Autopsy Roast & toast vs Saints, changes for Cotchin’s final home game

[Vassp]

Ball use is fine by our Mids especially when we have Bolton, Dusty and short running through as receivers

Once again you are missing the Forrest for the trees

Centre bounces we are fine and score above afl level when we win them

I am missing something? Because the way I see it our mids could connect with the forwards a lot better.

 

[Muddiemoose]

I am missing something? Because the way I see it our mids could connect with the forwards a lot better.

What forwards?
A 35 year old key position forward is the only genuine marking target in our forward line

Throw in a handful of kids and a depth utility tall the fact that we are ranked 7th among other clubs for marks inside 50 and 6th for efficiency is actually pretty impressive

It’s the amount of times the ball actually makes it that far that’s the issue and that is due to our outside runners and wings failing to capitulate on the amount of rebound 50s we get (we are ranked number 1 in the comp for winning the ball in our back half)

The numbers speak for themselves, centre clearances we are above ave, stoppage clearances we are par

However we are among the worst team in the comp for marks so it shows we aren’t spreading enough to gain field position

Once again wingers and outside Mids

So our inside Mids aren’t the issue it’s the outside runners and wings

 

[Coach_Required]

What forwards?
A 35 year old key position forward is the only genuine marking target in our forward line

Throw in a handful of kids and a depth utility tall the fact that we are ranked 7th among other clubs for marks inside 50 and 6th for efficiency is actually pretty impressive

It’s the amount of times the ball actually makes it that far that’s the issue and that is due to our outside runners and wings failing to capitulate on the amount of rebound 50s we get (we are ranked number 1 in the comp for winning the ball in our back half)

The numbers speak for themselves, centre clearances we are above ave, stoppage clearances we are par

However we are among the worst team in the comp for marks so it shows we aren’t spreading enough to gain field position

Once again wingers and outside Mids

So our inside Mids aren’t the issue it’s the outside runners and wings

That is a great post. Normally I read posts and think ok fair enough, but I still disagree, but your post I went wow, I thought it was our inability to win the ball so must be our Mids. I still would like to see us win more centre clearances; the Bont still gives me nightmares from a few weeks ago.

 

[Muddiemoose]

That is a great post. Normally I read posts and think ok fair enough but I disagree but your post I went wow, I thought it was our inability to win the ball so must be our Mids. I still would like to see us win more centre clearances; the Bont still gives me nightmares from a few weeks ago.

Yeah it’s still very much a concern that when we have that 1 player really start to dominate against us we lack the ability to shut it down or even at least slow it down

The solution that comes to mind is of course running a hard tag but I don’t even know if that’s worth to have a dedicated tagger in the side because the reality is most weeks they won’t be needed

Sure it’s handy to have every couple of weeks against a Bont or Neale but dunno if it’s worth changing the entire midfield mix just to have one either especially if it risks the overall effectiveness of the midfield unit every other week

One thing to note re the Bont example is that in round 4 when we only lost to the dogs by 5 points although the Bont played alright he didn’t dominate, but in that game we had Hopper go head to head with him and have a big impact on the game… and in the dogs game the other week Hopper went down with the concussion so maybe because Hopper went down we didn’t have a decent match up for him either

 

[tora tora tora]

Problem being, as plenty have alluded to, Graham is nowhere near the midfielder Dusty, Taranto, Prestia, Hopper, Bolton, Baker, or even Cotch (right now) is - or Jack Ross for that matter.
So he shouldn't and doesn't get the gig in there.
But they are obsessed with playing him, so they find a less suitable or any role for him.
On team balance, he doesn't play!

The game Dow just had. Wow. Impressive. Should be given a run of games at the expense of Graham, Hopper or Cotch. Cotch can go round in the back of a limo and wave to the crowd. Take Jack R with him. Bauer was quite good.

These first qtr, first half leads that we concede.

We are not gaining enough benefit from Nank, Soldo. Kicking 8 10 goals. Conceding heaps.

Smashed by St.Kilda? Rest the old brigade. Grimes, Cotch, both wingers. Save Hopper for 24

Sonsie, IN Ryan IN. Cumbo IN, MRJ IN, Brown IN

 

[tunksy]

out: soldo mansell pickett graham
In: cotchin Cumberland rioli-jr hopper

 

[lumpinee]

I remember(?) after the 2021 draft the club stated that we were looking more to players that had great foot skills due to the stand rule and how it had opened up the game. And then the next year we picked up Taranto and Hopper because we were getting smashed in the middle???

Dimmer

 

[Groupie_]

please let chimp lead the team out this week

 

[Truetiger]

please let chimp lead the team out this week

Guaranteed, this will happen. I would even make him captain for the game

 

[Groupie_]

Guaranteed, this will happen. I would even make him captain for the game

so its guaranteed not to happen going off your track record

 

[Truetiger]

so its guaranteed not to happen going off your track record

Lol my record not that bad haha

 

[Vassp]

What forwards?
A 35 year old key position forward is the only genuine marking target in our forward line

Throw in a handful of kids and a depth utility tall the fact that we are ranked 7th among other clubs for marks inside 50 and 6th for efficiency is actually pretty impressive

It’s the amount of times the ball actually makes it that far that’s the issue and that is due to our outside runners and wings failing to capitulate on the amount of rebound 50s we get (we are ranked number 1 in the comp for winning the ball in our back half)

The numbers speak for themselves, centre clearances we are above ave, stoppage clearances we are par

However we are among the worst team in the comp for marks so it shows we aren’t spreading enough to gain field position

Once again wingers and outside Mids

So our inside Mids aren’t the issue it’s the outside runners and wings

Stats don't tell the whole story, there are a lot of hidden idiosyncrasies between the ball user and the player making space to receive the ball - this is lost in stats.
A lot of this falls on the hands of TT. I said it a million times, he gets a lot of ball but he doesn't dispose of the ball like a good midfielder should.
I know some here think he is Brownlow material ( a million miles off) and look at the stats, but his disposal is horrid, only good for a few close handballs and scrub kicks off the ground. This is a major problem for us as Dion is pretty much cooked and TT is getting the first crack and using the ball badly where it would benefit us more if the ball was in the hands of someone who could use the ball much better.
That leaves us with Ross (who is improving) Breaks the game open.
Dow (who I thought was excellent) Breaks the game open.
Dusty (who shows packets of brillince) Breaks the game open.
Bolton who has brilliant speed (breaks the game apart)
Hopper (who plays a little like TT) (doesn't break the game open)
TT who does as stated above (doesn't break the game open)
AND STILL, we were getting smashed all over the park by the Saints.

And yes that still leaves us with a dysfunctional forward line, but with better ball use we would be hitting more targets and better leading forward would offer more targets. The two have to work together.

Again I go back to our team balance. Why is Jack R up against multiple opponents nearly all the time?
The one guy who could lead and make space and help out was crucified by Dimma and lost all his confidence (Cumbo).
He is now over-trying because we didn't manage him well.

 

[The Mighty]

Yeah it’s still very much a concern that when we have that 1 player really start to dominate against us we lack the ability to shut it down or even at least slow it down

The solution that comes to mind is of course running a hard tag but I don’t even know if that’s worth to have a dedicated tagger in the side because the reality is most weeks they won’t be needed

Sure it’s handy to have every couple of weeks against a Bont or Neale but dunno if it’s worth changing the entire midfield mix just to have one either especially if it risks the overall effectiveness of the midfield unit every other week

One thing to note re the Bont example is that in round 4 when we only lost to the dogs by 5 points although the Bont played alright he didn’t dominate, but in that game we had Hopper go head to head with him and have a big impact on the game… and in the dogs game the other week Hopper went down with the concussion so maybe because Hopper went down we didn’t have a decent match up for him either

I can handle getting cut up by the Bont he is elite.

What I really cannot handle is that campaignwer Gresham who carves us up every time we play the Saints ...every F'n time he is playing us he carves us.

 

[Groupie_]

I can handle getting cut up by the Bont he is elite.

What I really cannot handle is that campaignwer Gresham who carves us up every time we play the Saints ...every F'n time he is playing us he carves us.

plays his grand final

 

[DickieKnee]

I can handle getting cut up by the Bont he is elite.

What I really cannot handle is that campaignwer Gresham who carves us up every time we play the Saints ...every F'n time he is playing us he carves us.

And sidearse at pies

 

[Muddiemoose]

Stats don't tell the whole story, there are a lot of hidden idiosyncrasies between the ball user and the player making space to receive the ball - this is lost in stats.
A lot of this falls on the hands of TT. I said it a million times, he gets a lot of ball but he doesn't dispose of the ball like a good midfielder should.
I know some here think he is Brownlow material ( a million miles off) and look at the stats, but his disposal is horrid, only good for a few close handballs and scrub kicks off the ground. This is a major problem for us as Dion is pretty much cooked and TT is getting the first crack and using the ball badly where it would benefit us more if the ball was in the hands of someone who could use the ball much better.
That leaves us with Ross (who is improving) Breaks the game open.
Dow (who I thought was excellent) Breaks the game open.
Dusty (who shows packets of brillince) Breaks the game open.
Bolton who has brilliant speed (breaks the game apart)
Hopper (who plays a little like TT) (doesn't break the game open)
TT who does as stated above (doesn't break the game open)
AND STILL, we were getting smashed all over the park by the Saints.

And yes that still leaves us with a dysfunctional forward line, but with better ball use we would be hitting more targets and better leading forward would offer more targets. The two have to work together.

Again I go back to our team balance. Why is Jack R up against multiple opponents nearly all the time?
The one guy who could lead and make space and help out was crucified by Dimma and lost all his confidence (Cumbo).
He is now over-trying because we didn't manage him well.

I think you are a little bit confused on the difference between the roles of inside and outside Mids

Inside Mids generally don’t break the game open, that’s the runners on the outsides job to do
Of course there are exceptions but we are talking about probably 5 players in the entire league… we already have one in Bolton

That’s like expecting a rebounding half back to play a lockdown role

Tarantos job as an inside mid is to win us first use, trystop the opponents to get a clearance and generate clearances for us

He absolutely does that he is leading the club for

Contested possies
Total clearance
Centre clearance
Stoppage clearance
Tackles

Top 3 for
Meters gained
Score involvements

If you think that he is the issue with our current side I really don’t know what to tell you

The way you are describing the game is as if every scoring chain either way is based off a stoppage when that is far from the case

 

[Tiges1229]

plays his grand final

Who cares about shitkilda they will never ever win a flag ,loser flogs

 

[Rubber Hips]

PLAYER	INJURY	ESTIMATED RETURN
Judson Clarke	Shoulder	Season
Mate Colina	Back	5-10 weeks
Josh Gibcus	Hamstring	Season
Jacob Hopper 2 Jacob Hopper Age 27 Ht 187cm Wt 86kg Pos. Mid Career Season Last 5 D 21.0 5star K 9.9 4star HB 11.1 5star M 2.9 3star T 4.5 5star CL 4.3 5star D 17.6 4star K 8.8 4star HB 8.9 4star M 2.4 3star T 4.6 5star CL 4.0 5star D 18.6 5star K 8.4 4star HB 10.2 5star M 4.0 4star T 3.8 5star CL 3.4 5star	Concussion	1-2 weeks
Tom Lynch	Foot	Season
Ben Miller	Concussion	1-2 weeks
Daniel Rioli 17 Daniel Rioli Age 27 Ht 179cm Wt 78kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 11.2 3star K 5.8 2star HB 5.4 4star M 2.7 3star T 3.2 5star MG 179.2 3star D 8.1 2star K 4.9 2star HB 3.3 2star M 2.0 2star T 2.6 4star MG 144.9 3star D 9.0 3star K 3.8 2star HB 5.2 4star M 0.8 1star T 3.8 5star MG 160.2 3star	Ankle	Test
Kaleb Smith	Ankle	Season

 

[tiger_tough]

In: Sonsie, Hopper, MRJ, Cotchin, Banks, Ryan
Out: McIntosh, Graham, Pickett, Mansell, Soldo, Coulthard

 

[Tiges1229]

PLAYER	INJURY	ESTIMATED RETURN
Judson Clarke	Shoulder	Season
Mate Colina	Back	5-10 weeks
Josh Gibcus	Hamstring	Season
Jacob Hopper	Concussion	1-2 weeks
Tom Lynch	Foot	Season
Ben Miller	Concussion	1-2 weeks
Daniel Rioli	Ankle	Test
Kaleb Smith	Ankle	Season

Gibcus 6 week hammy turn into two years out , Meehan shoukd be charged , Meehan probably a scum supporter

 

[RJK Tiger]

What forwards?
A 35 year old key position forward is the only genuine marking target in our forward line

Throw in a handful of kids and a depth utility tall the fact that we are ranked 7th among other clubs for marks inside 50 and 6th for efficiency is actually pretty impressive

It’s the amount of times the ball actually makes it that far that’s the issue and that is due to our outside runners and wings failing to capitulate on the amount of rebound 50s we get (we are ranked number 1 in the comp for winning the ball in our back half)

The numbers speak for themselves, centre clearances we are above ave, stoppage clearances we are par

However we are among the worst team in the comp for marks so it shows we aren’t spreading enough to gain field position

Once again wingers and outside Mids

So our inside Mids aren’t the issue it’s the outside runners and wings

We had one marking forward in 2017 - the difference was we made a structure that worked with what we had VS the shitshow of whatever you call what we have this year.

not sure if i would say its just been kids down there either. Jack, Dusty, Bolton, Baker -been getting down there. The 2017 forwardline was far younger also.


Here's an idea if you only have 1 marking forward - play some speed down there.... Maybe go with a combination of Jack, Bolton, Dan Rioli, MRJ, Baker (rotating), Coulthard Clarke, Cumberland - load up on speed and creative players and try that for a bit.

Then down back, maybe try Balta, Young Grimes, Vlaustin, Short, Baker, Broad, Mansell, Trezive.



B: Baker Balta Broad
HB Vlaustin Young Short
C: Pickett Taranto Banks
HF: D.Rioli Dusty Boton
F: MRJ Riewoldt, Cumberland/Bauer
C: Toby Hopper Prestia

Bench:from Graham. Mansell. Ross. Dow. Miller. Soldo/Ryan

 

[Muddiemoose]

We had one marking forward in 2017 - the difference was we made a structure that worked with what we had VS the shitshow of whatever you call what we have this year.

not sure if i would say its just been kids down there either. Jack, Dusty, Bolton, Baker -been getting down there. The 2017 forwardline was far younger also.


Here's an idea if you only have 1 marking forward - play some speed down there.... Maybe go with a combination of Jack, Bolton, Dan Rioli, MRJ, Baker (rotating), Coulthard Clarke, Cumberland - load up on speed and creative players and try that for a bit.

Then down back, maybe try Balta, Young Grimes, Vlaustin, Short, Baker, Broad, Mansell, Trezive.



B: Baker Balta Broad
HB Vlaustin Young Short
C: Pickett Taranto Banks
HF: D.Rioli Dusty Boton
F: MRJ Riewoldt, Cumberland/Bauer
C: Toby Hopper Prestia

Bench:from Graham. Mansell. Ross. Dow. Miller. Soldo/Ryan

Incorrect.
We had one key position forward in 2017

We had multiple marking forwards
Dusty 103
Caddy took 92 marks for the year (that’s more than what Jack has taken this year)

Castagna took 74
Jack 138

We also had Townsend as a marking target for finals

This year our forwards marking totals are
Jack 88
Dusty 85
Bolton 68
Pickett 53

 

[Rubber Hips]

Gibcus 6 week hammy turn into two years out , Meehan shoukd be charged , Meehan probably a scum supporter

Gibcus has certainly been mis managed…it’s a hammy not a leg amputation ffs

and what’s with Mate Colina 5-10 weeks…wtf? Season will be over in 2 …not that he’s needed


and where is Cumbo…suddenly not concussed?


our back of house has deteriorated
no one has a clue or they’re asking a monkey to guess the prognosis

 

[RJK Tiger]

Incorrect.
We had one key position forward in 2017

We had multiple marking forwards
Dusty 103
Caddy took 92 marks for the year (that’s more than what Jack has taken this year)

Castagna took 74
Jack 138

We also had Townsend as a marking target for finals

This year our forwards marking totals are
Jack 88
Dusty 85
Bolton 68
Pickett 53

Not sure what i am incorrect on. We played 1 Key position marking forward in 2017, surrounded by pressure tackling players to create the chaos. Sure Caddy & Gerogie got more marks - that the beauty of "chaos" - it gives you more chances to get uncontested marks due to turnovers etc.

Caddy took 92 marks - 81 of which were uncontested.

Georgie took 74 marks, 66 of which were uncontested.

If you are taking only 1 contested mark every 2-3 games, that does not make you a marking forward. Come on muddy, you know this mate.

There is no reason that Castagna should be taking more marks than a guy like Bolton, outside of "poor football"

Has the club even tried to play a mid-sized marking forward in the Caddy role? Cumberland could have been playing it all year, but they didn't

We won playing Chaos ball, not marking forwards. The Bulldogs also only had 1 marking forward in 2016 in T.Boyd. There are other ways to play if your smart & brave about it

 

[shaky]

I agree with moving on from Macca. Thanks for your service but time to go Macca. But we have to be realistic … Prestia and Grimes are both contracted for 2024 (and Grimes as it stands is captain), and neither are tradeable, so let’s keep discussion on list management to what’s actually viable.

We should also move on from Pickett. His head is not in the game, he gives away stupid frees every week, and he provides nothing up forward. Thanks for your service Marlion, but at your age and our list status your time is up.

If we were a flag chance in 2024 I’d be happy for Jack to go on, but unless something huge happens in the pre-season we are not, so Jack should finish up and I think he will. A Tiger legend.

I’d also trade out Soldo. We can’t play both Nank and Soldo, and Soldo is 28yo at start of 2024 and has trade value. He won’t have value in another 12-months. We’d get a pick around 30, so just do it and add a depth ruckman to our list in the off-season (we can also get one in mid-season draft if Nank goes down). It’s time to release Ryan and develop him for the future. He’s a ruck, not a forward.

And I know we’ve just resigned him, but I’d look to trade out Broad. He’s 31yo start of 2024 and also has trade value for a contender. We’d get a late second for Broady. A win/win. But with Broad gone we can give more opportunity to Trezise, Brown and even Bauer in those roles. And we’ve seen how quick the cliff comes, and Broad has been very average the last 3-4 games after a good first half of season.

So that means out:

Cotch: 33yo
Jack: 34yo
Broad: 31yo (start of season age)
Castagna: 27yo
Tarrant: 34yo
Macca: 30yo (start of season age)
Pickett: 32yo
Soldo: 28yo

We’d then have approx picks: 25 - 35 (Soldo) - 40 (Broad) - 44 - 62 - 80

* I’d be willing to hold Graham as he had a limited pre-season and is only 26yo start of 2024. If a pick in the 20’s came our way I’d consider it, but he’s worth keeping IMO.

And clearing out those players and getting 4-5 draftees takes us from about 3rd oldest list to one of the youngest in one off-season, without losing any highly valuable on-field commodities.

And it wouldn’t hurt culture, as it’s clear we need to gut the list a little and we don’t owe Macca or Pickett anything beyond their 2 flags.

And this is why we need a new coach and not mini… need someone who can make some tough list calls that doesn’t have relationships with these guys.

Then end of 2024 Grimes and potentially Prestia retire, and the only 32+ guys 2025 onwards are Lynch and Dusty.

I actually believe our youth (under 22yo) is better than heading into 2017 … they just need more opportunity and a new coaching voice.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Just read this post so don’t know if this has been pointed out by someone else, but I believe Pickett has triggered and extension in his contact for next year, so I don’t think we can move him on that easily.