Coach Men's Senior Coach: Brad Scott

[JayJ20]

I missed this.

I don't know what to make of streaks generally. They're good for confidence but I am not sure they create winning culture in and of themselves. They need to be backed up with something.

Richmond went on a long streak in 15, too, where it won a lot of footy to storm home from a bad position in a very similar way to Carlton 23. It then got smashed by Port in the EF and dipped in 2016.

I'd say the streaks are verification / affirmation of the capacity of a team / list, not as important as finals because the draw can contrive scenarios which produce flattering streaks.

What I think is more significant to the examples you've identified is the style of player favoured by those 3 lists. In each case the focus has been on physical players / competitors / hard ball winners even to a flaw. Melbourne had to be less hardball bees to a honey pot to become a premiership team.

Carlton's problem pre-Voss was that it wasn't set up to maximise the strength of its list. Whether he can evolve is a similar question to the one faced by Fagan and Brisbane. A 12 win season, with late narrow losses to top teams, is likely a big part of the belief underpinning the streak of 23.

I see this as part of what Red Black and Blue has been talking about but I don't think it's about stars as much as it is the character of the list itself. Physical and competitive players produce a physical and competitive culture. Hard runners with natural running talent produce a two way culture of hard running. Many really solid teams have 1 or the other. Some teams are blessed to have both.

So I think Carlton took confidence from Voss playing to the strength of its players in much the same way Richmond did in 17 when it turfed the attempt to be more like Hawthorn.

Carlton could always tell itself that it can smash anyone in close because it can. That's what a fleet of >90kg hard ball winners does.

What do our players do that is associated with premiership success that you can build a culture on? I say nothing. You don't build a culture on the front running which is a necessary part of being good.

It's why I have been pretty savage on Brad Scott. What decision has he made that prioritises the qualities of players who have the innate finals game that you can build a culture on? Loose ball gets? Culture can't just be words and habits as goals, it necessarily reflects the people who comprise the institution. In all of his waffle he seems to have overlooked that reality.

I agree with that and I also don't see a premiership list right now.

GWS in particular are the opposite of Essendon in every way and their list is what I'd like Essendon to develop. The problem is that it requires trading players out for stronger and fit players, something that previous coaches were unwilling to do and I hope Brad is prepared to do that. He mentioned in his most recent interview that he would let players who aren't willing to live an AFL lifestyle go and I hope it includes players that prevent us from contending.

In your opinion, what players need to be recruited and what players need to be traded?

 

[JayJ20]

There’s one thing all great teams have in common. Effort and physicality.

Doesn’t matter your size or speed but if your willing to make a hit, take a hit, and run just as hard when you’re down as when you’re up that’s a great place to start.

I think those last two games last season vs Collingwood and GWS were huge because they showed who on the field were resilient. It’s not an accident that Merrett, Langford, Martin, Durham and a few others are getting bigger responsibilities.

I'd have these four + Ridley as players who have the right attributes to become premiership players. Hobbs, Reid and even Caddy are others that I'm confident in (provided they are fit). Though I don't know about his professionalism, I'm not worried about Draper either. McKay is also necessary as a partner to Reid.

I'm either unsure or very worried about the rest unless I forgot someone. It's concerning how little security and faith we have in the list at this stage of its build.

 

[Call Me Cake]

I also don't see a premiership list right now.

To be fair, people were saying the same thing about the Bulldogs in 2015. Or Richmond in 2016. Or West Coast in 2017. Or Melbourne in 2020. Might I also remind you that people weren't that crash hot about the Giants in the first half of 2023 either. And those were in regards to the premiership the very next year, let alone years ahead. People's perceptions of things changes based on what they see.

Truth is no one can "see" a premiership list at any specific moment before it's won, otherwise the majority of calls on who wins a flag wouldn't be so wrong and the bookies would lose billions.

I feel the idea of a competitive team is something people can envision more, and I can see the building blocks of that in this side. There are not many holes that need to be filled. A few here and there. If we continue to safeguard/attack the draft/free agency as we have been doing of recent (which was in stark contrast to the post-2013 era) and create a stable/professional environment where the standards of the players can be raised (also in stark contrast to the post-2013 era), then I don't see any reason why Scott wouldn't have the best canvas available to build the team for competitiveness over the next 4 years and more.

Once you have a competitive side, then that can translate to finals wins, and then hopefully a premiership (which is the hardest thing to predict let alone win).

 

[ant555]

I agree with that and I also don't see a premiership list right now.

GWS in particular are the opposite of Essendon in every way and their list is what I'd like Essendon to develop. The problem is that it requires trading players out for stronger and fit players, something that previous coaches were unwilling to do and I hope Brad is prepared to do that. He mentioned in his most recent interview that he would let players who aren't willing to live an AFL lifestyle go and I hope it includes players that prevent us from contending.

In your opinion, what players need to be recruited and what players need to be traded?

We can never build like GWS because their initial build was built on the back of a bulk of top 20 picks and then more top end picks when clubs raided them. We simply have not had the access to that many top 10 picks to build a foundation.

 

[ant555]

To be fair, people were saying the same thing about the Bulldogs in 2015. Or Richmond in 2016. Or West Coast in 2017. Or Melbourne in 2020. Might I also remind you that people weren't that crash hot about the Giants in the first half of 2023 either. And those were in regards to the premiership the very next year, let alone years ahead. People's perceptions of things changes based on what they see.

Truth is no one can "see" a premiership list at any specific moment before it's won, otherwise the majority of calls on who wins a flag wouldn't be so wrong and the bookies would lose billions.

I feel the idea of a competitive team is something people can envision more, and I can see the building blocks of that in this side. There are not many holes that need to be filled. A few here and there. If we continue to safeguard/attack the draft/free agency as we have been doing of recent (which was in stark contrast to the post-2013 era) and create a stable/professional environment where the standards of the players can be raised (also in stark contrast to the post-2013 era), then I don't see any reason why Scott wouldn't have the best canvas available to build the team for competitiveness over the next 4 years and more.

Once you have a competitive side, then that can translate to finals wins, and then hopefully a premiership (which is the hardest thing to predict let alone win).

To be fair we do not have the top end quality that any of the sides you mentioned had.

 

[jdstorm]

I'd have these four + Ridley as players who have the right attributes to become premiership players. Hobbs, Reid and even Caddy are others that I'm confident in (provided they are fit). Though I don't know about his professionalism, I'm not worried about Draper either. McKay is also necessary as a partner to Reid.

I'm either unsure or very worried about the rest unless I forgot someone. It's concerning how little security and faith we have in the list at this stage of its build.

I remember thinking 8-10 players that game played hard just wanted to point out the obvious ones as I have forgotten the others.

I’m not willing to say that players who folded those days will never be good either. Sometimes you have to build resilience off the field first.

I think with the list it’s about reaching a tipping point where the players who are culture reflectors rather than culture creators reflect this culture of effort and professionalism.

 

[Call Me Cake]

To be fair we do not have the top end quality that any of the sides you mentioned had.

You're misconstruing my point.

I didn't say we are those sides. Less likely a year away from a flag, and more likely years away. I merely brought them up to show how often people don't consider next year's flag winners a "premiership list" the year before, let alone sides like ours that are in the ball-park of building towards one many years ahead.

Even if we look at Collingwood, a lot of people were looking at their salary/off-load scandal, lowering finishes and coach sacking as a sign of bottom finishes to come. Not a flag in 24 months. In hindsight, we can see they were not too far removed from their 2018 GF appearance and merely had a lull & benefited from a coaching change. That's not to say we are them, they were still a good side from that 2018/2019 era that people wrote off and we are a young side building to be competitive - but it is to show how "seeing premiership lists" is mostly a stab in the dark even in regards to sides that aren't even that bad (Pies before 2022) and people need to see a team do something again before they can believe it.

We should be aiming for more than winning a final, we all agree on that, but regardless of who we draft/recruit no one is ever going to stake their claim on us having a premiership list until they see us consistently competitive and making/winning finals with their own eyes.

 

[ant555]

You're misconstruing my point.

I didn't say we are those sides, that I mentioned. Less likely a year away from a flag, and more likely years away.

I merely brought those sides up to show how often people don't consider next year's flag winners a "premiership list" the year before. Let alone sides like ours that are in the ball-park of building towards one years ahead.

And even if we focus on those sides that I mentioned, you may say they had top end quality now from the benefit of hindsight but barely anyone was thinking that at the time, and this is truth.

Even if we look at Collingwood, a lot of people were looking at their salary/off-load scandal, lowering finishes and coach sacking as a sign of bottom finishes to come. Not a flag in 24 months. In hindsight, we can see they were not too far removed from their 2018 GF appearance and merely had a lull & benefited from a coaching change. That's not to say we are them, we are a young side building to be competitive, but it is to show how "seeing premiership lists" is mostly a stab in the dark even in regards to sides that aren't even that bad and people need to see a team do something before they can believe it.

We should be aiming for more than winning a final we all agree on that but regardless of who we draft/recruit no one is ever going to stake their claim on us having a premiership list until they see us consistently competitive and making/winning finals with their own eyes.

We should be aiming to actually play team defense properly and then go from there.
Collingwood still had a decent culture and a side that was built based on strong defense. McRae just released the handbrake Buckley had on them. You can not compare them to us.
The closest would be the Tigers but we have yet to display the running power they had or the leadership.

 

[Call Me Cake]

We should be aiming to actually play team defense properly and then go from there.

Funny that you say that because I actually feel our back six has the most potential/is the most solid it's been in almost 10 years. Yes I know you meant defense across the board but I don't think that has ever been a possible goal until we've gone as close as possible in sorting it out down back.

 

[ant555]

Funny that you say that because I actually feel our back six has the most potential/is the most solid it's been in 15 years. Yes I know you meant defense across the board but I don't think that has ever been a possible goal until we've gone as close as possible in sorting it down back.

I think our back six has been under rated in recent years anyway. They have been under massive pressure most weeks because the plonkers up the field can not defend. Yes it now looks better for sure but we still have poor marking power through the midfield and KP / Rucks in front of the footy . We do not have the endurance yet and our forward line has more questions than most sides. The midfield probably looks the best it has been balanced for a while but just lacks a super star beast.

 

[JayJ20]

To be fair, people were saying the same thing about the Bulldogs in 2015. Or Richmond in 2016. Or West Coast in 2017. Or Melbourne in 2020. Might I also remind you that people weren't that crash hot about the Giants in the first half of 2023 either. And those were in regards to the premiership the very next year, let alone years ahead. People's perceptions of things changes based on what they see.

Truth is no one can "see" a premiership list at any specific moment before it's won, otherwise the majority of calls on who wins a flag wouldn't be so wrong and the bookies would lose billions.

I feel the idea of a competitive team is something people can envision more, and I can see the building blocks of that in this side. There are not many holes that need to be filled. A few here and there. If we continue to safeguard/attack the draft/free agency as we have been doing of recent (which was in stark contrast to the post-2013 era) and create a stable/professional environment where the standards of the players can be raised (also in stark contrast to the post-2013 era), then I don't see any reason why Scott wouldn't have the best canvas available to build the team for competitiveness over the next 4 years and more.

Once you have a competitive side, then that can translate to finals wins, and then hopefully a premiership (which is the hardest thing to predict let alone win).

But each of those teams had the makings of a premiership side with top end talent. They had something that couldn't be ignored. Bulldogs surprised me because of how quick they won one, but the moment Bontempelli broke out alongside Libba and Macrae, we could see they were building something special, even if it came much earlier than expected.

Cotchin, Martin, Rance and Reiwoldt were too good not to become contenders and it was clear to anyone paying attention that they were underperforming from 2013-2016. They finished 5th in 2013 and 2015 so how could people not have seen at least a premiership contending side.

West Coast made the grand final in 2015 so they obviously had a premiership contending list.

Melbourne pre-2021 were very much like Carlton pre-2023 and they were significantly underperforming so of course we could see the makings of a premiership list. Oliver, Petracca, Gawn are elite players that match any of the previous premiers in quality. Carlton and GWS making a prelim wasn't surprising because they both underperformed in the first place. They always had the talent.

I could also see it with Brisbane at the end of 2018 when they only won 5 games. Full of top end talent. Premierships are almost never surprising unless a young talented team jumps up and wins one before they establish themselves like Bulldogs 2016, Hawthorn 2008 and Essendon 1993. None of these sides lacked elite talent.

What makes our list or the way we play special in comparison to other clubs? How will we compete with sides like GWS and Gold Coast in their prime now that both have competent coaches? A premiership has something special that you can see before it comes. Something difficult to counter for opposition whether it's a superstar key forward like Buddy, or an elite midfield group, or incredible synergy, or a mastermind coach, or undeniable talent, or incredible fitness. Martin is the only proven young player that would make opposition coaches nervous. Diacos in his first two seasons probably garnered more sweat from opposition coaches than all of our players combined.

This season and the upcoming trade period will tell us a lot about the list and about Brad as a coach. We just have to see something from Tsatas, Durham, Duursma, Caldwell, Perkins, Cox, Reid, Jones, Bryan and Caddy to be confident about the list. I'm not writing the list off, but things need to change and I hope the above players can finally bring some success.

 

[Call Me Cake]

But each of those teams had the makings of a premiership side.

Firstly I was not comparing us to them. If you saw my post above, where I explained it, we are not a year away from a flag. But even those that did have enough quality to change things up within a year, not many saw it coming and that's a fact. So how can you say you can see a premiership side years from now? It defeats logic.

Those teams flipped things around in under a year (not going to be us), and at the time, they were looked at as lowly sides. Now imagine if they were talking about Melbourne in 2014, or Bulldogs in 2012, or West Coast in 2013? Or Richmond in 2011?

Our journey is far from finished, further removed now from the saga, but also in need of proving ourselves in being competitive enough across a season and winning finals before we can then look forward to "seeing" the makings of a premiership side with any reasonable sample size.

They had something that couldn't be ignored. Bulldogs surprised me because of how quick they won one, but the moment Bontempelli broke out alongside Libba and Macrae, we could see they were building something special, even if it came much earlier than expected.

Cotchin, Martin, Rance and Reiwoldt were too good not to become contenders and it was clear to anyone paying attention that they were underperforming from 2013-2016. They finished 5th in 2013 and 2015 so how could people not have seen at least a premiership contending side.

Melbourne pre-2021 were very much like Carlton pre-2023 and they were significantly underperforming so of course we could see the makings of a premiership list. Oliver, Petracca, Gawn. Carlton and GWS making a prelim wasn't surprising because they both underperformed in the first place. They always had the talent.

Again, I wasn't comparing those sides to us, but even then they were not viewed as they were later. Even in regards to Richmond, who did play finals consecutively before 2016 (but did not win a final in that time - which should be our goal), they were staring down the barrel of a coach sacking and overhaul before a final let-off. We are not them, we need to be playing and winning finals consecutively to build standards/a culture to depend on, but to say you saw 2017 coming in 2016 is a blatant lie and you know it.

Also, you're speaking of Carlton as if they've won a flag already. Cool your jets. I also bet you saw Melbourne winning more than 1 over other sides in the last 3 years.

I could also see it with Brisbane at the end of 2018 when they only won 5 games.

And? Despite you seeing them as having a premiership quality list over 6 years ago, they haven't won a flag. Not sure why you'd even bring them up. Again, we're not them.

Premierships are almost never surprising unless a young talented team jumps up wins one before they establish themselves like Bulldogs 2016, Hawthorn 2008 and Essendon 1993.

I bet the bookies are bankrupt then. Fact of the matter is, a lot of lists are seen as "premiership sides", but a lot of them don't end up winning one, it's been as of late recent teams that have turned things around after having been pretty competitive for a while. They're not seen, but bred. And that's where we need to be, in order to even see things like premiership quality in a list, we need to spend years actually being competitive and consistent before we speak of the things you spoke of. All I see when I see your replies is "I saw it coming, trust me bro".

What makes our list or the way we play special in comparison to other clubs? How will we compete with sides like GWS and Gold Coast in their prime now that both have competent coaches? A premiership has something special that you can see before it comes. Something difficult to counter for opposition whether it's a superstar key forward like Buddy, or an elite midfield group, or incredible synergy, or a mastermind coach, or undeniable talent, or incredible fitness. Martin is the only proven young player that would make opposition coaches nervous. Diacos in his first two seasons probably garnered more sweat from opposition coaches than all of our players combined.

This season and the upcoming trade period will tell us a lot about the list and about Brad as a coach. We just have to see something from Tsatas, Durham, Duursma, Caldwell, Perkins, Cox, Reid, Jones, Bryan and Caddy to be confident about the list. I'm not writing the list off, but things need to change and I hope the above players can finally bring some success.

I wasn't comparing us to those clubs. Again, using them to show that even envisioning a premiership list 12 months ahead was difficult, let alone years away like we are. And with those things, people often benefit from hindsight. You will not see a star in a side unless we breed them and show it. You will not see a side capable of winning a premiership until you see how it performs in finals consistently. It's literal common sense.

I agree that this season and upcoming seasons will tell us what we need to know more, which is why I find it surprising that you're so quick to jump in being concerned about the future of the list in terms of flags when we haven't even had a proper go at building to be competitive yet.

 

[JayJ20]

Firstly I was not comparing us to them. If you saw my post above, where I explained it, we are not a year away from a flag. But even those that did have enough quality to change things up within a year, not many saw it coming and that's a fact. So how can you say you can see a premiership side years from now? It defeats logic.

Those teams flipped things around in under a year (not going to be us), and at the time, they were looked at as lowly sides. Now imagine if they were talking about Melbourne in 2014, or Bulldogs in 2012, or West Coast in 2013? Or Richmond in 2011?

Our journey is far from finished, further removed now from the saga, but also in need of proving ourselves in being competitive enough across a season and winning finals before we can then look forward to "seeing" the makings of a premiership side with any reasonable sample size.



Again, I wasn't comparing those sides to us, but even then they were not viewed as they were later. Even in regards to Richmond, who did play finals consecutively before 2016 (but did not win a final in that time - which should be our goal), they were staring down the barrel of a coach sacking and overhaul before a final let-off. We are not them, we need to be playing and winning finals consecutively to build standards/a culture to depend on, but to say you saw 2017 coming in 2016 is a blatant lie and you know it.

Also, you're speaking of Carlton as if they've won a flag already. Cool your jets. I also bet you saw Melbourne winning more than 1 over other sides in the last 3 years.



And? Despite you seeing them as having a premiership quality list over 6 years ago, they haven't won a flag. Not sure why you'd even bring them up. Again, we're not them.



I bet the bookies are bankrupt then. Fact of the matter is, a lot of lists are seen as "premiership sides", but a lot of them don't end up winning one, it's been as of late recent teams that have turned things around after having been pretty competitive for a while. They're not seen, but bred. And that's where we need to be, in order to even see things like premiership quality in a list, we need to spend years actually being competitive and consistent before we speak of the things you spoke of. All I see when I see your replies is "I saw it coming, trust me bro".



I wasn't comparing us to those clubs. Again, using them to show that even envisioning a premiership list 12 months ahead was difficult, let alone years away like we are. And with those things, people often benefit from hindsight. You will not see a star in a side unless we breed them and show it. You will not see a side capable of winning a premiership until you see how it performs in finals consistently. It's literal common sense.

I agree that this season and upcoming seasons will tell us what we need to know more, which is why I find it surprising that you're so quick to jump in being concerned about the future of the list in terms of flags when we haven't even had a proper go at building to be competitive yet.

We have different opinions on this matter and that's fine. But I would point out that even though one team wins the flag, several teams can have a premiership standard list. Factors like coaching and injuries can impact who wins the premiership.
So yes Brisbane didn't win, but they were 4 points away. Yes Collingwood didn't win in 2018, but they were 5 points away. Yes St Kilda didn't win one back in 2009, but that team is probably even better than some premiership lists since.

It's not a guarantee that a team wins a premiership, but you can see the makings of one. Focusing on Richmond, they had Cotchin, Martin, Reiwoldt and Rance. Reiwoldt already kicked 78 goals in his 4th year in 2010 and became a premiere key forward. Martin, Cotchin and Rance were already evidently great players early on. Cotchin was captain in his early 20s and retrospectively became a brownlow winner in 2012. Whilst we couldn't have said whether they were winning a premiership or not, you could see they were building to a premiership contending list. The only question was if they were going to realise their potential and not if they had the top-end talent to win. Likewise Melbourne when they drafted, Petracca and Oliver.

A team to look out for is North Melbourne because they are building a really good side full of top end talent. Guys like Sheezel, Wardlaw, Duursma and McKercher are a good foundation to build on. They're also supported by Larkey who is a coleman contender at 25. They have significant road to make re their defence and were unlucky a talent like JHF left (along with the stupidity of Tarryn Thomas), but they have a side I can see becoming premiership contenders as the list matures and they continue to build on the list.

I feel like Essendon is more like Hawthorn and Fremantle where I'm less confident about the direction of their list, though with Fremantle it's only because of recent departures. I can see some individually good players, but I struggle to see the A-grade players that the above sides had early on. I guess it's a little unfair on Fremantle as they have better talent than the other two. Guys like Amiss, Brayshaw and Serong are up there with the best young talent. It's why I've been advocating for JUH so much because GWS, North, Gold Coast, Bulldogs and Sydney to name a few currently have more top-end young talent on their list. We need to beat them if we are going to win a premiership, which at this stage I cannot see.

 

[bomberlegend2007]

I really do feel we overstate culture, or even a shift in culture within a football club. Hell, if we are judging culture, Melbourne would be dead last.

Yeah, our culture has been shit for years, but that is really the tip of the iceberg. And if we look into, it does seem like there has been a cultural shift in the playing group.

The main problem with Essendon is the lack of money within our footy program. It does seem like however, Essendon has finally caught up with the times. The biggest thing to happen to the club in the off season was not the new recruits, nor was it the camp in Arizona funded by the players, it was the recruitment of Rath and Robbins to the footy department. It shows that finally Essendon is back in the footy business.

 

[Call Me Cake]

GWS in particular are the opposite of Essendon in every way and their list is what I'd like Essendon to develop.

We can never build like GWS

Some snippets from early last year,




These were common cliff notes throughout that time. All of a sudden now GWS are the benchmark and supposedly always were (yes, it's easy to think this with the benefit of hindsight).

Hindsight plays a big part on how historical actions/moments are perceived when looking back. Hindsight and seeing it with your own eyes can change perspectives of what something used to be. That doesn't necessarily mean the year after - it could mean a few years later, or five years later. But this is a clear example of how people's perceptions go with the flow to the point that they're not even aware that they're doing it.

 

[BrunoV]

I agree with that and I also don't see a premiership list right now.

GWS in particular are the opposite of Essendon in every way and their list is what I'd like Essendon to develop. The problem is that it requires trading players out for stronger and fit players, something that previous coaches were unwilling to do and I hope Brad is prepared to do that. He mentioned in his most recent interview that he would let players who aren't willing to live an AFL lifestyle go and I hope it includes players that prevent us from contending.

In your opinion, what players need to be recruited and what players need to be traded?

He's clearly not prepared to do it. Let him pleasantly surprise you.

He had all of the AFL data. That alone was sufficient for him to act. He could speak to his brother if it wasn't obvious to him, as it is obvious to Hardwick (see his 'spuds' comment) and Buckley (who struggle to be diplomatic when he discusses us). We know Lyon walked based on a vibe.

Essendon's flaws are there for all to see. Scott has said he sees the game opening up more and more, that was part of the reason to throw his weight behind Tsatas over Philipou. What quality run or grunt has come in? How has team selection been used to promote these qualities? Were lining up a wall at half back to play on the counter when the quick break doesn't work. Supposedly our game against Geelong was evidence of defensive improvement and yet a Cats going between 60% and 75% sliced us end to end repeatedly.

Like Rutten, he's been faced with a list better defined by its flaws than anything else and his starting point is papering cracks.

I need to think more specifically about the list.

 

[jdstorm]

He's clearly not prepared to do it. Let him pleasantly surprise you.

He had all of the AFL data. That alone was sufficient for him to act. He could speak to his brother if it wasn't obvious to him, as it is obvious to Hardwick (see his 'spuds' comment) and Buckley (who struggle to be diplomatic when he discusses us). We know Lyon walked based on a vibe.

Essendon's flaws are there for all to see. Scott has said he sees the game opening up more and more, that was part of the reason to throw his weight behind Tsatas over Philipou. What quality run or grunt has come in? How has team selection been used to promote these qualities? Were lining up a wall at half back to play on the counter when the quick break doesn't work. Supposedly our game against Geelong was evidence of defensive improvement and yet a Cats going between 60% and 75% sliced us end to end repeatedly.

Like Rutten, he's been faced with a list better defined by its flaws than anything else and his starting point is papering cracks.

I need to think more specifically about the list.

Come on now Scott’s tenure has been the opposite of papering cracks.

He’s been highlighting and exposing all the cracks trying to rid Essendon of its culture of entitlement and amateurism

His job has been more political operative than coach up to this point.

Step 1 pick list coteries want. Ask for them to hit the standards expected of an elite team.

Step 2: watch them implode. Turn over list. Add talent and try again. This time with more club support.

Step 3. Build around players who can hit expected standards. Watch what happens. Assess needs. Turn over list.

Eventually:
Have talented list that can hit standards expected of professional afl footballers who want to win finals

 

[bomberlegend2007]

He's clearly not prepared to do it. Let him pleasantly surprise you.

He had all of the AFL data. That alone was sufficient for him to act. He could speak to his brother if it wasn't obvious to him, as it is obvious to Hardwick (see his 'spuds' comment) and Buckley (who struggle to be diplomatic when he discusses us). We know Lyon walked based on a vibe.

Essendon's flaws are there for all to see. Scott has said he sees the game opening up more and more, that was part of the reason to throw his weight behind Tsatas over Philipou. What quality run or grunt has come in? How has team selection been used to promote these qualities? Were lining up a wall at half back to play on the counter when the quick break doesn't work. Supposedly our game against Geelong was evidence of defensive improvement and yet a Cats going between 60% and 75% sliced us end to end repeatedly.

Like Rutten, he's been faced with a list better defined by its flaws than anything else and his starting point is papering cracks.

I need to think more specifically about the list.

Ok, you have the keys the last off season. Who would you have brought in?

 

[ant555]

Some snippets from early last year,

View attachment 1926083
View attachment 1926084

These were common cliff notes throughout that time. All of a sudden now GWS are the benchmark and supposedly always were (yes, it's easy to think this with the benefit of hindsight).

Hindsight plays a big part on how historical actions/moments are perceived when looking back. Hindsight and seeing it with your own eyes can change perspectives of what something used to be. That doesn't necessarily mean the year after - it could mean a few years later, or five years later. But this is a clear example of how people's perceptions go with the flow to the point that they're not even aware that they're doing it.

Quoting me shows you missed my point by at least 1500km.
Please do show me the 8 picks inside the top 10 in one year we had to set up our initial build .

 

[Call Me Cake]

Quoting me shows you missed my point by at least 1500km.

Your post was in response to a post using them as a benchmark, and in agreement of it, spoke of it in unattainable terms as if it has any weight to our potential in building a team. I bet you any money you were not using them as a benchmark a year ago. I didn't miss anything my dear friend. Agree to disagree.

 

[ant555]

Your post was a reply to a post using them as a benchmark, and in agreement of it, spoke of it unattainable terms as if it has any weight to our potential as a team. I bet you any money you were not using them as a benchmark a year ago. I didn't miss anything my dear friend. Agree to disagree.

My post was about the fact they came down a different road to us so you could not use them as a comparison.
Secondly they are like the Pies. Yes people thought they would fall of the cliff but the simple fact is they where a side that despite not winning a GF they had won more finals than anyone else in the previous 6 or 7 years so basically you can not say we can emulate their jump. We have not shown an improvement in culture nor have we shown we can win a final so the comparison is simply not there despite everyone tipping them to finish bottom 6 at the start and even well into the year. GWS still had a solid base to work with. The just needed a new voice in the same way Collingwood did. We are nothing like them.

 

[JayJ20]

Some snippets from early last year,

View attachment 1926083
View attachment 1926084

These were common cliff notes throughout that time. All of a sudden now GWS are the benchmark and supposedly always were (yes, it's easy to think this with the benefit of hindsight).

Hindsight plays a big part on how historical actions/moments are perceived when looking back. Hindsight and seeing it with your own eyes can change perspectives of what something used to be. That doesn't necessarily mean the year after - it could mean a few years later, or five years later. But this is a clear example of how people's perceptions go with the flow to the point that they're not even aware that they're doing it.

Ok but the media and the general public overreact all the time. They only had them there because of their low finish in 2022 after winning a final in 2021 and Taranto + Hopper's departures. But Tom Green and Callaghan are/going to be better than both.

My comment about them being the benchmark relates to their fitness, their balanced list, their good skills, their culture and their young talent.

You can't honestly think it was a surprise that they played well in the second half of the year last year? I expected they'd be down for two years like Sydney 2019/2020 and Collingwood 2004/2005, but it was a year and a half. Still, they have a wealth of young talent.

 

[BrunoV]

Some snippets from early last year,

View attachment 1926083
View attachment 1926084

These were common cliff notes throughout that time. All of a sudden now GWS are the benchmark and supposedly always were (yes, it's easy to think this with the benefit of hindsight).

Hindsight plays a big part on how historical actions/moments are perceived when looking back. Hindsight and seeing it with your own eyes can change perspectives of what something used to be. That doesn't necessarily mean the year after - it could mean a few years later, or five years later. But this is a clear example of how people's perceptions go with the flow to the point that they're not even aware that they're doing it.

You're quoting someone who never did the list analysis to reveal that there was 3 generations of first round picks making up the bulk of the best 30 players, many of which were top 10, which had been underachieving.

Just because it was produced by someone in AFL media doesn't meant that it has any more value than used toilet paper. In fact, the starting point for the product of AFL media, with few exception, is the value of used toilet paper.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Ok but the media and the general public overreact all the time. You can't honestly think it was a surprise that they played well in the second half of the year last year?

It's not about "being surprised", it's about what you see ahead of time. That was your original point. The general public (which includes you) are clouded by what they see at the given moment and are usually wrong 12 months out, let alone a few years out.

Yes people thought the Pies would fall of the cliff but the simple fact is they where a side that despite not winning a GF they had won more finals than anyone else in the previous 6 or 7 years so basically you can not say we can emulate their jump.

Did not say we would emulate the Pies, and I specifically mentioned the same things as you regarding why they didn't fall off, but those are known now due to the benefit of hindsight.

GWS still had a solid base to work with. They just needed a new voice

Yes. In hindsight. But that wasn't the common theme before 2023. Not comparing us to the Giants. Just saying how wrong people can be 12 months out, let alone 3 or so years out.



Fact of the matter is, until we improve our consistency across the season/finals, no one is going to stake their claim on us having any semblance of a premiership list years ahead of time. And that's how it should be, because our work in building consistency and being more competitive in finals is still an ongoing job and that's what we should focus on first before there's any talk of what our list looks like in terms of premiership quality.

 

[ghostdog]

I'd have these four + Ridley as players who have the right attributes to become premiership players. Hobbs, Reid and even Caddy are others that I'm confident in (provided they are fit). Though I don't know about his professionalism, I'm not worried about Draper either. McKay is also necessary as a partner to Reid.

I'm either unsure or very worried about the rest unless I forgot someone. It's concerning how little security and faith we have in the list at this stage of its build.

I reckon Caldwell would rise to the occasion. He's capitalised in some high pressure moments already.