Midfield Accountability

[Goodfella]

I am a regular reader but an irregular contributer to this board but after the weekends display couldnt let this go by without anyone mentioning it.

We have heard all of the banter pre season about this so called accountability and the need to toughen up our defence. I believe we are well on our way to restricting sides through a gun full back and some increasing confidence of blokes like Shaggy. From memory we have not been cut up once this year by a prominent forward.

Where we have been soundly thrashed, and none more evident than the weekend, is our midfields absolute refusal to chase their opposing man. 101 possesions by the oppositions midfield, albeit possibly the best in the competition, and 6 goals is unacceptable. And this falls at the feet of S West (who I love) and the coach. This talk about our side being able to make changes as the game flows was not very evident. Surely a tagger would have been useful on at least 1 of their gun midfield.

We will not go anywhere as a side until our midfield runs with and puts great pressure on the ball carriers of these elite sides.

 

[stefoid]

How can you blame Scott West? Eade went for a shootout and a shootout is what he got.

Westy, in particular, seems to be playing a more accountable role this year, which is why his posession count is down and his tackle count is way up.

Personally Im not sure where eade is coming from. He said he was prepared to loose games to further our long term goals. Great, but then how do you explain:

1) johno playing FF
2) harrison playing at all
3) going head to head with the west coast midfield
4) using an ultra flood

This may all be part of his master plan for ultimate victory (tm), but if so, its a well diguised one.

 

[Dog 36]

I am a regular reader but an irregular contributer to this board but after the weekends display couldnt let this go by without anyone mentioning it.

We have heard all of the banter pre season about this so called accountability and the need to toughen up our defence. I believe we are well on our way to restricting sides through a gun full back and some increasing confidence of blokes like Shaggy. From memory we have not been cut up once this year by a prominent forward.

Where we have been soundly thrashed, and none more evident than the weekend, is our midfields absolute refusal to chase their opposing man. 101 possesions by the oppositions midfield, albeit possibly the best in the competition, and 6 goals is unacceptable. And this falls at the feet of S West (who I love) and the coach. This talk about our side being able to make changes as the game flows was not very evident. Surely a tagger would have been useful on at least 1 of their gun midfield.

We will not go anywhere as a side until our midfield runs with and puts great pressure on the ball carriers of these elite sides.

Good post, hope you can contribute more.

 

[bulldog]

I am about to commit board suicide here:

Scott West should be given roles where he spends equal time on the bench and in the forward pocket. He has lost more pace from last year and really is becoming a liability in the centre. I know he has a big body and is being used to protect the young players but he cannot contest nor is he accountable as he cannot get to contests. I know he gets 15-20 handballs a game but now he cannot break clear to get a kick off, his only offensive weapon is his handball. I think he was in the centre when wallace took over mid 1996, 9 year ago, to think that we stall have the same centre man for a decade shows how poor our recruiting has been.

While I am at it, Bowden, 4 possions vs WCE, 3 clangers in 70 minutes. He is Mark Alvey all over again, teases us with potential and the occasional good quarter but really a waste of time.

I am getting very bitter towards our recruiting performance, please play Walsh, Minson, Griffin, Ray, Morgan and any other young player with potential, then fill up with the damaged eagle, boyd, gio, robbins, hahn, etc.

Come on Eade, put the fear of God into the coasting, bludging players, put in or your out. Let them start another career at the team with the yellow stripe down their backs.

 

[OldSchool]

Scott West should be given roles where he spends equal time on the bench and in the forward pocket. He has lost more pace from last year and really is becoming a liability in the centre. I know he has a big body and is being used to protect the young players but he cannot contest nor is he accountable as he cannot get to contests. I know he gets 15-20 handballs a game but now he cannot break clear to get a kick off, his only offensive weapon is his handball. I think he was in the centre when wallace took over mid 1996, 9 year ago, to think that we stall have the same centre man for a decade shows how poor our recruiting has been.

You have hugely underrated a great player. If we treated our loyal players like that then why would any interstater for example actually ever want to stay on our list?
There might be some merit in occasionally using him in the forward pocket for short periods but to suggest that he should be just used as a FP or off the bench is a huge waste of his talents.

While I am at it, Bowden, 4 possions vs WCE, 3 clangers in 70 minutes. He is Mark Alvey all over again, teases us with potential and the occasional good quarter but really a waste of time.

He's not a midfielder and you are going over the same ground thats already on so many other threads. He might need a spell but that's about it.

I am getting very bitter towards our recruiting performance, please play Walsh, Minson, Griffin, Ray, Morgan and any other young player with potential, then fill up with the damaged eagle, boyd, gio, robbins, hahn, etc.

Why play players if they are not considered ready or in the best form just because they are young? This whole play the youngsters regardless of their form thing is seriously flawed logic. You would be setting these guys up to fail over the long term.
Referring to players like Eagle, Giansiracusa, Boyd etc as damaged is just insulting to the club and any fair minded Doggie supporters.

Come on Eade, put the fear of God into the coasting, bludging players, put in or your out. Let them start another career at the team with the yellow stripe down their backs.

Give the guy a chance to test and assess the players as he sees fit this season. If they don't measure up then I'm sure he will address it.
His job is to coach and develop the players and if he doesn't think they can add to the team then he will manage them out of the club.

 

[stefoid]

I am about to commit board suicide here:

Scott West should be given roles where he spends equal time on the bench and in the forward pocket. He has lost more pace from last year and really is becoming a liability in the centre. I know he has a big body and is being used to protect the young players but he cannot contest nor is he accountable as he cannot get to contests. I know he gets 15-20 handballs a game but now he cannot break clear to get a kick off, his only offensive weapon is his handball. I think he was in the centre when wallace took over mid 1996, 9 year ago, to think that we stall have the same centre man for a decade shows how poor our recruiting has been.

bwahahaha

 

[fred cook]

Personally Im not sure where eade is coming from. .

If there is one thing I cant tolerate and thats critcism of a coach

 

[Borgsta]

well said OS.

Edit: Actually i'll put some VAC (Value added comment) in here. How can anyone asking for accountability put the blame at the feet of West? Having just watched the 1st half of the WC game West is probably our most accountable so far. He basically didnt leave Fletchers side for the first half. Whoever was on Cousins on the other hand was kidding themselves.

 

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I am about to commit board suicide here:

Scott West should be given roles where he spends equal time on the bench and in the forward pocket. He has lost more pace from last year and really is becoming a liability in the centre. I know he has a big body and is being used to protect the young players but he cannot contest nor is he accountable as he cannot get to contests. I know he gets 15-20 handballs a game but now he cannot break clear to get a kick off, his only offensive weapon is his handball. I think he was in the centre when wallace took over mid 1996, 9 year ago, to think that we stall have the same centre man for a decade shows how poor our recruiting has been.

I'm sure I heard Westy last year on "Talking Footy" give indications he was still in the frame for maybe 3-4 more years. He has never been a player that rely's on blistering pace to be a champion so there's no issue there.His will to compete, super endurance and concentration skills are his best assets (IMO) and I have seen nary a hint of him waning in those departments. Therefore I doubt at this stage we should entertain any thoughts of giving him less game time.
Giffen, Cooney & Ray's time will come. Furthermore their development is I believe only enhanced by having Westy along side them imparting his skills for as long as possible during a game. to even hint that he is a liablity.. ugghh.

As it is, it s apparent in Rd 1 & 4 that Eade has altered his role somewhat, and given more responsibility to other midfielders at times, but it in no way diminishes his importance to us.


With regards to your comments about playing the youngsters ;you only play people when they deserve it. you may actually hinder rather than assist a player's development by playing him when not ready. You are way off base suggesting that we need to throw the season in the can and rush a bunch of newbies in and magically think that is the answer.

And finally with regards to your comments on Eade.
Do you think that perhaps Eade may actually have a clue here, OK. He has, as I've said in another post, already declared this year " wipe the slate clean." Why are you prepared to give so many players their marching orders in round 4. Furthermore, I'm amazed that you haven't seen the most positive sign from the lads to date.

Yup we've racked up the trifecta of losses, but I for one have been very impressed by the fact that even against Melbourne & West Coast when it threatened to get ugly for us, the fella's put heads down and at least salvaged their pride, and made damn sure they did not get pasted on the scoreboard. Against the Tiges, I was once again suprised by our fight, in spite of our best attempts to shoot ourselves in the foot with our goalkicking, the boys still have a crack and made opportunities to score.
This to me shows a growing courage and belief amongst the team, something that has been questioned for the past couple of years. It takes time though to
Hardly time to reward all of this effort by shattering the team's confidence by dropping all and sundry. yup some may need a spell, but let's not go playing too many musical chairs just yet. Rotations will occur naturally thoroughout the season anyway, and you will see the kids play, gradually and when deserved.
Decision time will come at the end of the season and not a minute before with regards to who stays and who moves on. I Don't think it is time for Eade to get the Birch whip out just and start administering floggings "til morale improves" just yet.

Board suicide, no, you've incited a bout of nausea though, nice work!!

 

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

How can you blame Scott West? Eade went for a shootout and a shootout is what he got.

Westy, in particular, seems to be playing a more accountable role this year, which is why his posession count is down and his tackle count is way up.

Personally Im not sure where eade is coming from. He said he was prepared to loose games to further our long term goals. Great, but then how do you explain:

1) johno playing FF
2) harrison playing at all
3) going head to head with the west coast midfield
4) using an ultra flood

This may all be part of his master plan for ultimate victory (tm), but if so, its a well diguised one.

1) Johnno has for the past 7 years filled on a semi permanent role the FF spot with admirable results. I also think he may have still been hampered with his ankle, more than he or Eade are letting on. which makes his performances to date even more exceptional

2) I've still got a lot of time for this honest player, Harrison has served us well, and can still provide leadership and good old fashioned " show the youngsters how it's done"

3) It may have cost us the game But it may just help us in the future with regards to learning. I think Cooney and like will have learnt a tremendous deal by watching Judd & Cousins in ful flight, perhaps more than if they had've tried to play negating roles on those two.

4) I agree with you somewhat on point 4 Steifold, although I'm keeping my fingers crossed that The Flood is only wheeled out for a short periods of time just to change tempo.

 

[OldSchool]

Another couple of great contributions YHF.

 

[The Doctor]

Scott West should be given roles where he spends equal time on the bench and in the forward pocket.

I made that call a while back and got howled down but I still stand by it. Scott West would be a sensational forward pocket and it would certainly prolong his career. His reading of the play in the forward line and his work endeavour would be invaluable. He would kick and create a lot of goals and would work harder than anyone to keep it up there.

For the moment however I still think we need to use him in the centre while Cooney, Griffen and Ray are learning the craft. There's nothing like an old dog to teach new dogs new tricks! As these pups become more accustomed to the requirements of this specialist type of work then we can release Westy forward more often.

So rather than bench Westy I would still play him in the middle and rest him in the FP and gradually play him more and more up forward.

 

[bulldog]

Due to the lack of anything decent on TV last night, other than mindless investigations into mindless killings, I watched the replay of coll vs WB. We did not win this game, we were waiting around to see if collingwood wanted to win the game. When they did not put their hand up we subsumed the game.

Melbourne were so far ahead of us in attack on the footy, skilled long distance passing and pure nous that we were not even close.

Richmond, even with their far inferior disposal around the ground were still too smart for us.

WC, what was it 40 shots to 20, come on. Yes we have had a trifecta of losses, these go with the 30 or so losses in the last 2 years. One poster said I had induced nausea, well to all bulldog supporters that post here, look at our team without the rose colored glasses. Our goal to goal line over the first four rounds has been

FB Harris great prospect
CHB Grant/Rawlings 32/27 years old
C West 9 years in the centre
CHF Bandy cannot kick, cannot handball, cannot get goals but boy can he run
FF Johnson 183cm

Come on, get off the grass, we have been in development for 4 years,

2001, 2002 wallace
2003, 2004 rhode
and now 2005, 2006 eade

Another poster said I insulted bulldog supporters by describing our players as damaged, well here goes,

eagle-no right side, one paced, often only outside player, not accurate on left side
Hahn-woeful disposal by foot and hand, poor set shot
Gio-only an outside player, not strong enough
cross-slow, poor disposal, runners frame
boyd-slow
skipper-slow
bowden-does not want it bad enough, woeful shot on goal
rawlings-cannot kick
street-cannot mark, slow
west-yes he has always been slow but now he is like treacle, he used to be tagged

Yes, you are calling me a ******** head now, but consider this, Cooneys delivery is the best bar Gilbey, he is faster in mind and foot and has another gear on the burst and can kick by snap and set shot. Dont you worry that over the first four rounds Cooney is better in everything he does (bar johnson and maybe gilbey) than every other player in the team.

We have 6 more games interstate, we play Melb, geel, wce & bris twice, we only win at the Gee, we are headed for the bottom again. Yes play the kids, like Melbourne did, like Hawthorn are doing, if we are 2&15 in round 18 I will still go and watch but I want to see our future not our past playing.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I made that call a while back and got howled down but I still stand by it. Scott West would be a sensational forward pocket and it would certainly prolong his career. His reading of the play in the forward line and his work endeavour would be invaluable. He would kick and create a lot of goals and would work harder than anyone to keep it up there.

Well he started there with some success but I think he might of been a better kick in those days? Remember 6 v Essendon at Whitten Oval. Maybe his confidence drops around goal.

Choco did it with good effect late in his career.

 

[C.E.Lovett]

Goodfella you are absolutely correct. Wel done, very perspicacious of you.

A disappointment to myself is that many people, including our current coach are too slow to make the changes. Can't see the glaring obvious. Took 3 weeks for him to wake up to Bandydud, how long is going to be before he rids the team of the other duds.

Eade has to be proactive he can't just react to situations, he has to make them happen.

At the start of the season I had West in the forward pocket and just lately the back pocket. Seeing that West has done well in the foward pocket before he should probably go there.

Gilbee has to be in the centre with other on-ballers Cooney and hard-nut Hahn. Then you will have a centre group that can run the ball foward and kick long with accuracy and the smarts and with Hahn get into the tough stuff. West and Griffen can interchange with them.

But there is always the unknown - exactly what are the coach's plans, we don't know. He might have some marvellous strategy in place so that now he is going to win the next 50 games in a row.

 

[Raw Toast]

I made that call a while back and got howled down but I still stand by it. Scott West would be a sensational forward pocket and it would certainly prolong his career. His reading of the play in the forward line and his work endeavour would be invaluable. He would kick and create a lot of goals and would work harder than anyone to keep it up there.

West is still our best centre, but I also like the idea of West resting in the forward pocket for the reasons that have made him such a good centre - his creative vision, reading of the play and great hands (including intercepting opponents handballs at least a couple of times a game).

I reckon West's main function in the forward line would be to create goals for others, by winning the ball and feeding it off to others in space. He did this for Brown a few years ago in Perth against WC, and could do it for someone like Faulkner who has a great snap.

 

[stefoid]

1) Johnno has for the past 7 years filled on a semi permanent role the FF spot with admirable results. I also think he may have still been hampered with his ankle, more than he or Eade are letting on. which makes his performances to date even more exceptional

2) I've still got a lot of time for this honest player, Harrison has served us well, and can still provide leadership and good old fashioned " show the youngsters how it's done"

3) It may have cost us the game But it may just help us in the future with regards to learning. I think Cooney and like will have learnt a tremendous deal by watching Judd & Cousins in ful flight, perhaps more than if they had've tried to play negating roles on those two.

4) I agree with you somewhat on point 4 Steifold, although I'm keeping my fingers crossed that The Flood is only wheeled out for a short periods of time just to change tempo.

yes, johno has done a good job for someone his size when asked to play FF. So waht? playing a 6ft FF is a waste of time in the long run. Johno is just as effective, if not more so from a HFF. I just dont know what eade is up to with this.

as for playing loose with the west cast midfield, it proved nothing, and the players would have leanred nothing. they already know how ignore their opponents and chase kicks. thats the problem. they need to learn how to restict their opponent and also get a kick. the only thing I can think eade was doing here was trying to avoid a 12 goal thumping because our players wouldnt be capable of restricting west coasts midfiled yet, so write this game off as a development game and just make it about survival.

question: who are out midfielders who can get first hands on the ball? its OK being a receiver like eagleton, johno, macmahon, gilbee etc... but they need someone to get the ball to them, and without those players we will get more pulverized in the clearances than we already are.

Against westcoast, Scott West had 29 disposals, 15 of which were contested or loose ball gets, and laid 6 tackles. He is our major player to get first hands on the ball, and whats more is is _still_ improving his game because he is following eades instructions to learn to restrict his opponent at the same time, rather than just be a complete ball magnet like other years.

west will improve as the year goes on, not fade away.

 

[morto]

I am about to commit board suicide here:
I am getting very bitter towards our recruiting performance, please play Walsh, Minson, Griffin, Ray, Morgan and any other young player with potential, then fill up with the damaged eagle, boyd, gio, robbins, hahn, etc.

Come on Eade, put the fear of God into the coasting, bludging players, put in or your out. Let them start another career at the team with the yellow stripe down their backs.

You want Eade to send a message to Eagleton, Boyd, Gia etc...
What kind of message are you sending to youngsters players if you give them a game when they haven't earned it?