Toast Ross Lyon returns to St.Kilda #UnfinishedBusiness

[SaintsSeptember]

As with most list management calls, the obviously good ones like Crouch aren't the issue. Everyone here was in favour of getting him, and we were happy we held out and got him for free. Great work.

The only clear problem I can see with his list management was the Hill negotiation. (Maybe also picking up a bunch of older guys to fill gaps but that feels more like club strategy.)

Everyone on here wanted Hill but it was immediately really clear we overpaid. A first, a second, a fourth and Acres felt like a huge price to everyone, and it's proven to be the case. He needed Hill to turn out an absolute superstar to justify that and obviously that hasn't happened.

Paying that huge price hurt both our 2019 and 2020 drafts, and so the only draft-age players we got in two full years were Byrnes, Connolly, Jack Bell, Allison, Heath. If he goes, that will be why.

Hill wasn't a talent identification issue, everyone knew who and what he was .
Gallagher would have had an indication as to how bad the club ( Ratten etc ) wanted him. He may have been under instruction to "not let this one go ".
The only good thing about the Hill trade was that by pure dumb luck our 2020 second was practically worthless ( 2020 draft ).

I'd say he did a reasonable job of getting both Hill and Howard in with that single first round pick. We probably gave up Caleb Serong and Acres for Hill and Howard. Paddy was just a sugar rush.
We needed Howard , but Serong would be really nice too.

Meanwhile our recruiting manager has left after only 2 years in the job.

Chris Toce who was part time at Collingwood before he came to the Saints , and has worked his way up , is in charge now and this will be his first Draft.
Not sure how much involvement Chris had, but he was NSW recruiting manager the year we traded for Steele.
He was S.A.manager the year we drafted Wilkie. Hard to tell from the outside if he is very good, i'd kind of prefer to bring in an outsider.

Both Libratore ( National Recruiting Manager ) and Toce ( State Recruiting Manager -Vic) were surely in the hot seat during the Alison draft.

Meanwhile.....anyone want to hazard a guess ( or state their knowledge ) about what Trout is doing?
Its kind of funny.

 

[bergholt]

Meanwhile.....anyone want to hazard a guess ( or state their knowledge ) about what Trout is doing?

Isn't he at Essendon now?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Meanwhile in the King household over the off season.
A couple of people who were kids in 2009/2010.

Hey Max, want to go hang out at the mall or something?
Sorry Ben, I'm catching up with Lenny and Harves for Coffee, then afterwards Dal invited me to sit in the coaches box for the women's game.
We're having a BBQ at Ross's house tomorrow, sorry , Saints only.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I've been consistent all the way through. We are getting kids now which is arse ways about but at least we have worked it out. I'm happy to see what we are going to do under Ross and hopefully we are building to something in a couple of years. I'll be happy if we are a tough competitive outfit with systems and structure. At least the kids won't be learning bad habits.

We have to nail those draft picks and Chris Toce probably has the club and plenty of administrators careers in his hands this trade period. Especially if we are trading out of next year's draft to go all in on this one.

I'm just happy that the club has finally worked out that what they were doing wasn't the right path. They have pretty much done most of what I've been asking for so far. Pretty confident that they might finally have got themselves aimed in the right direction now.

When Gallagher arrived in 2018, we had the 4th youngest list with the 2nd least experienced list (games per player). Our most experienced players were Sam Gilbert and Jarryn Geary and Gilbert the ONLY player over 30 so I doubt very very very much that getting more kids then was on any bodies agenda.

That was remedied in the first year and since then the mix has changed each year to the where we are now where we will be focussing on the draft and trying to add some free agents (De Goey types) to up the standard and maintain the age and experience profile.

Even our moneyball free agent picks are getting younger - Zaine Cordy's only 25.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Isn't he at Essendon now?

Recruiter

 

[stavro#4]

I'm not that down on our list don't get me wrong. A decent coach probably has them playing finals the last 2 years but I'm critical about the way we did it. We built for immediate impact and gave up the future to do it then skimped on the coaching and support crew. Howard's fine, I just wouldn't have traded for him and Ryder with a high pick at that point. It was the time to draft and now instead of having a bunch of kids that came through together we have a bit of a messy list that Ross is going to have to extract every drop from early and hope the new kids are better than most of what we have drafted in the last decade.

Crouch and Steele are two of the better 2 way mids so he should have that.

Do me a favour.

List what we gave up in the draft period including the players taken in that draft pick.

I suggest you are only going to be upset about Serong.

So the Net gain more than covers the loss

 

[bergholt]

Paying that huge price hurt both our 2019 and 2020 drafts, and so the only draft-age players we got in two full years were Byrnes, Connolly, Jack Bell, Allison, Heath. If he goes, that will be why.

Actually looking closer at this, whether it's Gags or the club's strategy, we really haven't taken many draft age players in his tenure:

2012: Wright, White, Murdoch, Saunders, Templeton
2013: Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Templeton
2014: McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Lonie, Payne
2015: Gresham, White, Rice, O'Kearney
2016: Battle, Phillips
2017: Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, Langlands
2018: King, Bytel
2019: Byrnes, Connolly, Bell
2020: Allison, Heath
2021: Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Windhager, Adams, Kyle, Peris

So in three full years between 2018 and 2020 we only took 7 draft-age players, with only 1 of them looking likely to make it (King). Surely that's going to leave a huge list hole.

 

[PostmanBish]

Need Plugger back as forward coach- no need to talk, just stare at the forwards and they will do the right thing.

"Elbow Day" could be a thing ...

More seriously, I'd love to see Plugger working with King and the rest of the big forwards. At the very least, he'd sort out their routines so they were consistent, giving them the best chance of kicking 60%+

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm not that down on our list don't get me wrong. A decent coach probably has them playing finals the last 2 years but I'm critical about the way we did it. We built for immediate impact and gave up the future to do it then skimped on the coaching and support crew. Howard's fine, I just wouldn't have traded for him and Ryder with a high pick at that point. It was the time to draft and now instead of having a bunch of kids that came through together we have a bit of a messy list that Ross is going to have to extract every drop from early and hope the new kids are better than most of what we have drafted in the last decade.

Crouch and Steele are two of the better 2 way mids so he should have that.

We would have got smashed each and every week and the 'kids' would have all left, just like what is happening at North now.

 

[sammm]

Until this year Ratten has had virtually no say in drafting or trading , just when he gets a say they sack him

That Is like most clubs. If the coach has too much say they will only look at short term. Maybe that's why first time round with Lyon we had lousy picks.

 

[stavro#4]

That Is like most clubs. If the coach has too much say they will only look at short term. Maybe that's why first time round with Lyon we had lousy picks.

Richo landed Ben Long by being overly involved.

Just leave the drafting to the recruiters.

And coaches should focus on coaching.

 

[Sun Ra]

Meanwhile in the King household over the off season.
A couple of people who were kids in 2009/2010.

Hey Max, want to go hang out at the mall or something?
Sorry Ben, I'm catching up with Lenny and Harves for Coffee, then afterwards Dal invited me to sit in the coaches box for the women's game.
We're having a BBQ at Ross's house tomorrow, sorry , Saints only.

One of the less known positives of having both the King boys at the club is if we get both to 100 games, the chances of one of them producing twin boys would be higher than your average Joe I would think. Ideally they should both marry twins just to sharpen the odds.

 

[DougalHoward]

One of the less known positives of having both the King boys at the club is if we get both to 100 games, the chances of one of them
producing twin boys would be higher than your average Joe I would think. Ideally they should both marry twins just to sharpen the odds.

do twins have a greater chance of producing twins?

 

[Joffaboy]

do twins have a greater chance of producing twins?

Who carries the dominant gene for twins?

The quick answer to this question is that, in a twin pregnancy, it is the mother's genes that determine twins. First up, giving birth to identical twins is not genetic, but conceiving fraternal twins is. The mother may have the genetic trait of releasing two eggs in one menstrual cycle.

 

[Sun Ra]

do twins have a greater chance of producing twins?

Pretty sure. I've know of some. Sometimes it can skip a generation. I am guessing but have a feeling about this. I'll have to ask Dr Google.

EDIT - I was WRONG ! _ Damn it.
For a given pregnancy, the odds of conceiving fraternal twins are only determined by the mother's genetics, not the father's. Fraternal twins happen when two eggs are simultaneously fertilised instead of just one.

Identical twinning and family heredity
Since embryo splitting is a random spontaneous event that happens by chance, it doesn't run in families. Genes are not involved and there's no scientific evidence that being from a family with identical multiples has any impact on your odds of having twins.

 

[Mowman]

I'm not that down on our list don't get me wrong. A decent coach probably has them playing finals the last 2 years but I'm critical about the way we did it. We built for immediate impact and gave up the future to do it then skimped on the coaching and support crew. Howard's fine, I just wouldn't have traded for him and Ryder with a high pick at that point. It was the time to draft and now instead of having a bunch of kids that came through together we have a bit of a messy list that Ross is going to have to extract every drop from early and hope the new kids are better than most of what we have drafted in the last decade.

Crouch and Steele are two of the better 2 way mids so he should have that.

Still think we could have got Ryder for a pack of chips and there was other ways of getting Howard as well
But those in charge just had a hard on for getting Hill no matter what, and we just didn't need a Hill type player at that time. It was poor list manegment

I'm wrapped with direction the club has taken BUT leathlean and Gags still need to go

 

[Tommy Wigs]

One of the less known positives of having both the King boys at the club is if we get both to 100 games, the chances of one of them
producing twin boys would be higher than your average Joe I would think. Ideally they should both marry twins just to sharpen the odds.

Elite thinking

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

That Is like most clubs. If the coach has too much say they will only look at short term. Maybe that's why first time round with Lyon we had lousy picks.

Our 1st round picks during the 1st Lyon reign;

2006 #9 David Armitage (Brad Howard #28)
2007 #9 Ben McEvoy (Jack Steven- #42)
2008 #13 Tom Lynch (Rhys Stanley- #47)
2009 #17 Traded for Lovett (Nick Winmar - #32)
2010 #24 Jamie Cripps (GWS pre listing draft)

Not a bad list for a bloke who supposedly mortgaged the future.

 

[bergholt]

"Elbow Day" could be a thing ...

More seriously, I'd love to see Plugger working with King and the rest of the big forwards. At the very least, he'd sort out their routines so they were consistent, giving them the best chance of kicking 60%+

Just because he could do it doesn't mean he can coach it!

 

[bergholt]

Richo landed Ben Long by being overly involved.

Just leave the drafting to the recruiters.

And coaches should focus on coaching.

What about the cobbling tho

 

[sauce_head]

Our 1st round picks during the 1st Lyon reign;

2006 #9 David Armitage (Brad Howard #28)
2007 #9 Ben McEvoy (Jack Steven- #42)
2008 #13 Tom Lynch (Rhys Stanley- #47)
2009 #17 Traded for Lovett (Nick Winmar - #32)
2010 #24 Jamie Cripps (GWS pre listing draft)

Not a bad list for a bloke who supposedly mortgaged the future.

Lovett. History shows things that involve personal recommendations between Hird and Sheedy make you want to vomit. Orange Nuts and The Parrot, just leave everybody alone.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Still think we could have got Ryder for a pack of chips and there was other ways of getting Howard as well
But those in charge just had a hard on for getting Hill no matter what, and we just didn't need a Hill type player at that time. It was poor list manegment

I'm wrapped with direction the club has taken BUT leathlean and Gags still need to go

Pick 6 ( Serong) for : Howard and pick 10 ( Pickett ) stands up as a pretty good trade in itself .
With 20/20 hindsight we could have traded our future 1st ( Allison + Higgins ) for Howard. But that's because the 2020 draft was dodgy.

I assume you don't want to get rid of all the Bigfooty posters who were going crazy happy at the thought of landing Hill.

 

[Speck]

Time for bed mate

Completely misread that one, the sound of it was so crazy I had to be sure.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm not that down on our list don't get me wrong. A decent coach probably has them playing finals the last 2 years but I'm critical about the way we did it. We built for immediate impact and gave up the future to do it then skimped on the coaching and support crew. Howard's fine, I just wouldn't have traded for him and Ryder with a high pick at that point. It was the time to draft and now instead of having a bunch of kids that came through together we have a bit of a messy list that Ross is going to have to extract every drop from early and hope the new kids are better than most of what we have drafted in the last decade.

Crouch and Steele are two of the better 2 way mids so he should have that.

Do me a favour.

List what we gave up in the draft period including the players taken in that draft pick.

I suggest you are only going to be upset about Serong.

So the Net gain more than covers the loss

To be fair, gringo2011 is struggling to be negative after the events of recent days.

Just like the players will have to adapt to a new game plan, he will have to adapt to everyone being happy and positive.

And indeed the G Man himself does seems happy. However years of being miserable can be very difficult to completely overcome.

Allow him this little vinegar hit

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

Hill will be back to his best under RTB.
Play him on the wing and kicking the ball to his goal side advantage will do wonders