MRP / Trib. MRP and Tribunal - 2024 - Rd 23 - The Derby Dustup

[Duckimus Prime]

Gws should go to the appeal tribunal and say what else was the player to do in that situation,get the afl to explain to all of us what they want, as right now this is ridiculous

The alternative for Bedford is to not lay a tackle.

Players have a requirement to show a duty of care to the player they're tackling. Bedford has to dive at Taranto in order to catch him in the tackle. It means Bedford no longer has any control of the tackle, which means he's being reckless. He's not in a situation to protect Taranto at all as he takes him to ground.

What Bedford needs to do is not dive at the opponent to lay the tackle. People have suggested that Bedford's tackle was similar to Dangerfield's. But its not, because the flog from Geelong never dove forwards with his body. He's always in a position wear he can try and provide protection to Walsh. He doesn't drive Walsh's head into the ground, so he wasn't being careless.

Its shit, and the AFL would be removing the desperate diving tackle. But thats what they want because they are potentially dangerous because the tackler has no way to protect the player being tackled. And they'd need to stop celebrating these tackles when the tackler gets lucky and doesn't cause the opponents head to hit the ground.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Yet the AFL is still teaching auskick kids to pin both arms at junior footy?
When do we get to the point the player with the ball once tackled is no longer allowed to try and break tackle? The player trying to break the tackle is half to blame for these things.

Both these two tackles have been given 3 weeks suspension, both of these tackles would not warrant a free kick in any era of the sport.

Something simply does not add up.

I think the problem we have these days is the game was never meant to be played at the pace and professional level of today's game, nor in accordance with social conventions.

Take the bump for instance. The bump used to be a perfectly safe practice where you would deliver it with both feet on the ground, with the intention of bumping a player off the ball as he attempted to pick it up. As the pace of the game quickened, players were jumping off the ground as they ran in to bump at quicker pace, and accidently collecting players in the head. So eventually the bump pretty much had to go.

The game is at a crossroads right now when it comes to tackling. We have reached a point where administrators of the game are forced to protect the head, but because of the way the game is played now are facing a dilemma as to how to police it.

The upshot of it all is we are either going to have to find a way to slow the game down or do away with the tackle altogether. As it stands now, we cannot have both. For a personal point of view, I'd like to see the chicken wing tackle outlawed.

 

[p4p1]

Bedford is nowhere near the same. Not even close. A chase down tackle from behind and he rolled Toranto onto his side so he ensured he didn't drive him in the back face first into the ground. I actually do not see what he could have done differently other than not bother tackling him.

Cameron pinned both arms and used his legs to drive Duggan backwards and he kept driving with his body and legs as Duggan hit the ground. No attempt to roll him on the side or to mitigate impact to the head. The last milliseconds Cameron drove his weight and increased the level of impact. Exactly how my coach taught us 35 years ago to legally hurt your opponent. In the modern game it is no longer legal and is dangerous. The outcome proves that.

Feel free to counter my views with something more than sweeping statements or open the other eye. The two tackles were vastly different.

Not even the players who play for your team agree with you.

 

[p4p1]

They will say rather going straight down Cameron could have released to the side minimizing impact. I don't love this way of thinking from the AFL but you watch that's what they will say. Did Cameron err on his 'duty of care' look I have my personal view but I doubt the AFL has the same one

There is an assumption with that argument that Cameron had complete control of where Duggan was going to go. He didn't, Duggan turning his body is proof of that.

 

[Obeanie1]

Not even the players who play for your team agree with you.

Ever heard of the players code?

And specifically what did they say?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

There is an assumption with that argument that Cameron had complete control of where Duggan was going to go. He didn't, Duggan turning his body is proof of that.

Hasn't mattered in every other case. Expect the tribunal to uphold the finding in this case, the Bedford one is closer to being thrown out.

 

[Obeanie1]

There is an assumption with that argument that Cameron had complete control of where Duggan was going to go. He didn't, Duggan turning his body is proof of that.

He was driving Duggan backwards and landed on top of him. His head ended up almost headbutting Duggan as he hit the ground. If he tackled from behind he would have been jumping on his back to plow him head first into the ground with arms pinned.

So he couldnt have turned him and not committed his own body weight and momentum into driving gim down?

Not take 4 or 5 little steps driving him backwards? Thats how rugby players tackle and drive to push the player back and regain ground.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The alternative for Bedford is to not lay a tackle.

Players have a requirement to show a duty of care to the player they're tackling. Bedford has to dive at Taranto in order to catch him in the tackle. It means Bedford no longer has any control of the tackle, which means he's being reckless. He's not in a situation to protect Taranto at all as he takes him to ground.

What Bedford needs to do is not dive at the opponent to lay the tackle. People have suggested that Bedford's tackle was similar to Dangerfield's. But its not, because the flog from Geelong never dove forwards with his body. He's always in a position wear he can try and provide protection to Walsh. He doesn't drive Walsh's head into the ground, so he wasn't being careless.

Its shit, and the AFL would be removing the desperate diving tackle. But thats what they want because they are potentially dangerous because the tackler has no way to protect the player being tackled. And they'd need to stop celebrating these tackles when the tackler gets lucky and doesn't cause the opponents head to hit the ground.

No player in history at any level in that split second of deciding to tackle, bump etc etc is thinking about duty of care to their opponent.

The AFL need to decide what is legal in our sport and then once they decide this then the outcome is just accidental.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

He was driving Duggan backwards and landed on top of him. His head ended up almost headbutting Duggan as he hit the ground. If he tackled from behind he would have been jumping on his back to plow him head first into the ground with arms pinned.

So he couldnt have turned him and not committed his own body weight and momentum into driving gim down?

Not take 4 or 5 little steps driving him backwards? Thats how rugby players tackle and drive to push the player back and regain ground.

Yep, now the Bedford one is more borderline as he did twist to the side to mitigate impact a fair bit. They are not going to like Cameron almost going for a piledriver and not mitigating impact.

 

[Obeanie1]

Yeah no I know, the tribunal will do as the tribunal does. I’m more arguing based on what’s reasonable and in the spirit of our game. Trying to guess how the AFL will want to interpret their own rules is a waste of time.

I suppose it comes down to who you think has the strength in the tackle. And how that strength influences the direction, force etc. The fact that Duggan is able to use strength to turn his body and bring the momentum in a certain direction tells me cameron doesn’t have 100% control as the AFL is arguing.

Duggan is being forced backwards arms pinned with Cameron driving forward with 4 to 5 little steps. And you are trying to say Duggan had contol of the situation?

The last two parts of the tackling action was uncalled for and dangerous resulting in a concussion. The 4 to 5 steps driving him backwards off balance. And then dropping his weight into Duggan as he went down. Those two actions were where he breached his duty of care and put Duggan in a vulnerable position.

That is what I would argue as the prosecution.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Duggan is being forced backwards arms pinned with Cameron driving forward with 4 to 5 little steps. And you are trying to say Duggan had contol of the situation?

The last two parts of the tackling action was uncalled for and dangerous resulting in a concussion. The 4 to 5 steps driving him backwards off bakance. And then dropping his weight into Duggan as he went down. Those two actions were where he breached his duty of care and put Duggan in a vulnerabke position.

That is what I wouod argue as the prosecution.

That and the fact is surely in lets say 4 steps for arguments sake...an elite player can adjust and go to the side, the bloke is falling backwards just let him go if need be. The lack of a twist to the side to adjust is a big no no.

 

[Obeanie1]

Yep, now the Bedford one is more borderline as he did twist to the side to mitigate impact a fair bit. They are not going to like Cameron almost going for a piledriver and not mitigating impact.

Exactly. At least Bedford didnt ride him into the ground. He made an effort to turn Taranto onto his side to mitigate the risk of serious injury. Cameron didnt do that.

Bedford did show a duty of care in his tackling technique. And thats how he gets off or at least has the penalty reduced. What else could he have done?

 

[woosha24]

The alternative for Bedford is to not lay a tackle.

And that, boys and girls, is where the game is headed.

Similar to how many players are now stopping dead in a contest when an opposition player bends down to collect the ball (so they dont take them head-high), we're eventually gonna see players either opt not to tackle, or stop tackling a player mid-action in order to protect the opposition player's head.

Its bollocks. If its such an issue just mandate that everyone has to wear the rugby helmets and be done with it.

 

[SplintWhisky]

One thing I just realised here is that the AFL does not add this "Potential to Cause Harm" card for actual sniping acts. Running by and elbowing a bloke in the head is the perfect time to pull this out and rub someone out for a few weeks but they don't use it at all.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

In all honesty, you could swear the games rules, tribunal, MRO and everything else is run by people who've never played the game before. They expect players in the heat of the moment, in split seconds to like pause real life, rotate players on a 20 degree axis and gently place them down into the turf while protecting the other players head and neck whilst also trying to protect themselves...or just straight up dematerialise instead of bracing yourself for full speed contact with something.

This is some kind of crap you expect to read on message boards amongst people who have never left their house or have never played a physical activity in their life

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Duggan is being forced backwards arms pinned with Cameron driving forward with 4 to 5 little steps. And you are trying to say Duggan had contol of the situation?

The last two parts of the tackling action was uncalled for and dangerous resulting in a concussion. The 4 to 5 steps driving him backwards off balance. And then dropping his weight into Duggan as he went down. Those two actions were where he breached his duty of care and put Duggan in a vulnerable position.

That is what I would argue as the prosecution.

Duggan is also trying to break the tackle and get away yes? What is the natural instinct of a player when a tackler is trying to get away? Increase force yes?

You know your footy mate, it is not reasonable to be asking the players to think of this stuff in split second circumstances. In those split seconds players are not even thinking, they are simply doing.

Based on what we are now seeing from the AFL the game has to become non contact.

 

[Elixuh]

In all honesty, you could swear the games rules, tribunal, MRO and everything else is run by people who've never played the game before. They expect players in the heat of the moment, in split seconds to like pause real life, rotate players on a 20 degree axis and gently place them down into the turf while protecting the other players head and neck whilst also trying to protect themselves...or just straight up dematerialise instead of bracing yourself for full speed contact with something.

This is some kind of crap you expect to read on message boards amongst people who have never left their house or have never played a physical activity in their life

Welcome to bigfooty

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Exactly. At least Bedford didnt ride him into the ground. He made an effort to turn Taranto onto his side to mitigate the risk of serious injury. Cameron didnt do that.

Bedford did show a duty of care in his tackling technique. And thats how he gets off or at least has the penalty reduced. What else could he have done?

Yep whereas Cameron rode Duggan down you just can’t you have 4 maybe 5 steps and you can’t twist a bit minimising the impact? We aren’t playing rugby league here. Do I think 3 weeks is excessive yes (a 1–2 week seems right personally). The Rosas one should be 4+ it’s a miracle he hasn’t broken his jaw

 

[greatwhiteshark]

In all honesty, you could swear the games rules, tribunal, MRO and everything else is run by people who've never played the game before. They expect players in the heat of the moment, in split seconds to like pause real life, rotate players on a 20 degree axis and gently place them down into the turf while protecting the other players head and neck whilst also trying to protect themselves...or just straight up dematerialise instead of bracing yourself for full speed contact with something.

This is some kind of crap you expect to read on message boards amongst people who have never left their house or have never played a physical activity in their life

All these things are in slow motion for the fans. Slow motion is not reality and unless you have played you really have no idea.

 

[Pacman82]

Even the WCE players are protesting these wrong decisions from the tribunal that are seeing players suspended for next to nothing..

‘Put a pillow under his head?’: Eagles star disputes ban

West Coast star Elliot Yeo has criticised the hefty ban handed down for a tackle that left Eagles co-captain Liam Duggan concussed as ‘wrong’.

www.google.com

 

[Obeanie1]

In all honesty, you could swear the games rules, tribunal, MRO and everything else is run by people who've never played the game before. They expect players in the heat of the moment, in split seconds to like pause real life, rotate players on a 20 degree axis and gently place them down into the turf while protecting the other players head and neck whilst also trying to protect themselves...or just straight up dematerialise instead of bracing yourself for full speed contact with something.

This is some kind of crap you expect to read on message boards amongst people who have never left their house or have never played a physical activity in their life

Sorry but this statement is total BS.

Ive played plenty of games of AFL football and tackling was the best part of my game. My father said I was better suited to rugby not AFL. 35 years ago my u18 coach used to say the only way to legally hurt your opponent was to tackle hard and drive them into the ground. HARD And that is exactly what we Gen X era players did.

Now tackling is an art form. Some players dont like doing it and others are very good at it, I loved it. Smashing an opponent in a good hard tackle driving your shoulder into their ribs was a highlight of the week. Especially against teams or players you didnt like. The ones you wanted to hurt you hurt.....legally. But others who were decent blokes or you are practicing at training you held back and looked after them. You would roll them on their side and not drive as hard with the shoulder and legs.

AFL players are elite at what they do. They know exactly what they are doing just like I knew how to hurt someone legally back in the day or look after them with a softer but effective tackle.

So your little rant above Im calling out as total bullshit and someone who hasnt played the game much at all.

 

[p4p1]

He was driving Duggan backwards and landed on top of him. His head ended up almost headbutting Duggan as he hit the ground. If he tackled from behind he would have been jumping on his back to plow him head first into the ground with arms pinned.

So he couldnt have turned him and not committed his own body weight and momentum into driving gim down?

Not take 4 or 5 little steps driving him backwards? Thats how rugby players tackle and drive to push the player back and regain ground.

Duggan clearly tried to get out of the tackle by back peddling and then at the last moment before both started to fall to ground, turning his body to use Charlie's motion against him.

 

[p4p1]

Sorry but this statement is total BS.

Ive played plenty of games of AFL football and tackling was the best part of my game. My father said I was better suited to rugby not AFL. 35 years ago my u18 coach used to say the only way to legally hurt your opponent was to tackle hard and drive them into the ground. HARD And that is exactly what we Gen X era players did.

Now tackling is an art form. Some players dont like doing it and others are very good at it, I loved it. Smashing an opponent in a good hard tackle driving your shoulder into their ribs was a highlight of the week. Especially against teams or players you didnt like. The ones you wanted to hurt you hurt.....legally. But others who were decent blokes or you are practicing at training you held back and looked after them. You would roll them on their side and not drive as hard with the shoulder and legs.

AFL players are elite at what they do. They know exactly what they are doing just like I knew how to hurt someone legally back in the day or look after them with a softer but effective tackle.

So your little rant above Im calling out as total bullshit and someone who hasnt played the game much at all.

There doesn't seem to be one current or ex-AFL player that agrees with you.
From what I have seen, J Brown, Buckley, Yeo, Gerard Healy, Tim Kelly, Josh Dunkley etc.
The only people I have seen that agree with your POV are Michael Christian, John Ralph and a bunch of nuffies on social media.

Now to the little bolded but, have you played more games than Duggins own teammate Elliot Yeo who in this (https://thewest.com.au/sport/west-c...n-tackle-wrong-tim-kelly-weighs-in-c-15370062) article states
“He didn’t slam his head in the ground, he didn’t do anything.

“Unfortunately he just fell because Duggy tried to shake the tackle... what is he supposed to do, let him out of the tackle?”

 

[Saint12]

Sorry but this statement is total BS.

Ive played plenty of games of AFL football and tackling was the best part of my game. My father said I was better suited to rugby not AFL. 35 years ago my u18 coach used to say the only way to legally hurt your opponent was to tackle hard and drive them into the ground. HARD And that is exactly what we Gen X era players did.

Now tackling is an art form. Some players dont like doing it and others are very good at it, I loved it. Smashing an opponent in a good hard tackle driving your shoulder into their ribs was a highlight of the week. Especially against teams or players you didnt like. The ones you wanted to hurt you hurt.....legally. But others who were decent blokes or you are practicing at training you held back and looked after them. You would roll them on their side and not drive as hard with the shoulder and legs.

AFL players are elite at what they do. They know exactly what they are doing just like I knew how to hurt someone legally back in the day or look after them with a softer but effective tackle.

So your little rant above Im calling out as total bullshit and someone who hasnt played the game much at all.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Hmm, who is more credible source for context about tacking at AFL level?

Current player Elliott Yeo… or some guy on a forum who believes he is good at footy because his dad told him so?