Mathematical Chances

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ThePope

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2003
3,682
398
32º 03'S 115º 45'E
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
South Fremantle
Around this time clubs in the lower half start talking about mathematical possibilities of making the 8.

Well, using a technique known as Monte-Carlo simulation, I've simulated the results of the remaining 64 games. Scores are derived by averaging a random number in the range of scores each team has scored this year vs their opponents range of scores conceded. This is done 2000 times to get the probabilities listed below.
ie Freo has averaged 90 points per game, top score 137, bottom score 61. Using this range (top and bottom values are set at 95 and 5th percentiles), draw a distribution (like a bell curve) and randomly pick a value from this distribution. Do the same for the Roos "scores against" and average them. Do the same for the Roos scores for and Freo scores against. that's 1 iteration for 1 game. Repeat for all 64 remaining games, repeat 2000 times. Computers are good at this sort of thing.
This does not take into account any home ground, form, injury or other influences.
The following is how the end of year ladder pans out, grouping the ladder spots by their finals effect
Freo have a 39% chance of hosting a final but still an 18% chance of missing the finals.
The Roos are about 50% chance of making the finals.
The Weagles and Carlton only have a 13% or 14% chance of making the finals.
The Dogs and Richmond only have a 1% chance of making the finals, as do Bris, Port and Melb of missing the finals.

Scores are also capped at 30 points for a low score too, no capping on the upper end, max scores simulated were about 200.
Code:
Team	1-2	3-4	5-6	7-8	>=9	16
St K	80%	16%	4%	1%	0%	0%
Bris	43%	40%	13%	3%	1%	0%
Port	39%	43%	14%	4%	1%	0%
Melb	30%	48%	18%	4%	1%	0%
Geel	2%	15%	40%	28%	15%	0%
Freo	3%	13%	36%	31%	18%	0%
Sydn	2%	11%	28%	31%	29%	0%
Essd	2%	10%	24%	33%	30%	0%
Kang	0%	4%	16%	32%	47%	0%
WCst	0%	1%	2%	10%	87%	0%
Carl	0%	0%	3%	10%	86%	1%
Adel	0%	0%	1%	7%	93%	1%
Coll	0%	0%	1%	5%	94%	1%
WBdg	0%	0%	0%	1%	99%	7%
Rich	0%	0%	0%	1%	99%	10%
Hawk	0%	0%	0%	0%	100%	79%
Again I stress that this only takes into account the range of scores each team has made and conceded so far this year (so that high scoring or low conceding teams are more likely to win) but doesn't apply any form of adjustments for home ground, recent form or anything else. Basically it is the opposite of the financial ads... past performance is the measure used to determine future performance!

I'll try to update it after each round.
 
Originally posted by Borscht Mat
nice


but aren't you just saying that when two teams play, the team with the highest percentage is likely to win ?

BM
On Average yes, but in each of the 2000 iterations it picks a random score for each team from that distribution. So most of the scores will be near the mean, but some will be near or a bit more than that team's high score, some will be near the lower score.

I could have presented each of the 64 remaining game's % chance of winning, but I don't think it's at all accurate at that level. Over the 8 rounds however, I think some of the inaccuracies would cancel out. Form or injury affected form is the one way that this doesn't work, ie Hawthorn without Crawford etc might score consistantly lower than their average to date. This method doesn't correlate one week to the next (it can, but it's more complicated to run).

I guess the real benefit is showing that, yes it's mathematically possible for almost every team to make the 8... it's slim pickings at the bottom.
I also haven't compared these probabilities to the bookmakers odds. Wouldn't surprise me if they use a similar system, probably including factors for home vs away, injuries etc.
 

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My probability theory is pretty rusty.

Is this the same thing as saying that the most likely result is the one for which the integral under the section of the "points for" and "points under" probability curves which overlap is greatest?

In other words, using your Freo and Roos example. In one case, a Freo victory, we have two probability curves, one for Freo's winning score and one for the Roos' losing score. For the other case, a Roos victory, we have another two probability curves but it's the reverse. Looking at one case, we can see where the two curves overlap and then integrate under the curve (with suitable bounds). We do the same for both cases, and see which integral is greater.

Am I on the right track here, or way off target?
 
Wow!!!!!!! Some big predictions there....

Hawthorn won't make the finals!

St Kilda will.

You don't have the Mathemagic computer tutor do you?
 
I'll try to update it after each round.

That will be the best thing that comes out of it all. And I'll think that in the end you'll find out the first results weren't so clear cut as first thought. This sort of math doesn't consider injuries for instance, or home ground advantages (especially for interstate teams). Probably a whole heap of other variables that need to be taken into consideration which this thread doesn't.

And unless you can unlock the secrets of Chaos Theory, it will remain that way.
 
Originally posted by ThePope
Around this time clubs in the lower half start talking about mathematical possibilities of making the 8.

Well, using a technique known as Monte-Carlo simulation, I've simulated the results of the remaining 64 games.
Unbelievable. Monte Carlo simulations applied to the footer. Hey Popey, do you think that Big Footy is Basel compliant??
 
Good effort, although in my experience with MC simulations, you need to do about 2,000,000 iterations, rather than 2,000 to get accurate figures.

Tweak you program to do that and see if it makes a difference.
 
Not a bad effort, although it would be good if you could adjust for the ground where the game is played.

For those naysayers with no useful feedback, why bother reading or commenting at all!!
 

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Originally posted by Jars458
What rubbish.
Quite possibly. The user manual for the software I use simulated the NCAA final 4. A team they gave 1.5% chance of winning, did.

But, compared to a straight out try every score between 60 and 120 approach (which does give you a good guide to the upper/lower limits http://footystats.freeservers.com/Daily/MWB2004daily.html ), this method also gives you some idea of the probability involved.
 
Originally posted by Jars458
What rubbish.

Rubbish maybe, but this is all based on some form of random distribution - ie. chance, and is not a exact science. If chance (probability) was an exact science, our mate Popey here would be picking the lotto numbers every week.

Sure it doesn't account for injuries and the like, but it does take out the emotional bias also (how many times have you fared poorly in tipping comp's based on emotion?). No doubt the bookies use this sort of analysis when determing their odds, just like insurance companies do.

Reminds me of last year when the top 6 teams were the non Victorian sides. I worked out that, all things being equal, this should happen once every 8,008 rounds. Which, for a 22 round season, means once every 364 years. Thus demonstrating that we do not have the level playing field that the AFL may claim we have.

Call me a sook, but this provides mathematical proof that the draft system, salary cap biases, home ground advantages (Ok, offset by away ground disadvantage for these sides), etc, etc have given us a biased competition in favour of the interstate sides.

ps - Pope, would be interested to know what this says about when the Tiges will next win a flag? I've probably got about 50 or maybe 60 years left on this planet - please make it soon! What about at least a finals appearance?
 
Originally posted by Leper
Rubbish maybe, but this is all based on some form of random distribution - ie. chance, and is not a exact science. If chance (probability) was an exact science, our mate Popey here would be picking the lotto numbers every week.

Sure it doesn't account for injuries and the like, but it does take out the emotional bias also (how many times have you fared poorly in tipping comp's based on emotion?). No doubt the bookies use this sort of analysis when determing their odds, just like insurance companies do.

Reminds me of last year when the top 6 teams were the non Victorian sides. I worked out that, all things being equal, this should happen once every 8,008 rounds. Which, for a 22 round season, means once every 364 years. Thus demonstrating that we do not have the level playing field that the AFL may claim we have.

Call me a sook, but this provides mathematical proof that the draft system, salary cap biases, home ground advantages (Ok, offset by away ground disadvantage for these sides), etc, etc have given us a biased competition in favour of the interstate sides.


It does not prove anything of the sort. It proves its possible, and it occured. Big Deal.
Pick the current top 6. They have exactly the same probability of being there. What does that mean ?

By my calculations we should expect an all non-vic grand final every 8 years. We are well overdue. Does that mean the finals are heavily weighted against interstate sides ?
 
Originally posted by Leper
ps - Pope, would be interested to know what this says about when the Tiges will next win a flag? I've probably got about 50 or maybe 60 years left on this planet - please make it soon! What about at least a finals appearance?

Being a Tigers supporter, due to the extra stress in your life, ulcers and a severe drinking problem which you are likely to acquire in the coming years, your life expectancy is shorter than the national average.

You've probably only got another 20-30 years left this planet and for your sake, the Tiges will need to win one before Greg Miller's 50 year plan is fully executed:D
 
Originally posted by grayham
...By my calculations we should expect an all non-vic grand final every 8 years. We are well overdue. Does that mean the finals are heavily weighted against interstate sides?..

Agree with you on the 8 year thing ([16 x 15] / [6 x 5] = 8). Don't know if we are overdue or not though, as we've only had these six sides since '97. (2004 = 8th year). OK, we did have 3 to 5 before then back to '87. Think one has to consider the time it takes for these sides to develop (just look at Brisbane and how far they've come), which is why certain concessions were given in the first place. Although Port have chocked pretty well (give Greg Norman a run for his money) in the last 2 years, they'll no doubt come good before too long.

That said, I'm surprised we haven't yet had an all interstate GF. It will come before too long, that's for sure, just like the aliens from outer space will (OK, maybe the LSD is starting to kick in on that one).
 
Originally posted by Leper
Rubbish maybe, but this is all based on some form of random distribution - ie. chance, and is not a exact science. If chance (probability) was an exact science, our mate Popey here would be picking the lotto numbers every week.

So I guess you'd say that quantum theory is not an exact science? :rolleyes:

Probability theory is an exact theory - in that it is well formulated and based on a rigorous foundation of infinite dimensional analysis. You should not confuse the fact that it can not, in general, predict exactly what will occur with the mistaken claim that it is not an exact theory.
 
Originally posted by ThePope
Quite possibly. The user manual for the software I use simulated the NCAA final 4. A team they gave 1.5% chance of winning, did.

But, compared to a straight out try every score between 60 and 120 approach (which does give you a good guide to the upper/lower limits http://footystats.freeservers.com/Daily/MWB2004daily.html ), this method also gives you some idea of the probability involved.

What would be more suprising is if a team with a 1.5% chance did not win from time to time.

I like your table. At the end of the day, if I use it to predict the most likely ladder then it would be no different to just using percentage to determine who wins which game (as per my original post)....indeed you insert some randomness into the process but by using a normal distribution and itterating 2000 times the cummulative result will still essentially be the mean....and so in a way the randomness you insert you then remove.

Hovever it does still record the probability of other results so although the most likely ladder will be the same it gives a useful indication of what other likely combinations there are....and what the rough probability of these combination is.

Good Stuff.
 
Post Rd 15 Update

After Rd 15, the main changes are Freo's drop and the Roos rise. The Dogs and Richmond's chances of making the 8 are also below 0.5% (Richmond's is 0.02%!)
Code:
Team	1-2	3-4	5-6	7-8	>=9	PP	Wooden Spoon
St K	52%	32%	12%	3%	1%	0%	0%
Bris	47%	34%	14%	4%	0%	0%	0%
Port	47%	35%	14%	4%	0%	0%	0%
Melb	39%	38%	18%	5%	1%	0%	0%
Geel	5%	19%	33%	27%	15%	0%	0%
Freo	1%	7%	23%	33%	36%	0%	0%
Sydn	3%	13%	29%	32%	24%	0%	0%
Essd	3%	13%	29%	32%	23%	0%	0%
Kang	2%	8%	23%	35%	32%	0%	0%
WCst	0%	1%	5%	15%	80%	0%	0%
Carl	0%	0%	0%	5%	95%	0%	1%
Adel	0%	0%	1%	4%	96%	1%	1%
Coll	0%	0%	0%	2%	97%	1%	2%
WBdg	0%	0%	0%	0%	100%	6%	8%
Rich	0%	0%	0%	0%	100%	7%	16%
Hawk	0%	0%	0%	0%	100%	54%	73%
Edit... found error in % and Wooden Spoon calcs ... Saints chances of staying top 2 drop substantially.
Added chances of getting a Priority Pick column as well.
 

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Mathematical Chances

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