Training Pre-Season 2023 (First game 18/3 v North)

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Williams had an abortion of a season last year with a redeeming final game where he played far and away his best game. Still one of the worst shots on goal i've ever seen. Doesn't read the play well even at Wafl level in regards to his timing for tapwork, marking etc. etc. Low football IQ and can't kick for goal and is undersized for a modern ruck. He is up against it, has some attributes that may be impossible to overcome in regards to making it at AFL level. At best now looks likely to be a border line second ruck choice.

IMHO he's lucky he's got this year on the list to show something and if it wasn't such a shallow draft pool last year he was the most likely of the remaining talls to lose his list spot.

Also so far Exxon would be lucky to have shown a similar level of output to Williams at AFL level. Everyone has talked up his game against Collingwood however our midfield got absolutely monstered, he was nowhere near best on ground, didn't win his match up and if not for abominable finishing from collingwood and bad luck would have just been seen as an average performance in a 6-10 goal loss. He has the size and body now to be a starting mid. Does he have the ability, we'll see this year. Has no elite attribute but also doesn't seem to be lacking in any key area. This is the year to show he has what it takes in regards to footy iq and inside craft. Likely to be at best a stop gap until someone more talented takes his place and then depth. If he shows that much it will be a decent career all things considered.

Also someone earlier mentioned Luke Edwards as a comparison to Gaff and Tyson Edwards. He is so much more like a young Sam Butler than Tyson Edwards. I think people forget just how good an all round player Tyson was slightly undersized but a strong mid who regularly got forward and kicked a goal. Was really the crows second picked mid after Riccuito during the Crowbot era. Luke Edwards whilst he doesn't have any truly outstanding attributes does seem to have close to that level of of footy IQ, is the right height, size and has the marking, running and kicking ability to be a good hard wing player for us. A couple more injuries or some serious talent around him and he's borderline midfield depth or primarily a HBF or even a lock down back pocket.

Ginbey is going to need to show more. His work rate is elite and he will get everything out of himself but so far from what i've seen he has two limiting factors. His footy IQ and his kicking. He is reactionary which is why even with his absolute top tier athletic abilities he doesn't come across as quick on field and also hasn't been a heavy accumulator. His kicking is also average at best for an AFL player. He will however continue to work on his kicking and will get the best out of it he can but it is a genuine weakness. His athletic profile is truly elite (top 1% of AFL players) as is his workrate which is why he was drafted where he was.

Ginbey like a lot of others and I said this during most of last year that every one of the top picks has at least 1 major question mark to their game. There didn't seem to be a complete package in the draft and in comparison to other drafts whilst a lot of the top 10 picked don't necessarily have some of the potential weapons of players drafted last year they haven't also come with one or multiple major question marks on their game. I hope for Ginbey as well as so many of the others they can overcome their junior game deficiencies / inconsistencies and become great players.
Thoughts on his game vs Rowan Marshall? Don’t disagree with the low football Iq, his timing was off last season but it’s a very easy fix. The reason he has high potential is his athletic profile, you simply can’t teach the leap he has.

If he times his leaps and starts converting shots at an average rate that’s the makings of a very good key forward.

O’Neil impressed me in the dockers game, he certainly won’t ever be elite but there’s a place in a premiership team for a clean big mid that is very good defensively.
 
Thoughts on his game vs Rowan Marshall? Don’t disagree with the low football Iq, his timing was off last season but it’s a very easy fix. The reason he has high potential is his athletic profile, you simply can’t teach the leap he has.

If he times his leaps and starts converting shots at an average rate that’s the makings of a very good key forward.

O’Neil impressed me in the dockers game, he certainly won’t ever be elite but there’s a place in a premiership team for a clean big mid that is very good defensively.

Rowan Marshall has always had a decent contested game and a better footy IQ imo. Also being an undersized version of Rowan Marshall is not the level or Ruckman i'd be hoping for. Unless it's going to be a 2019 level form version of Rowan Marshall for the next 10 years. In saying that Marshall had some genuinely good games last year.

As a club we have been very blessed for rucks since Gardiner.
 
Rowan Marshall has always had a decent contested game and a better footy IQ imo. Also being an undersized version of Rowan Marshall is not the level or Ruckman i'd be hoping for. Unless it's going to be a 2019 level form version of Rowan Marshall for the next 10 years. In saying that Marshall had some genuinely good games last year.

As a club we have been very blessed for rucks since Gardiner.
I was talking his actual performance vs the saints, I consider Marshall to be a very good player and Williams had a pretty huge game against him.

Agree that Williams won’t be a Marshall type, ideally he peaks at Lobb from last year, that performs better in the ruck
 

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I was talking his actual performance vs the saints, I consider Marshall to be a very good player and Williams had a pretty huge game against him.

Agree that Williams won’t be a Marshall type, ideally he peaks at Lobb from last year, that performs better in the ruck

The battle between Williams and Jamo is interesting. Hardly heard anything about BWilliams this off-season with Jamieson’s development a lot more visible.


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Bailey William's problems are mostly mental imo.

We saw what he did in the final game of the year, when he's really playing for something, in his case a two year contract.
 
XON
Seems to be a bit of a meh player.
Not overly skilful, not overly fast or aggressive
He could nail down a regular spot but you'd kinda hope he gets overtaken but someone showing some sort of elite attributes at some stage in the near future

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That's about what we need from him. Both to get better, and to be overtaken by others.

If that happens he could end up as good, solid, mid #5 or 6 or even 7. Almost regular/upper fringe.

In fact, I'd be really happy if that's how it ends up.
 
From 2010 until he did his knee late 2016, Naitanui played 136 of a possible 162 games. The bulk of those missed games (11) were due to a persistent groin issue in 2013 and an Achilles (7) in 2016 prior to his knee injury

Missed all 2017 as a result

Came back in 2018 and helped establish the side as a genuine force before blowing out his other knee. Cost him a premiership medal

Missed most of 2019, returned round 15 but injured his ankle after just 3 games before returning for finals

In 2020/21 he missed one game. Was AA and John Worsfold medallist both years

He’s been the most prominent public face of the club virtually since the day he was drafted. Can’t go anywhere without being recognised and approached by people

Not once has he done anything to draw bad publicity to himself or the club. Shows genuine humility at all times

Fought his way back from reconstructions to both knees winning back to back B&F and AA honours
Yes, he’s overweight but have a look at a lot of Fijian Islanders - it’s a battle against genetics that is made harder by two knee reconstructions that limit his ability to train, particularly any high intensity running.

Despite all that and what he’s given to the club, there’s still people wanting to hang s**t on him

It’s unbelievable
Well when you put it like that…..

what’s a few kegs between friend?
 
Seems to be a bit of a meh player.
Not overly skilful, not overly fast or aggressive
He could nail down a regular spot but you'd kinda hope he gets overtaken but someone showing some sort of elite attributes at some stage in the near future

On SM-G973F using BigFooty.com mobile app
He can kick both sides of the body , has above average pace and was one of the only inside mids in our wafl team last year that would spot kick drop punts from a clearance rather than hack it forward.

He was also one of our best mids when we beat Collingwood last year playing on ball .

If he stays fit and gets to play in his preferred position I think he will have a break out year .

Having both xon and culley on ball should increase our tackle counts
 
I kind of get long burn vibes from Williams. A lot like Darcy Cameron, who only now has made a place for himself at AFL as a second ruck/forward at 27.

In my mind that’s what he projects as. He’s athletically very strong- nice leap, decent field kick for his size etc.
But I do think we need to start seeing more consistently games like v Geelong otherwise I do think he will be overtaken at the end of his current contract.

Unfortunately as WCEPhil noted when our last 3 starting rucks have been Gardiner, Cox & NN you automatically are going to be viewed with a different lens. I am happy to wait and see what he can bring with that 4th preseason.
 

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I kind of get long burn vibes from Williams. A lot like Darcy Cameron, who only now has made a place for himself at AFL as a second ruck/forward at 27.

In my mind that’s what he projects as. He’s athletically very strong- nice leap, decent field kick for his size etc.
But I do think we need to start seeing more consistently games like v Geelong otherwise I do think he will be overtaken at the end of his current contract.

Unfortunately as WCEPhil noted when our last 3 starting rucks have been Gardiner, Cox & NN you automatically are going to be viewed with a different lens. I am happy to wait and see what he can bring with that 4th preseason.

Yep agree he’s a long burn. I don’t mind us having just a solid ruckman after Nic Nat like a Nank or Witts. Most teams who win the flag don’t have the AA ruck. Melbourne the exception in 2021 but they’ve even doubled down and got two AA rucks now which is just a huge amount of your salary cap for one position.


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Yep agree he’s a long burn. I don’t mind us having just a solid ruckman after Nic Nat like a Nank or Witts. Most teams who win the flag don’t have the AA ruck. Melbourne the exception in 2021 but they’ve even doubled down and got two AA rucks now which is just a huge amount of your salary cap for one position.


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Agree. I think it is also important to note the value of those 'solid' ruckmen to their teams though. They perform much, much better with those players on-the-park compared to when they have their backups available (no different to us with NN). So even though they aren't the 'stars' or the media darlings of those teams - their contribution to performance is often top-5-player-at-the-club worthy.

So basically we want a ruckman who is very highly rated internally but not so much externally (meaning we get the high level performance from a mid-level pay).
 
I'm just not sure I see a solid starting ruckman at any stage in Bailey Williams position. Footy IQ is one of those things along with kicking that is very hard to teach. I would suggest Petch is in a very similar position to Bailey Williams however he is playing a much easier role on the field, isn't undersized and is able to use his athletic gifts on field.

I was stoked when we drafted williams but i was hoping he would grow to 202cm or so and improve his goal kicking. His lack of footy IQ wasn't quite as distinct as a junior. I hope it comes together for him but I have serious concerns. If you could put Jamiesons mind into Williams body you wouldn't have a top 2-3 ruck in the league but you'd have a guy that is just a tier below that and can dominate around the ground. I really hope Jamiesons progression continues as whilst beginning and coming from a much lower level he looks much more like a football player than Williams. Again he is undersized and doesn't have Williams athletic gifts but he's no slouch and could make a great second ruck who can also play key back.

Our other real second ruck option is purely due to Height in Edwards and while he has been groomed to be a Key Defender with his height now I just wonder if the club sees any hope in his ability to learn ruck craft as he could be that solid number 1 ruck. It might not happen till he's 26-28 but he's certainly the right size and is good around the ground whilst a little lacking athletically as a key back.
 
I'm just not sure I see a solid starting ruckman at any stage in Bailey Williams position. Footy IQ is one of those things along with kicking that is very hard to teach. I would suggest Petch is in a very similar position to Bailey Williams however he is playing a much easier role on the field, isn't undersized and is able to use his athletic gifts on field.

I was stoked when we drafted williams but i was hoping he would grow to 202cm or so and improve his goal kicking. His lack of footy IQ wasn't quite as distinct as a junior. I hope it comes together for him but I have serious concerns. If you could put Jamiesons mind into Williams body you wouldn't have a top 2-3 ruck in the league but you'd have a guy that is just a tier below that and can dominate around the ground. I really hope Jamiesons progression continues as whilst beginning and coming from a much lower level he looks much more like a football player than Williams. Again he is undersized and doesn't have Williams athletic gifts but he's no slouch and could make a great second ruck who can also play key back.

Our other real second ruck option is purely due to Height in Edwards and while he has been groomed to be a Key Defender with his height now I just wonder if the club sees any hope in his ability to learn ruck craft as he could be that solid number 1 ruck. It might not happen till he's 26-28 but he's certainly the right size and is good around the ground whilst a little lacking athletically as a key back.
Yeah I was stoked with Williams when he got him but I honestly don’t think he better now than he was 20. It’s probably not something people would find hearing but I genuinely think his reach is quite poor for for a 200cm player. His leap doesn’t offset it and physically he can’t go with other ruckmen even tho he is quite build.
 
From 2010 until he did his knee late 2016, Naitanui played 136 of a possible 162 games. The bulk of those missed games (11) were due to a persistent groin issue in 2013 and an Achilles (7) in 2016 prior to his knee injury

Missed all 2017 as a result

Came back in 2018 and helped establish the side as a genuine force before blowing out his other knee. Cost him a premiership medal

Missed most of 2019, returned round 15 but injured his ankle after just 3 games before returning for finals

In 2020/21 he missed one game. Was AA and John Worsfold medallist both years

He’s been the most prominent public face of the club virtually since the day he was drafted. Can’t go anywhere without being recognised and approached by people

Not once has he done anything to draw bad publicity to himself or the club. Shows genuine humility at all times

Fought his way back from reconstructions to both knees winning back to back B&F and AA honours
Yes, he’s overweight but have a look at a lot of Fijian Islanders - it’s a battle against genetics that is made harder by two knee reconstructions that limit his ability to train, particularly any high intensity running.

Despite all that and what he’s given to the club, there’s still people wanting to hang s**t on him

It’s unbelievable


I'm a massive fan and agree with all you've said - definitely don't like the hanging shit on him, very goldfish memory.

But the 60% vs 90% debate is a fair one I reckon. We have looked like we're playing a rotation down compared to other teams that can have an entire bench full of mids at times if they really need.

To me it's about how his ruck partner fits into the side - I think recently our 2nd ruck hasn't really been fit enough themselves to spend the time they're not rucking in the forward line all game and their impact hasn't been Nic-like enough to justify their own 60% gametime so it's thrown our rotations out of whack.

Assuming we're excluding Barnett from the conversation this year at least, think it's vital going forwards that Williams' fitness and forward presence is more consistent and that we find a role for Jamo that he plays outside ruck to a good degree. I don't see HEdwards as good enough in the ruck to cut it unfortunately. We need our second ruck on the ground most of the game and holding their own as a player so they're not taking up another bench rotation. Mason Cox as much as I hate him does a great job at worrying out at least one decent defender, so his spot on the ground is always justified outside the ruck even when he's not kicking goals. Can stay on the ground most of a game and not waste a rotation.

Both have a pretty big impact on team balance - if it's Bailey as a forward I think that works having Allen and Darling roaming while Bailey needs to be enough of a threat that a defender can't help double team the other two. It also probably means we don't have room for Waterman balance wise IMO.

Same with Jamo if he goes forward - needs to be enough of a presence and actually worry opposition slightly. I've harped on about this a little but I actually think fitting him in as a KPD works really well for balance despite it not being overly natural. Frees up one of Gov or Barrass to double team and intercept (their biggest issue is both of them having to lockdown defend at once I reckon). Allows us not having to name another defensive tall and have a bit more run. Gets Jamo into a role where he doesn't need to be as proactive and aggressive but can use his footy sense and athleticism to beat out a 2nd tall forward (this is in the dream scenario where we have a fit list and he doesn't have to 1-1 Tom Hawkins). Would probably let us play Waterman then as third tall forward or let Ryan play deeper with more run in our forward line than last season.

Think a fit list and progression from Jamo/Williams will let us get the best out of Nic this year. I also see those two as #2 rucks going forwards with Barnett also so would be a good year to work on that balance
 
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