Private Schools

[Deliverance]

With all the drama over schools funding recently, got me thinking. I'd be all for the extra money for private schools if it produced better students. But it seems a worldwide trend that private school kids do no better at school compared to public school kids of similar socioeconomic backgrounds and generally perform worse at Universities.
So why do parents and givernments waste money on private schooling?

 

[FreoGirl]

With all the drama over schools funding recently, got me thinking. I'd be all for the extra money for private schools if it produced better students. But it seems a worldwide trend that private school kids do no better at school compared to public school kids of similar socioeconomic backgrounds and generally perform worse at Universities.
So why do parents and givernments waste money on private schooling?

I always wonder where they get their stats from when they come up with this argument. I've just finished a degree as a mature age student. I had very few classes that were not private school dominated and found that public school kids really struggled 'to fit in'. Sadly, a lot of uni groups are very clicky. I spent just last night convincing a friend's daughter to "hang in there" as she is about to bail from her OT studies. Despite being at a public school for 'gifted students' she is struggling academically and socially. You tend to find more doctors, lawyers and accountants from private schools. Of course there's always exceptions either way.

I can only go by personal experiences.

Interestingly, Yeo, Cripps and Fyfe all attended Aquinas College in Perth. Peter Bell, Brad Hogg, Paul Duffield, Justin Langer and Quentin Lynch are also good examples.

 

[Deliverance]

I always wonder where they get their stats from when they come up with this argument. I've just finished a degree as a mature age student. I had very few classes that were not private school dominated and found that public school kids really struggled 'to fit in'. Sadly, a lot of uni groups are very clicky. I spent just last night convincing a friend's daughter to "hang in there" as she is about to bail from her OT studies. Despite being at a public school for 'gifted students' she is struggling academically and socially. You tend to find more doctors, lawyers and accountants from private schools. Of course there's always exceptions either way.

I can only go by personal experiences.

Interestingly, Yeo, Cripps and Fyfe all attended Aquinas College in Perth. Peter Bell, Brad Hogg, Paul Duffield, Justin Langer and Quentin Lynch are also good examples.

It's been pretty widely studied from memory, but I've never looked in to it seriously TBH. Like I said just got thinking about it recently with the funding debates. I'd actually love to hear from people who send their kids to privates as to why they do.

https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155

https://lens.monash.edu/2018/02/01/1308581/spending-more-on-private-schools-doesnt-guarantee-success

 

[FreoGirl]

It's been pretty widely studied from memory, but I've never looked in to it seriously TBH. Like I said just got thinking about it recently with the funding debates. I'd actually love to hear from people who send their kids to privates as to why they do.

https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155

https://lens.monash.edu/2018/02/01/1308581/spending-more-on-private-schools-doesnt-guarantee-success

we sent our son to the same school as Nat Fyfe

When he was looking for a job (uni break) he emailed an application to a potential employer - he received a call within half an hour and an interview the next day. He was hired on the spot - it was all based on what school he went to. It's what happens in Perth - the 'old boys club' really helps.

We had numerous reasons for sending our son to this particular school. We enrolled him the day he was born, but we still kept our minds open. We picked an all boys school because we knew he was probably going to be an only child (took us 6 years to have him), we were financially able to. and we knew this particular school had a good reputation for mate-ship and leadership.

From an early age he excelled at sport and we knew this was important to him. A lot of the non-private schools just don't provide the same facilities, coaches and opportunities in WA. This particular school just became a 'good fit'.

He had a really good experience and I am glad we were able to provide this for him. He is a tolerant, humble and generous young man. I know his home life has helped him to develop these traits, but I feel the school he went to helped him to flourish.

 

[Deliverance]

we sent our son to the same school as Nat Fyfe

When he was looking for a job (uni break) he emailed an application to a potential employer - he received a call within half an hour and an interview the next day. He was hired on the spot - it was all based on what school he went to. It's what happens in Perth - the 'old boys club' really helps.

We had numerous reasons for sending our son to this particular school. We enrolled him the day he was born, but we still kept our minds open. We picked an all boys school because we knew he was probably going to be an only child (took us 6 years to have him), we were financially able to. and we knew this particular school had a good reputation for mate-ship and leadership.

From an early age he excelled at sport and we knew this was important to him. A lot of the non-private schools just don't provide the same facilities, coaches and opportunities in WA. This particular school just became a 'good fit'.

He had a really good experience and I am glad we were able to provide this for him. He is a tolerant, humble and generous young man. I know his home life has helped him to develop these traits, but I feel the school he went to helped him to flourish.

That all makes sense. Is there no sports colleges over in Perth? A la Ben Symonds. Or TAC cup type comps. In Vic, private schools fondo don't add much to a sporting career.

 

[FreoGirl]

That all makes sense. Is there no sports colleges over in Perth? A la Ben Symonds. Or TAC cup type comps. In Vic, private schools fondo don't add much to a sporting career.

Not that I know of. They have specialist schools that say they have academies, but the private schools here run what's called the PSA. Some of the big names in sport will come from these schools, especially football, cricket, swimming, hockey and water polo. These kids are playing against each other at an elite level every week. They manage to attract Olympic coaches etc. Hale school has Kim Hughes as their cricket coach, Aquinas had an Olympic water polo and hockey coach.

Then you have some public schools that now run indigenous programs. but these are not open to all kids (restricted funding I guess). Some public schools have no sport at all now.

 

[Deliverance]

Not that I know of. They have specialist schools that say they have academies, but the private schools here run what's called the PSA. Some of the big names in sport will come from these schools, especially football, cricket, swimming, hockey and water polo. These kids are playing against each other at an elite level every week. They manage to attract Olympic coaches etc. Hale school has Kim Hughes as their cricket coach, Aquinas had an Olympic water polo and hockey coach.

Then you have some public schools that now run indigenous programs. but these are not open to all kids (restricted funding I guess). Some public schools have no sport at all now.

Wow! Very different over here. Private schools try to poach elite junior athletes from public schools and use them to boost the school reputation.

 

[raskolnikov]

Private religious schools that actively discriminate against gay teachers or students should not receive government funding.

 

[Present Not Past]

Private schools should not receive public funding - problem solved.

 

[RAPPA]

Aren't they private for a reason? If they're now going to receive government funding then their fees should drop as a tied condition to the funding.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Aren't they private for a reason? If they're now going to receive government funding then their fees should drop as a tied condition to the funding.

Pretty sure this argument has been had on here numerous times over the years.

Real rough figures.

3.6 million kids enrolled in school

roughly one third are in private and two thirds public, so

1.2 million v
2.4 million

65% in government schools
21% in Catholic schools
14% in independent schools

In 2014-15 funding was made up of
$14.9 billion federal
$38.1 billion state
$53 billion in total

$40.3 billion went to public schools
$12.8 billion went to private schools

Commonwealth funding
36.2% to public schools
63.8% to private schools

State funding
91.5% to public schools
8.5% to private schools

The Commonwealth give their money to the states and the Catholic education system and they decided who gets what, irrespective of Commonwealth guidelines.

iirc, private students received about $4,000 per student, per annum less in state and federal funding compared with a public student.
$4.8 billion. Year on year.

I pay taxes, some goes to public education, some of it goes to private education. I have one daughter in private secondary school with the second one starting next year, so on top of the taxes, I also pay fees from my after tax wages. I'm paying for everyone else's kids as well as my own.

 

[Messenger]

With all the drama over schools funding recently, got me thinking. I'd be all for the extra money for private schools if it produced better students. But it seems a worldwide trend that private school kids do no better at school compared to public school kids of similar socioeconomic backgrounds and generally perform worse at Universities.
So why do parents and givernments waste money on private schooling?

We've spent the money on private school because the local high school my son is zoned to is a glorified TAFE college.

 

[Deliverance]

Pretty sure this argument has been had on here numerous times over the years.

Real rough figures.

3.6 million kids enrolled in school

roughly one third are in private and two thirds public, so

1.2 million v
2.4 million

65% in government schools
21% in Catholic schools
14% in independent schools

In 2014-15 funding was made up of
$14.9 billion federal
$38.1 billion state
$53 billion in total

$40.3 billion went to public schools
$12.8 billion went to private schools

Commonwealth funding
36.2% to public schools
63.8% to private schools

State funding
91.5% to public schools
8.5% to private schools

The Commonwealth give their money to the states and the Catholic education system and they decided who gets what, irrespective of Commonwealth guidelines.

iirc, private students received about $4,000 per student, per annum less in state and federal funding compared with a public student.
$4.8 billion. Year on year.

I pay taxes, some goes to public education, some of it goes to private education. I have one daughter in private secondary school with the second one starting next year, so on top of the taxes, I also pay fees from my after tax wages. I'm paying for everyone else's kids as well as my own.

I guess if it makes you feel better you could think of it this way. We all pay taxes that go towards everyone's education. You're paying extra for the fancy buildings and playing grounds.

 

[Jack Richards]

So why do parents and givernments waste money on private schooling?

Many reasons such as:
- The belief that they handle discipline a lot better than public schooling.
- Their parents and the parents before them have always been schooled in the private sector.
- The myth that they will get a better education if they spend more money (If I was to send my kid to the likes of Wesley or Hailbury I would expect them to get A grade results for the money I spend).


I went to a Private Boarding School and some of the blokes I went to school with ended up as Tradies so the better education myth is busted. You can forget the less behaviour issues as some students got busted with marijuana and alcohol and the all girls school down the road was just as bad.

I have the same argument with my wife and parents with our sons. Yes we can be picky and scour the forums on which schools are the best in the area and some might handle discipline better than others. But there will always be issues. Some of the best schools in my local area are public.

 

[Present Not Past]

Whether parents can afford to send their children to private schools or not, most will send them to selective schools if they are accepted.

 

[Silent Alarm]

I'm a public school boy and though middle class, my working class background has 'come to haunt me' in a sense. I'm well educated and decently intelligent, but I have a hard time accepting the shit other people (re: private school kids) do and also lack the ins they do.

For example, I know kids at private schools who did ludicrous internships which revolved around getting there at 7 and getting home at 7, not being paid, and basically making coffees every single day and being berated for opening the door at the wrong time. And these are for 'media companies' that, even if you get a gig, milk you silly for 41k while you write about Nicky Minaj and Huxtaburger. You're being used and abused and not even with the 21 bucks an hour that Glue clothing would give you.

To me this is just insanity but to them they see it as something you do, a rite of passage, and the first step on an unbalanced ladder they hope becomes a cherry picker.

Privately educated people get that and whether it's good or bad, sucking dick is important in this life.

Of course, there are also people from absolute shitholes whose parents aren't intelligent or even decent people, who are forced to go to Claremont/Kew for school because if they went to their shitty suburbs' public school, they'd struggle with even having a teacher who had time to deliver information. These kids grow up with entitlement and smuggery and end up complete failures.

 

[Silent Alarm]

We've spent the money on private school because the local high school my son is zoned to is a glorified TAFE college.

That doesn't make sense. TAFE is higher education. And what's wrong with that?

It sounds like you live in a bad suburb. I'd say schools like Camberwell High, University High, Fitzroy, Collingwood College would churn out as many good kids as Wesley, PEGS.

 

[Seeds]

Private schools do better cos they get the best kids. Richer families kids tend to have better genes and have more time to study as they dont have to work part time jobs during high school. And on top of this private schools raid public schools and put the smartest public school kids on partial scholarships.

As a result it is impossible to determine wherher private schools are better educators then public schools.

 

[Scotland]

Being rich is not the same as being smart. Sure there's a correlation and a rich area full of doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. should breed smarter children but I've met plenty of dumb rich kids.

If you took a year 8 class from an elite private school and one from a public school in a dodgy area and switched them over for the 5 year duration of high school what do you think would happen? The elite group go from class sizes of 20-something to 30+ and teachers teaching to teachers spending most of their time managing the behaviour of dickheads. Average kids from the dodgy group stop being left behind and are encouraged to excel, aren't led astray as much, have an opportunity for more interaction with their teachers etc. Plus they get to go on ski trips and row boats.

 

[Seeds]

Being rich is not the same as being smart. Sure there's a correlation and a rich area full of doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. should breed smarter children but I've met plenty of dumb rich kids.

If you took a year 8 class from an elite private school and one from a public school in a dodgy area and switched them over for the 5 year duration of high school what do you think would happen? The elite group go from class sizes of 20-something to 30+ and teachers teaching to teachers spending most of their time managing the behaviour of dickheads. Average kids from the dodgy group stop being left behind and are encouraged to excel, aren't led astray as much, have an opportunity for more interaction with their teachers etc. Plus they get to go on ski trips and row boats.

Im referring to the positive correlation only and its probably a fairly weak correlation but it is there.

Ive been to both dodgy public high schools and rich private schools. In both cases class sizes were the same. Which schools have class sizes of 30 plus?

Agree on the issues for dealing with disruption. Its probably the main difference beteen private and public. Well that and swimming pools, overseas camps and religous instruction.

 

[Scotland]

Im referring to the positive correlation only.

Ive been to both dodgy public high schools and rich private schools. In both cases class sizes were the same. Which schools have class sizes of 30 plus?

Agree on the issues fo dealing with disruption. Its probabyl the main difference beteen private and public.

Some public schools stretched for resources have 30+ class sizes.

 

[Seeds]

Some public schools stretched for resources have 30+ class sizes.

Actually it seems like private secondary schools might have slightly larger class sizes then public secondary schools. In any case its definately not 30. 30 would only be an extreme outlier.

"Secondary schools had average class sizes (23 students), while public high schools had slightly smaller than average class sizes, with 22 students compared with the average 23".

 

[Deliverance]

If you took a year 8 class from an elite private school and one from a public school in a dodgy area and switched them over for the 5 year duration of high school what do you think would happen? .

My money would be on the private school teachers quitting.

 

[Messenger]

That doesn't make sense. TAFE is higher education. And what's wrong with that?

It sounds like you live in a bad suburb. I'd say schools like Camberwell High, University High, Fitzroy, Collingwood College would churn out as many good kids as Wesley, PEGS.

You’ve come a long way from being the wide eyed young man who came to Melbs to broaden his horizons.

Why do you differentiate yourself as a high school that streams people into building, electrician training and plumbing, oh and open a “sports academy”?

Because you suck at teaching maths, science and English. And have done forever.

Many of my neighbours are builders and sparkies. Great people that make a great living. My son has not interests in the trades and wants to study in the STEM field.

 

[superfraser]

You’ve come a long way from being the wide eyed young man who came to Melbs to broaden his horizons.

Why do you differentiate yourself as a high school that streams people into building, electrician training and plumbing, oh and open a “sports academy”?

Because you suck at teaching maths, science and English. And have done forever.

Many of my neighbours are builders and sparkies. Great people that make a great living. My son has not interests in the trades and wants to study in the STEM field.

Catering to their communities mate.

Public Schools in Melbourne's most affluent suburbs are far more likely to run a strong STEM program, high-level VCE Maths and subjects like Philosophy. Suburbs with a large Asian contingent are more likely to prioritize 'the Asian 5' and care a bit less about something like Philosophy. Schools in disadvantaged communities will focus on the trades and VCAL, because it provides a better pathway for their students than a failing VCE program.

If you're very lucky, your local public school will be incredibly well run and will offer a diverse range of programs that are all reasonably successful, but these are few and far between.