Coach Michael Voss

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quirky_clayboy said:
It's an apt description of many arguments here. Perhaps because you happen to agree with them you're blind to it? Cue ad hominem
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Can you let us know your qualifications so we can tell if you actually have the knowledge to determine that other arguments are wrong?

This is a forum with many and varied opinions and theories. Many a person has wanted to limit those opinions to ones they agree with, but to no avail.

Better to accept that you're not going to agree with everybody, and everybody is not going to agree with you. The best way to mentally endure is to keep in the back of your mind that you don't have all the answers and be open to the possibility of being wrong. We're all on an equal footing then.
 
Wickzki said:
Just when you think the old boys club mentality has been eradicated...

Hamill, Russell, Clarke.

The only thing that made sense was making amends with Hamill which could have been achieved in other ways.
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Didn't even think of that. Two past players and a former assistant coach. Hell, it was our second attempt at getting Voss as well. We go back to a fairly limited well it seems.
 
The Old Dark Navy's said:
Can you let us know your qualifications so we can tell if you actually have the knowledge to determine that other arguments are wrong?

This is a forum with many and varied opinions and theories. Many a person has wanted to limit those opinions to ones they agree with, but to no avail.

Better to accept that you're not going to agree with everybody, and everybody is not going to agree with you. The best way to mentally endure is to keep in the back of your mind that you don't have all the answers and be open to the possibility of being wrong. We're all on an equal footing then.
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I have issues with how people are making their arguments, not that people hold a particular position. I don't think Voss is the issue but I could certainly be wrong. I think my criticism is valid and I didn't single anyone out. You may disagree. That's fine. It's a diverse forum. But it's open to me to respond to someone having a dig at me, just because they disagree.
 

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quirky_clayboy said:
I have issues with how people are making their arguments, not that people hold a particular position. I don't think Voss is the issue but I could certainly be wrong. I think my criticism is valid and I didn't single anyone out. You may disagree. That's fine. It's a diverse forum. But it's open to me to respond to someone having a dig at me, just because they disagree.
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It was probably the wording they took exception to.

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.
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You're aiming at a lot of targets here, while not specifically mentioning anyone. So, if anyone has an issue with coaching, they are to believe that you think their analysis is faulty and intellectually dishonest.

You'd be better off quoting the opinions you disagree with and offering a rebuttal, respectfully of course.

Generalising tends to catch a lot of posters in the net ... mods as well.
 
The Old Dark Navy's said:
It was probably the wording they took exception to.



You're aiming at a lot of targets here, while not specifically mentioning anyone. So, if anyone has an issue with coaching, they are to believe that you think their analysis is faulty and intellectually dishonest.

You'd be better off quoting the opinions you disagree with and offering a rebuttal, respectfully of course.

Generalising tends to catch a lot of posters in the net ... mods as well.
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Well we both took exception to something, responded to it, and didn't really get anywhere. So let's leave it there.
 
quirky_clayboy said:
Well we both took exception to something, responded to it, and didn't really get anywhere. So let's leave it there.
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Yeah but I'm addressing you respectfully as a moderator, so this isn't an agree to disagree situation. This is a friendly suggestion to find another way.

Thanks
 
Beyond Blue said:
I thought the same after his presser after the Pies loss. At the time I put it down to perhaps him being weighed down by the full extent of the injury crisis (worse that what the general public know), but to talk so matter of fact and blaming previous regimes for inconsistency after watching what was easily our worst performance of the year was pretty average from a guy who was a great leader as a player.

That said I think the entire club needs to have a hard look at itself. The players talk a lot about how much they want success and how much the club history means to them then serve up insipid displays like that. I’m also not sure we can say we are very good at any of list management, fitness, coaching and player development. The whole club needs to lift or the painful rebuild we started in 2015 is not going to deliver a flag.
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He got the job because of the inconsistency of the team under previous coaches. He got the job to fix those inconsistencies. The 'I didn't create the problem' defence does not work.
 
GT619 said:
deserves it too. whatever happen to voss the competitor. he wouldn't cop this shit. it's like a different person speaking, body language etc
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It's why I hated the "more chapters to write" bullshit rhetoric last week. The body language and the way it was spoken were so soft. Felt like it came right out of a self help book.

The only part of it that was appropriate was the message to McGovern that we win and lose as a team. Damn right. It wasn't a clearly (in my opinion) concussed Mitch that cost us the game even if he was the one who had the chance to win it.

Where's the anger? Where's the frustration? Where's the leader(s) who come out spitting fire and say that enough is enough and that the team won't accept anything less than success and that the way we're playing isn't good enough. Most importantly, where's the genuine ownership and responsibility?

And no, I don't want to hear "it happens behind closed doors..." Because they bloody showed what it's like behind closed doors in that video. Unless its all an act.
 
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GT619 said:
all these appointments fall back on 1 person that's the football manager brad lloyd where's he in all this
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You don't have to tell me this. He needs to be the first to go. Lying to members?
 
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Wickzki said:
It's why I hated the "more chapters to write" bullshit rhetoric last week. The body language and the way it was spoken were so soft. Felt like it came right out of a self help book.

The only part of it that was appropriate was the message to McGovern that we win and lose as a team. Damn right. It wasn't a clearly (in my opinion) concussed Mitch that cost us the game even if he was the one who had the chance to win it.

Where's the anger? Where's the frustration? Where's the leader(s) who come out spitting fire and say that enough is enough and that the team won't accept anything less than success and that the way we're playing isn't good enough. Most importantly, where's the genuine ownership and responsibility?

And no, I don't want to hear "it happens behind closed doors..." Because they bloody showed what it's like behind closed doors in that video. Unless its all an act.
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nothing makes sense
 
I received a message from another poster who asked me to provide potential candidates for the coaching roles I want replaced. I don't have the breadth of recruiting information and access that the club would have but here's my shot:

Midfield: Nathan Jones. The former Melbourne 302-game player has moved straight into coaching post-retirement taking on the head coaching role at Old Peninsula Grammar School this year after playing for Mt Eliza. He experienced it all as a player and was a cultural leader at the Demons through rough times. I believe he's relatable to every player on the list and someone who will motivate and lift the group.

Alternative: David Mundy (playing/coaching at the Seymour Lions, his junior GVL club -- also a long-term pillar of leadership at the Dockers)

Defense: Shannon Hurn. I'm not sure what Hurn has done post-footy so far but with his footy brain and leadership skills would love him taking charge of our defenders. A pillar of strength throughout his career I can easily see him becoming West Coast's next great coach (along with Dean Cox who's obviously tied to Sydney) and would not be the first legendary West Coast captain-defender with a future career as a head coach at the Blues.

Forwards: Ben McEvoy. Like Hurn I'm not quite sure what McEvoy is doing post playing career. However, what I can tell you is that the connection between the backline, mids, and forwards is a huge weakness. We also have a couple of very capable key position stalls, a ruckman who goes forward (TDK) and a couple of developing stalls (Lemmey and O'Keeffe) who project as ruck/KP types if they develop to AFL standard. As a ruck who could also was also capable of playing forward there's not many out there who would better understand connection and how to get the best out of the smaller players around him.

Strength and conditioning / high performance: This is far from my field of expertise. I just want someone who will train us smarter and not harder. If when the club makes the hire this is the type of commentary that they discuss in their presser and/or club release I'll be satisfied until proven otherwise.

In summary, Jones, Hurn, and McEvoy. Two premiership players (Hurn and McEvoy), a premiership captain (Hurn), and a former long-term club captain (Nathan Jones) all of whom have been successful cultural drivers and leaders at their club. All three are somewhat recently retired and are more than capable of relating to the players on our list and the other coaches.

All three would be tremendous hires.
 
In Vossy we trust i used to say last year, but my faith in him has been tested a bit over the past month or so!

Of course we have injury prone players, lack of key position defenders lack of pace etc but i do think tactical acumen or lack of is an issue with him.

Time is still on our side but it looks like this was another wasted year, and we can't afford too many more of those before our window slams shut on us imo.

If that scenario comes to pass we'll have the Tassie team compromising the draft as well. Of course it's also pretty galling to see the Hawks apparently fly past us on their rebuild.
 

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Wickzki said:
I received a message from another poster who asked me to provide potential candidates for the coaching roles I want replaced. I don't have the breadth of recruiting information and access that the club would have but here's my shot:

Midfield: Nathan Jones. The former Melbourne 302-game player has moved straight into coaching post-retirement taking on the head coaching role at Old Peninsula Grammar School this year after playing for Mt Eliza. He experienced it all as a player and was a cultural leader at the Demons through rough times. I believe he's relatable to every player on the list and someone who will motivate and lift the group.

Alternative: David Mundy (playing/coaching at the Seymour Lions, his junior GVL club -- also a long-term pillar of leadership at the Dockers)

Defense: Shannon Hurn. I'm not sure what Hurn has done post-footy so far but with his footy brain and leadership skills would love him taking charge of our defenders. A pillar of strength throughout his career I can easily see him becoming West Coast's next great coach (along with Dean Cox who's obviously tied to Sydney) and would not be the first legendary West Coast captain-defender with a future career as a head coach at the Blues.

Forwards: Ben McEvoy. Like Hurn I'm not quite sure what McEvoy is doing post playing career. However, what I can tell you is that the connection between the backline, mids, and forwards is a huge weakness. We also have a couple of very capable key position stalls, a ruckman who goes forward (TDK) and a couple of developing stalls (Lemmey and O'Keeffe) who project as ruck/KP types if they develop to AFL standard. As a ruck who could also was also capable of playing forward there's not many out there who would better understand connection and how to get the best out of the smaller players around him.

Strength and conditioning / high performance: This is far from my field of expertise. I just want someone who will train us smarter and not harder. If when the club makes the hire this is the type of commentary that they discuss in their presser and/or club release I'll be satisfied until proven otherwise.

In summary, Jones, Hurn, and McEvoy. Two premiership players (Hurn and McEvoy), a premiership captain (Hurn), and a former long-term club captain (Nathan Jones) all of whom have been successful cultural drivers and leaders at their club. All three are somewhat recently retired and are more than capable of relating to the players on our list and the other coaches.

All three would be tremendous hires.
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That’s all well and good, but is there any proof that they can coach? Some of the all time greats and legends of our game have been proven to not be able to coach
 
The Old Dark Navy's said:
None of those appointments inspired me. I didn't see what they had done previously to warrant us hiring them. It just felt like they were available. Hansen was the only one that felt like a good get.

The crazy thing for me is that Clarke is having his second go round with us. Why?
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Cripps is a big fan of Clarke.
 
SkyhorseTamer said:
This is so wrong... Gws has dropped Coniglio. Swans dropped Parker. Dogs dropped liba, Melbourne dropped Salem when they went down the ladder before their premiership and other top players. Geelong has dropped Guthrie, pies Adams...... No team don't drop their absolutely best. But they certainly do drop the 5-10 mark during underwhelming periods.
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Ross Lyon famously dropped Dal santo and Milne, and made players of both.

It happpens, I agree.

Philopou and Ross decided it was best for thr young star to go the VFL, again different player now

Bevo played Bailey Dale as a sub earlier in the year and never looked back

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Wickzki said:
My two cents:

Voss isn't the biggest problem with our coaching. We can forget about sacking him. We're locked into him and don't have the money in the FD cap to replace him even if we made the rash decision to sack him.

I position much of the blame on the high performance and the line coaches.

Aaron Hamill -- felt like a public relations move when we brought him back to the club. I'm not suggesting that I wasn't happy with it at the time I think most of us were. However, he was heavily criticized at St. Kilda when he was a coach there. The backline was a strong unit - our best line - when he came on board and it's gone backward.

Tim Clarke -- how can you turn the midfield from one of the best in the league to one of the worst overnight? I understand injuries haven't helped, however, the connection between the defense and the forward line has been dysfunctional at best this year and outright terrible at worst. Most of our mids fail to go both ways and they look lost when they try. A quality midfield coach would get the talent that is there on the right track. We got him back from the Gold Coast Suns (the less said the better).

Jordan Russell -- struggled as a midfield coach at the Dogs before getting sacked in the Covid-related sackings. The Dogs midfield immediately reemerged as a force after his departure and helped drive them to the 2021 AFL Grand Final. He then joined North Melbourne as an assistant under David Noble (development was excruciatingly slow and stagnant). He survived the cull when Clarko first came on but they were good with letting him go after last season. Our forward line was functioning significantly better in the second half of 2023 and almost overnight has regressed back to the nothingness of the first half of last year (regardless of injuries).

What I would do:

1. Terminate all three

2. Spread the money between Andy Russell's salary and what these three have been paid over 3 quality assistant coaches (which was promised to Vossy and Ash Hansen when they signed up) and replace them with quality.

3. Sign a high-performance coach with a "smarter not harder" philosophy. I'd rather spread the FD spend across 4 good coaches rather than putting our eggs in one basket.
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My contention for 3years has been, Voss being a 2nd time coach would know the pitfalls.

Surely he demands his own team that can fill his weakness gaps.

3yrs down the line, Aug 1st cut off on assistants lets see he hasn't learnt anything

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What’s Adam Simpson doing, he could be a great help…like Leon Cameron etc
 
Listening again to Voss interview

Every week it's the same crap.

Our effort wasn't where it needs to be
Contest wasn't high enough standard
Our connection needs work
We will move forward
We won't be distracted by the task at hand
We won't lie down
Not the standard we are about?
Issues aren't about individuals, it's about the collective
I have a strong belief around this group
There will be a response (I hear this every week)


ALL words but NOTHING changes
 
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Soapy V said:
Listening again to Voss interview

Every week it's the same crap.

Our effort wasn't where it needs to be
Contest wasn't high enough standard
Our conenction needs work
We will move forward
We won't be distracted by the task at hand
We won't lie down
Not the standard we are about?
Issues aren't about individuals, it's about the collective
I have a string belief around this group
There will be a response (I hear this every week)


ALL words but NOTHING changes
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As they say if you continue to preach the same thing over and over again you eventually may convince yourself and others that it’s reality.
 
Soapy V said:
Listening again to Voss interview

Every week it's the same crap.

Our effort wasn't where it needs to be
Contest wasn't high enough standard
Our conenction needs work
We will move forward
We won't be distracted by the task at hand
We won't lie down
Not the standard we are about?
Issues aren't about individuals, it's about the collective
I have a string belief around this group
There will be a response (I hear this every week)


ALL words but NOTHING changes
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Cliche speech
Sounds like a politician
 
Over the last 3 years I have been able to see a fair bit of Voss and have spoken with a lot of players and families about him as a coach. The feedback is always the same

Strong, has his opinion and sticks with it
Has a clear path and won't be shifted
Coaches every little thing. Very detailed
Big on reviews and meetings. Uses a lot of cliches
Has clear favourites
He is respected by the players but I certainly wouldn't say they love him

These can be taken anyway and can be good and bad, BUT my gut feel is he simply doesn't get the best out of players and players are more reactive than proactive

The ONE thing that worries me is that players say he is always a defence first, contested ball focussed coach. YET, that is the area we have been poor all year
 
jj1978 said:
As they say if you continue to preach the same thing over and over again you eventually may convince yourself and others that it’s reality.
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Not only is he saying the same things every week...we play the same every week

definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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