Team Mgmt. Makeup of our team II - Strengths & deficiencies, player development

[fairbump_playon]

It’s pretty rare all your young talent just simultaneously fire in the one season. Durham, Martin and Caldwell are the finds this season. Makes sense given they have all had 2-3 season continuity and are entering their primes at 23 yo.

Next season is critical for Perkins, Cox, Hobbs, Reid - they enter that age bracket and it’s no longer enough to show glimpses.

Davey x2, Tsatas and Wanganeen need to show more glimpses at AFL level next season.

Feel like the development has been good this year. But pretty nervous about Daveysx2 and Hobbs in particular. They have really stalled.

I think Hobbs is more likely to forge a career than the Daveys though they both have higher upside.

Hobbs needs to have a long hard look at himself, start giving the first option and make himself a physical brute while still being able to spread.

The Daveys may or may not want to do “whatever it takes”

 

[ant555]

Redman, Ridley, Martin are all good kicks. I think it is a fallacy we are poor from half back. yes, we have some average kicks but overall, we should be better at getting the ball from half back

I can tell you for a fact that Scott has slowed the game plan down a bit to try and avoid so many turnovers coming from the back half. It is not a fallacy.

 

[FlyingV]

I think Hobbs is more likely to forge a career than the Daveys though they both have higher upside.

Hobbs needs to have a long hard look at himself, start giving the first option and make himself a physical brute while still being able to spread.

The Daveys may or may not want to do “whatever it takes”

The Daveys need more time but I’m just not seeing the hunger or explosive pace. Being harsh on J.Davey with the injuries so probs more Alwyn concerns atm.

I agree re Hobbs more likely to forge a career.

Hobbs stagnation with his inside work concerns me, the lack of spacial awareness in particular. He doesn’t have the nuance inside other small inside mids have that I have seen; ie an expert at extracting frees, knowing when to trap the ball in to halt forward momentum or absorbing pressure and dishing off. If he’s not an expert inside the contest, what is his differentiator? He’s not quick, not great disposal, he’s not going to be as big or explosive as other inside mids… I hope I’m wrong and he can become a Adams type from Coll/Syd but there’s a long way to go.

 

[bombreys]

People felt the same way about Carlton about halfway through last season. Sometimes you just need things to click

Carlton had all the pieces though - and were really strong on paper.

I could see GWS suddenly figuring it out - even WB. We simply don’t have the personnel though

 

[Yoda_]

I desperately want more marking power in the front half.


Beter ball users across the ground should also be a high priority

 

[jdstorm]

Carlton had all the pieces though - and were really strong on paper.

I could see GWS suddenly figuring it out - even WB. We simply don’t have the personnel though

I’d say that championship teams typically have 6 AA quality players with roughly 2 on each line and 2-3 viable goal threats in the front half.

Backs: McKay Ridley Redman and Martin have been or are capable of that level

Mids: Merrett and Parish have both made it and Durham looks like he might get there in the future.

Forwards: Kyle Langford has made it and was near the top of the Coleman charts for a while. Wright is also actually pretty good close to goal on a dry day.

Then there’s your past it guys like Sheil and Stringer who can be good at times.


So why aren’t they winning?

At the start of the year (with Parish and Perkins as the missing piece) they were a really good defensive team who played contested footy and scored just enough points from stoppage to beat bad teams. Awful transition team

Since then the defence has dropped away and contested work has dropped away (better with Sheil in but still worse) and they can’t score in transition. (While playing Nick Martin who’s a 20+ goal a season wing on non finals teams in a position where he’s never going to get scoring opportunities.

It pretty wild we are such a bad transition team after 18 weeks of work since we have 3 good wings (Martin, Dursma and Jones) and 3 decent or better midfield users (Merrett, Caldwell, Durham)

Yet here we are. I think we’ve found some good things this year, and have hung with the best sides in a we should have beaten them if we could play transition football and execute reliable forward pressure. If it clicks (and it might be too late for that) I wouldn’t want to play us on our best day

 

[yodellinhank]

I think we should target plodders, vanilla types and players who we aren't sure what they are but maybe we could turn them into something they're nots. Grab a couple of injury prones just to balance things out a little.

Does anyone know if it's bolters this draft, or mainly sliders and if there's any jets?

 

[bombreys]

I’d say that championship teams typically have 6 AA quality players with roughly 2 on each line and 2-3 viable goal threats in the front half.

Backs: McKay Ridley Redman and Martin have been or are capable of that level

Mids: Merrett and Parish have both made it and Durham looks like he might get there in the future.

Forwards: Kyle Langford has made it and was near the top of the Coleman charts for a while. Wright is also actually pretty good close to goal on a dry day.

Then there’s your past it guys like Sheil and Stringer who can be good at times.


So why aren’t they winning?

At the start of the year (with Parish and Perkins as the missing piece) they were a really good defensive team who played contested footy and scored just enough points from stoppage to beat bad teams. Awful transition team

Since then the defence has dropped away and contested work has dropped away (better with Sheil in but still worse) and they can’t score in transition. (While playing Nick Martin who’s a 20+ goal a season wing on non finals teams in a position where he’s never going to get scoring opportunities.

It pretty wild we are such a bad transition team after 18 weeks of work since we have 3 good wings (Martin, Dursma and Jones) and 3 decent or better midfield users (Merrett, Caldwell, Durham)

Yet here we are. I think we’ve found some good things this year, and have hung with the best sides in a we should have beaten them if we could play transition football and execute reliable forward pressure. If it clicks (and it might be too late for that) I wouldn’t want to play us on our best day

Fair enough, I just don’t rate our list as highly as you do by the sounds of it.

I feel like the Blues top dozen or so players are far, far superior to ours.

 

[ant555]

I desperately want more marking power in the front half.


Beter ball users across the ground should also be a high priority

Over the next two or so years .
Marking ability. KPF and Ruck . Any midfielders or small forwards also need to be above average marking wise .
Crumbing small forward.
Half back with speed and medium size with good skills.
Players in any positions who can hold their own at ground level.
Some we could have but need development but via draft / FA we need to be bringing in 12 or so different options and in the next two years.

 

[ant555]

I’d say that championship teams typically have 6 AA quality players with roughly 2 on each line and 2-3 viable goal threats in the front half.

Backs: McKay Ridley Redman and Martin have been or are capable of that level

Mids: Merrett and Parish have both made it and Durham looks like he might get there in the future.

Forwards: Kyle Langford has made it and was near the top of the Coleman charts for a while. Wright is also actually pretty good close to goal on a dry day.

Then there’s your past it guys like Sheil and Stringer who can be good at times.


So why aren’t they winning?

At the start of the year (with Parish and Perkins as the missing piece) they were a really good defensive team who played contested footy and scored just enough points from stoppage to beat bad teams. Awful transition team

Since then the defence has dropped away and contested work has dropped away (better with Sheil in but still worse) and they can’t score in transition. (While playing Nick Martin who’s a 20+ goal a season wing on non finals teams in a position where he’s never going to get scoring opportunities.

It pretty wild we are such a bad transition team after 18 weeks of work since we have 3 good wings (Martin, Dursma and Jones) and 3 decent or better midfield users (Merrett, Caldwell, Durham)

Yet here we are. I think we’ve found some good things this year, and have hung with the best sides in a we should have beaten them if we could play transition football and execute reliable forward pressure. If it clicks (and it might be too late for that) I wouldn’t want to play us on our best day

Carlton are still poor as far as defending the ground but they have a midfield that is very good contested wise with some decent outside speed now.
They have two KPF who are a mile in front of anything we have .
A young ruck who is also a mile in front of ours.
In defence they are a bit thin but Weiterng is in the best few KPD in the comp and we would die for Saads speed.
I think they had more key planks n place compared to us .

 

[yodellinhank]

Carlton are still poor as far as defending the ground but they have a midfield that is very good contested wise with some decent outside speed now.
They have two KPF who are a mile in front of anything we have .
A young ruck who is also a mile in front of ours.
In defence they are a bit thin but Weiterng is in the best few KPD in the comp and we would die for Saads speed.
I think they had more key planks n place compared to us .

Who needs Saad's pace when you have Bruce Reid.

 

[Jobe Watson]

• A crumbling, goal-kicking small forward.
• A mature age tall/medium defender.
• A skilful half-back with a penetrating kick.

I don't care where they come from, National Draft, Free Agency, Langwarrin u18s, whatever. This is what we need.

 

[Zach Package]

2020 ND draft is looking like a wipeout. Two delisted. One can not get on the park. One has played 70 games and still can not work out how to play and another who has played 40 games and looks like a fish out of water most of the time.

Perkins was 45 games in and averaging 17 odd touches and most of a goal a game as a walking score involvement that impacted with every touch. Seat at the 20 disposals and a goal a game table with Heeney, Bont and Warner was being dusted off for him and reserved with a velvet rope.

Then Scott decided that he wanted him to do the donkey work on the defensive side of the stoppage and he has stagnated and gone backwards because they’ve given him an awful role.

Is that his fault, or is that our fault?

I’ll give you the hot tip, we’ve ****ed that up royally.

 

[jdstorm]

Fair enough, I just don’t rate our list as highly as you do by the sounds of it.

I feel like the Blues top dozen or so players are far, far superior to ours.

I just think the bar for what is a championship list isn’t as high as big footy thinks it is.

Carlton are still poor as far as defending the ground but they have a midfield that is very good contested wise with some decent outside speed now.
They have two KPF who are a mile in front of anything we have .
A young ruck who is also a mile in front of ours.
In defence they are a bit thin but Weiterng is in the best few KPD in the comp and we would die for Saads speed.
I think they had more key planks n place compared to us .

I think different structures and gamestyles can be successful.

Collingwood won a flag with their best forwards being smalls last year. I think reliability and ability to consistently generate advantage against a direct opponent is what sets aside your star players

I’m not bothered by height just as long as teams have enough of it to be competitive vs direct opponents.

Our forward line not working is a big issue but in practice I think you should be able to build a good forward line around Langford Perkins Gresham Wright and Guelfi

 

[ant555]

I just think the bar for what is a championship list isn’t as high as big footy thinks it is.



I think different structures and gamestyles can be successful.

Collingwood won a flag with their best forwards being smalls last year. I think reliability and ability to consistently generate advantage against a direct opponent is what sets aside your star players

I’m not bothered by height just as long as teams have enough of it to be competitive vs direct opponents.

Our forward line not working is a big issue but in practice I think you should be able to build a good forward line around Langford Perkins Gresham Wright and Guelfi

I think we have a serious cultural issue to fix first and I do not think you can rely on Wright who has had 2 good seasons out of 7 .

 

[ant555]

Perkins was 45 games in and averaging 17 odd touches and most of a goal a game as a walking score involvement that impacted with every touch. Seat at the 20 disposals and a goal a game table with Heeney, Bont and Warner was being dusted off for him and reserved with a velvet rope.

Then Scott decided that he wanted him to do the donkey work on the defensive side of the stoppage and he has stagnated and gone backwards because they’ve given him an awful role.

Is that his fault, or is that our fault?

I’ll give you the hot tip, we’ve ****ed that up royally.

I will give you a tip . He has no idea what to do defensively and is not a smart player.

 

[Zach Package]

I will give you a tip . He has no idea what to do defensively and is not a smart player.

My dog watches the first quarter of the pies game and could have told you that, I’m not arguing regarding the defensive stuff.

Scott has given him a role that absolutely and completely neuters his obvious strengths and exposes his weaknesses.

A tour de force in shit coaching.

 

[jdstorm]

I think we have a serious cultural issue to fix first and I do not think you can rely on Wright who has had 2 good seasons out of 7 .

I think reliability is in general a fluid concept.

Some players are load bearing in the team structure and reliability is incredibly Important and others more window dressing with a lower baseline reliability requirement .

I wouldn’t want Wright to be my best forward but as a number 3/4 I think he’s pretty good and if a part of a successful structure I think his weaknesses can be covered

For instance I think if he played for Melbourne as a 80/20 FF/Ruck he’d probably comfortably kick 50+ goals

Is Essendon’s current list a good fit for him? Honestly probably not and that tends to deflate his value

 

[ant555]

My dog watches the first quarter of the pies game and could have told you that, I’m not arguing regarding the defensive stuff.

Scott has given him a role that absolutely and completely neuters his obvious strengths and exposes his weaknesses.

A tour de force in shit coaching.

He went backwards because the opposition worked out his one trick . They tried to find him another role . Perkins himself wanted to play midfield. Maybe it is a tour de force in overrating. Not like he has been elite in many areas. As much as he was doing okay at half forward he leaked like a rusty gutter and made Stringer look like a genuine pressure forward. They drafted him to play midfield. Scott has given him a crack.

 

[ant555]

I think reliability is in general a fluid concept.

Some players are load bearing in the team structure and reliability is incredibly Important and others more window dressing with a lower baseline reliability requirement .

I wouldn’t want Wright to be my best forward but as a number 3/4 I think he’s pretty good and if a part of a successful structure I think his weaknesses can be covered

For instance I think if he played for Melbourne as a 20/80 FF/Ruck he’d probably comfortably kick 50+ goals

Is Essendon’s current list a good fit for him? Honestly probably not and that tends to deflate his value

I think you are seriously over rating Wright . It is pretty simple with him. Slow pace . Slow to react and leads into the back of other forwards . Poor core strength and badly exposed by defenders running off him . I was on board as the second ruck and 2nd or 3rd forward for a while but I do not think he has been any good since he did his shoulder bar a few games and has been pretty poor in the ruck.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

Perkins may be better suited to high half forward...but there is no way he unseats Stringer or Langford with his current output. I can understand giving him tagging roles, as it seems like midfield craft wasnt natural to him so would be a good learning experience.
His drop off has been disappointing as pre injury he seemed to have clicked this year. He came back and did well against GWS but since getting totally bossed by LDU he has gone backwards at a rate of knots. I still rate him but he needs a spell in the 2's to learn his craft as continuing to fail in seniors will dent his confidence more. Hobbs may not have the attacking flair but at least he doesnt shirk the defensive side of the game. Hope we see a swap of the two this week.

 

[jdstorm]

I think you are seriously over rating Wright . It is pretty simple with him. Slow pace . Slow to react and leads into the back of other forwards . Poor core strength and badly exposed by defenders running off him . I was on board as the second ruck and 2nd or 3rd forward for a while but I do not think he has been any good since he did his shoulder bar a few games.

it’s possible. In general I’m an optimist and tinkerer. Like the idea of what could be and get caught up trying to build towards an idea and try and make things work even if they shouldnt or clearly don’t.

I respect your football mind and while I acknowledge Wrights flaws as a slow CHF who isn’t overly physical… I think for this year the smart thing to do is to find a way to maximise that skillset (and trade value while Caddy physically develops in the VFL)

 

[boncer34]

Perkins was 45 games in and averaging 17 odd touches and most of a goal a game as a walking score involvement that impacted with every touch. Seat at the 20 disposals and a goal a game table with Heeney, Bont and Warner was being dusted off for him and reserved with a velvet rope.

Then Scott decided that he wanted him to do the donkey work on the defensive side of the stoppage and he has stagnated and gone backwards because they’ve given him an awful role.

Is that his fault, or is that our fault?

I’ll give you the hot tip, we’ve ****ed that up royally.

Scott has done a lot right but demanding players play roles they aren't suited for is a bizarre move. Build a side to play to the strengths of the playing group, instead hes trying to shove squares into round holes to the detriment of the side. Perkins, Martin, even the misuse of Massimo all strong examples.

 

[yodellinhank]

Scott has done a lot right but demanding players play roles they aren't suited for is a bizarre move. Build a side to play to the strengths of the playing group, instead hes trying to shove squares into round holes to the detriment of the side. Perkins, Martin, even the misuse of Massimo all strong examples.

Is that why he's doing it, or is he doing it as a development tool?

 

[ant555]

Scott has done a lot right but demanding players play roles they aren't suited for is a bizarre move. Build a side to play to the strengths of the playing group, instead hes trying to shove squares into round holes to the detriment of the side. Perkins, Martin, even the misuse of Massimo all strong examples.

We drafted Perkins as a potential midfielder.
D'Ambrosio was drafted as a half back / half forward.
Martin has shown that playing half back has not hurt his ability to move up the ground and play his old spot.
So far he has won more games than most said we would win this year . Are you saying we are actually a top 4 side and he is dragging us back ?