 x 2024 finals. This has only been done once before, by Dustin Martin in the Preliminary and Grand Finals of 2020.

Heeney's Player Ratings in the 2 games were also very high. He had the highest rating in the game by a big margin in the QF, and the 4th highest rating in the game in the PF.

If he picked up another 10 coaches votes(without the loading) he would be on his own on that score, nobody has ever done that. Martin came closest with 8, 10, 10 in his last 3 finals in 2020. His Player Ratings were off the scale in those 3 games, all 3 of them rating comfortably above Heeney's best effort in the current finals series.

If Heeney say had another BOG and won the Norm Smith, his finals series and season would be right up there compared to anything in my recollection. He is a bit unique among stars with an excellent balance between attacking and defensive elements to his game. He has been unfairly maligned on these pages for years due to not being given sufficient credit for the balance in his game, I would love to see him finish off one of the all time great finals series.

 

[Fastback]

Ablett '89 was pretty special, after an ordinary first final by Geel he basically got them going after that to almost pinch it.

 

[RUNVS]

I posted somewhere else Heeney has back to back perfect 10 coaches votes in his 2 x 2024 finals. This has only been done once before, by Dustin Martin in the Preliminary and Grand Finals of 2020.

Heeney is better looking than Martin anyway.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Heeney is better looking than Martin anyway.

Funny how people aren't lined up 50 deep to get Heeney cuts then.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Ablett '89 was pretty special, after an ordinary first final by Geel he basically got them going after that to almost pinch it.

Not winning the flag disqualified it from top spot imo.

There is something special in winning it for your team.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Heeney is better looking than Martin anyway.

Jokes aside, Dusty looks like the sort of player that could be a GOAT. Tough af with the tatts and cut.

 

[Lingsface]

Jokes aside, Dusty looks like the sort of player that could be a GOAT. Tough af with the tatts and cut.

Very nice typing for one hand!

 

[RUNVS]

Jokes aside, Dusty looks like the sort of player that could be a GOAT. Tough af with the tatts and cut.

He looks like he is involved in organised crime. Heeney looks like he spends 90% of his time at the beach with a surfboard on hand.

 

[T2B_]

Yes.

 

[BF Tiger]

He looks like he is involved in organised crime. Heeney looks like he spends 90% of his time at the beach with a surfboard on hand.

Accurately describes neither of them?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

People tend to sleep on Sam Mitchell being a finals colossus. His 2015 series is pretty hard to beat...

QF - 35 disposals (next best on ground = 26), 10 clearances (next best on ground = 6), 655 m gained, 7 score involvements (6 of them score launches), etc, etc. Easily best on ground despite the loss.
SF - 33 disposals, 14 contested, 4, clearances, 6 score involvements, etc, etc. Best mid on the ground with only Breust (who kicked 6 challenging for BOG honours)
PF - 33 disposals (next best on ground = 27), 15 contested, 6 marks, 5 clearances, 5 score involvements. Clear best on ground.
GF - 34 disposals (#1), 6 clearances, 4 tackles. Runner up in the Norm Smith, with half the voters having him best on. A bit unlucky to miss out to Rioli's 18 disposal, 2 goal game (who was also great).

It's not often a player, who uses it like Mitchell did, has the most ball of either team in every single final (most of the time comfortably). Mitchell was obviously awarded best finals player at the premier for the 2nd year running and this series represents the most disposals in a finals series by a player ever by some margin. The Gary Ayers medal was unfortunately introduced the following year (which is very Sam Mitchell, given he was unluckily runner up in the Norm Smith twice, runner up in the Brownlow twice and very unlucky with AA selection at times) but had it been in place, I think it is likely Mitchell would comfortably hold the votes record based on this series.

 

[T2B_]

People tend to sleep on Sam Mitchell being a finals colossus. His 2015 series is pretty hard to beat...

QF - 35 disposals (next best on ground = 26), 10 clearances (next best on ground = 6), 655 m gained, 7 score involvements (6 of them score launches), etc, etc. Easily best on ground despite the loss.
SF - 33 disposals, 14 contested, 4, clearances, 6 score involvements, etc, etc. Best mid on the ground with only Breust (who kicked 6 challenging for BOG honours)
PF - 33 disposals (next best on ground = 27), 15 contested, 6 marks, 5 clearances, 8 score involvements. Clear best on ground.
GF - 34 disposals (#1), 6 clearances, 4 tackles. Runner up in the Norm Smith, with half the voters having him best on. A bit unlucky to miss out to Rioli's 18 disposal, 2 goal game (who was also great).

It's not often a player, who uses it like Mitchell did, has the most ball of either team in every single final (most of the time comfortably). Mitchell was obviously awarded best finals player at the premier for the 2nd year running and this series represents the most disposals in a finals series by a player ever by some margin. The Gary Ayers medal was unfortunately introduced the following year (which is very Sam Mitchell, given he was unluckily runner up in the Norm Smith twice, runner up in the Brownlow twice and very unlucky with AA selection at times) but had it been in place, I think it is likely Mitchell would comfortably hold the votes record based on this series.

I think people tend to sleep on him in general at times. Short slow stubby bloke but amazing career and ball user.

You have to love true footballers who defy modern conventions.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Long.’93.

Exactly who I was thinking of when Heeney rescued them in the QF v GWS

 

[Lingsface]

I know this is 2 seasons but
Ryan Okeefe
2011
EF- 21 and 4
PF-17 and 3
2012
QF
37 8 tackles 9 clearances
PF 34 1 goal 11 tackles 9 clearances
GF- 28 15 tackles 7 clearances

That is a great run of back to back games

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I know this is 2 seasons but
Ryan Okeefe
2011
EF- 21 and 4
PF-17 and 3
2012
QF
37 8 tackles 9 clearances
PF 34 1 goal 11 tackles 9 clearances
GF- 28 15 tackles 7 clearances

That is a great run of back to back games

Sydney didn't play a prelim in '11. I think you mean the SF - and yes, a fantastic run of games by O'Keefe

If we are doing 2 seasons, I'd like to add Mitchell 2014 series to his 2015 one above...

QF - 36 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 goal assists with a dedicated tagger (clear BOG)
PF - 26 disposals, 4 clearances, 8 tackles whilst tagged by Kane Cornes (Throw a blanket over Hodge, Mitchell, Boak and Gray. Minor votes probably)
GF - 33 disposals, 7 clearances, 9 tackles. Unlucky runner up in Norm Smith for a game that would have won it nearly any other year.

26 touches and 8 tackles (with a tagger) was his 'worst' performance in 7 finals over 2 years.

 

[Lingsface]

Sydney didn't play a prelim in '11. I think you mean the SF - and yes, a fantastic run of games by O'Keefe

If we are doing 2 seasons, I'd like to add Mitchell 2014 series to his 2015 one above...

QF - 36 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 goal assists with a dedicated tagger (clear BOG)
PF - 26 disposals, 4 clearances, 8 tackles whilst tagged by Kane Cornes (Throw a blanket over Hodge, Mitchell, Boak and Gray. Minor votes probably)
GF - 33 disposals, 7 clearances, 9 tackles. Unlucky runner up in Norm Smith for a game that would have won it nearly any other year.

26 touches and 8 tackles (with a tagger) was his 'worst' performance in 7 finals over 2 years.

Huge!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

People tend to sleep on Sam Mitchell being a finals colossus. His 2015 series is pretty hard to beat...

QF - 35 disposals (next best on ground = 26), 10 clearances (next best on ground = 6), 655 m gained, 7 score involvements (6 of them score launches), etc, etc. Easily best on ground despite the loss.
SF - 33 disposals, 14 contested, 4, clearances, 6 score involvements, etc, etc. Best mid on the ground with only Breust (who kicked 6 challenging for BOG honours)
PF - 33 disposals (next best on ground = 27), 15 contested, 6 marks, 5 clearances, 8 score involvements. Clear best on ground.
GF - 34 disposals (#1), 6 clearances, 4 tackles. Runner up in the Norm Smith, with half the voters having him best on. A bit unlucky to miss out to Rioli's 18 disposal, 2 goal game (who was also great).

It's not often a player, who uses it like Mitchell did, has the most ball of either team in every single final (most of the time comfortably). Mitchell was obviously awarded best finals player at the premier for the 2nd year running and this series represents the most disposals in a finals series by a player ever by some margin. The Gary Ayers medal was unfortunately introduced the following year (which is very Sam Mitchell, given he was unluckily runner up in the Norm Smith twice, runner up in the Brownlow twice and very unlucky with AA selection at times) but had it been in place, I think it is likely Mitchell would comfortably hold the votes record based on this series.

Mitchell clearly had a really strong finals series there. It is indeed a shame we don't have Coaches Votes available before 2016.

Mitchell's Player Ratings however, are available for those matches. He rated 2nd, 4th, 5th and 20th highest in the 4 finals. His highest Player Rating in any of those matches was 18.4. The others were 17.0, 16.7, and in the PF match you had him clear BOG...9.8.

In Heeney's 2 finals this season he has rated BOG v GWS 24.3 and 4th BOG 18.1 v Port.

A somewhat comparable finals series to Mitchell's was Josh Kennedy in 2016. His ratings were:

QF 2nd BOG 19.8
SF 7th BOG 18.0
PF 7.3
GF 2nd BOG 23.8

He won the Ayres Medal with 18 votes from the 4 finals. Interestingly, Heeney was 3rd that year on 15 votes.

I definitely think Heeney's 2024 finals series is shaping to be on a different type of level to those really good finals series from the likes of Kennedy and Mitchell.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Going back a way, but Simon Black in 2003 was pretty epic.

QF: 26 touches, 5 tackles, 4 clearances (Buckley was the star here but Black has arguments for next best with his mate Lappin).
SF: 29 touches, 9 inside 50's, 4 clearances and a goal (He, Lynch (6 goals) and Lappin again the best players).
PF: 21 touches and a goal (reads like only a solid game but it was an even performance, with Lappin's 23 possessions the most on the ground)
GF: 39 touches, 9 clearances, 9 tackles, 1 goal, 1 assist. One of the greatest Grand Final performances of all time (and held the GF disposal record until Petracca matched it in 2021).

Interestingly, I think this is the 2nd most prolific finals series by a player ever at 116 (21 behind the aforementioned Mitchell '15 series.)

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Mitchell clearly had a really strong finals series there. It is indeed a shame we don't have Coaches Votes available before 2016.

Mitchell's Player Ratings however, are available for those matches. He rated 2nd, 4th, 5th and 20th highest in the 4 finals. His highest Player Rating in any of those matches was 18.4. The others were 17.0, 16.7, and in the PF match you had him clear BOG...9.8.

In Heeney's 2 finals this season he has rated BOG v GWS 24.3 and 4th BOG 18.1 v Port.

A somewhat comparable finals series to mitchell's was Josh Kennedy in 2016. His ratings were:

QF 2nd BOG 19.8
SF 7th BOG 18.0
PF 7.3
GF 2nd BOG 23.8

He won the Ayres Medal with 18 votes from the 4 finals. Interestingly, Heeney was 3rd that year on 15 votes.

I definitely think Heeney's 2024 finals series is shaping to be on a different type of level to those really good finals series from the likes of Kennedy and Mitchell.

Heeney is a different kind of player to a Mitchell or a Kennedy.

I personally have no trust for the player ratings (as the PF example you shared demonstrates well).

This year, for example, the player ratings have Marc Pittonet in the top 25 players in the AFL! Meanwhile, it has Lachie Whitfield (who was rightfully AA) at 180th! It has Nick Bryan (Ess) rated ahead of Lachie Whitfield, Sam Taylor (161st), Joe Daniher (177th), etc.

Ethan Phillips (1 game, dropped, likely delisted) has a higher average rating than Steven May.

Sam Darcy (178th) is rated below Toby Conway and Ben Miller (and yes, Nick Bryan).

Charlie Cameron (who has 43 goals this season) is not rated in the top 370 players in the comp!

Lucky dip out of a hat would probably give as reliable results as player ratings.

 

[Lingsface]

Heeney is a different kind of player to a Mitchell or a Kennedy.

I personally have no trust for the player ratings (as the PF example you shared demonstrates well).

This year, for example, the player ratings have Marc Pittonet in the top 25 players in the AFL! Meanwhile, it has Lachie Whitfield (who was rightfully AA) at 180th! It has Nick Bryan (Ess) rated ahead of Lachie Whitfield, Sam Taylor (161st), Joe Daniher (177th), etc.

Ethan Phillips (1 game, dropped, likely delisted) has a higher average rating than Steven May.

Sam Darcy (178th) is rated below Toby Conway and Ben Miller (and yes, Nick Bryan).

Charlie Cameron (who has 43 goals this season) is not rated in the top 370 players in the comp!

Lucky dip out of a hat would probably give as reliable results as player ratings.

Cameron also has the most finals goals of current players now.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Heeney is a different kind of player to a Mitchell or a Kennedy.

I personally have no trust for the player ratings (as the PF example you shared demonstrates well).

This year, for example, the player ratings have Marc Pittonet in the top 25 players in the AFL! Meanwhile, it has Lachie Whitfield (who was rightfully AA) at 180th! It has Nick Bryan (Ess) rated ahead of Lachie Whitfield, Sam Taylor (161st), Joe Daniher (177th), etc.

Ethan Phillips (1 game, dropped, likely delisted) has a higher average rating than Steven May.

Sam Darcy (178th) is rated below Toby Conway and Ben Miller (and yes, Nick Bryan).

Charlie Cameron (who has 43 goals this season) is not rated in the top 370 players in the comp!

Lucky dip out of a hat would probably give as reliable results as player ratings.

Would it? These are the top 10 rated players by average rating in 2024...




That doesn't look like a lucky dip to me.

In the match you gave Mitchell "clear BOG" he had 35 disposals gaining 340m, but went at 65% efficiency. 22 of his disposals were uncontested. He had 1 goal assist, no goals and just 5 score involvements. Only 3 tackles and 16 pressure acts. A third of his disposals were "ineffective" and the 2/3rds that were effective yielded only 5 score involvements, so not very damaging.

The Player Ratings are based on what has actually taken place, not what is imagined.

 

[RUNVS]

Would it? These are the top 10 rated players by average rating in 2024...

View attachment 2122541

That doesn't look like a lucy dip to me.

In the match you gave Mitchell "clear BOG" he had 35 disposals gaining 340m, but went at 65% efficiency. 22 of his disposals were uncontested. He had 1 goal assist, no goals and just 5 score involvements. Only 3 tackles and 16 pressure acts. A third of his disposals were "ineffective" and the 2/3rds that were effective yielded only 5 score involvements, so not very damaging.

The Player Ratings are based on what has actually taken place, not what is imagined.

That is better than the Brownlow in terms of spread and also the type of players in it, but it is still too heavily focused on midfielders. Champion Data as well need to get better at rating the forwards and defenders too.

Still, I take this list over the 2024 Brownlow list and 2024 Coaches Association list.

 

[Lingsface]

Would it? These are the top 10 rated players by average rating in 2024...


View attachment 2122541

That doesn't look like a lucy dip to me.

In the match you gave Mitchell "clear BOG" he had 35 disposals gaining 340m, but went at 65% efficiency. 22 of his disposals were uncontested. He had 1 goal assist, no goals and just 5 score involvements. Only 3 tackles and 16 pressure acts. A third of his disposals were "ineffective" and the 2/3rds that were effective yielded only 5 score involvements, so not very damaging.

The Player Ratings are based on what has actually taken place, not what is imagined.

Petracca and Rankine 13 and 15 games, averages should be dismissed in comparison.