Discussion Round 1, Best 22

[sammm]

Not a bad attempt and a really good team.

I would swap Nicky Dal and Jimmy Gwilt and you would go pretty close to the team.

I agree with that swap.

 

[The Chiefton]

The only reason I put Nick Dal Santo in the HB position is because I think he can set up plays, and really be a deadly weapon coming out of defense, with his elite ball use.

I've listed James Gwilt on a HFF just as a bit of a change up.

He's been excellent as a defender, but maybe he's learnt a few things and could be dangerous alongside Riewoldt and Milne, I mean Sam Gilbert was tried as a forward & it didn't really work out, so why not?

Perhaps something like that could be trialled in praccy games/nab cup, to see if it's worth persisting with.

 

[maanco]

We need Gwilt to help out down back not up fwd. I honestly think that we have a very strong fwd line.

Really Dal Santo should be in the midfield as his work there is very valuable to the team.

 

[maanco]

Here's my go at the team:

B: Geary, Simpkin, Gwilt
HB: Sippos, Fisher, Dempster
C: Ray, Hayes, Steven
HF: Armitage, Riewoldt, Stanley
FF: Milne, Wilkes, Saad
R: McEvoy, Dal Santo, Jones
Interchange: Gilbert, Hickey, Schneider
Sub: Dunnel
EMG: Newnes, TDL, Ross

The teams not as good as i thought it would, and i think it lacks midfielders with grunt, hence the reason Jones is on the field, however if Ross has worked on his fitness, I'm sure he can take his spot. From his game against GWS he played really well but he was not able to sustain it, due to his fitness.
Its also a very tall team with 11 of the best 22, being 189+cm.

 

[hayes]

Koschitzke had a hip injury in which he had against Geelong which kept him out of the side for the last 2 games i am 100% sure. That's also why he didn't play for Sandringham.

Watters said in a radio interview Kosi was just simply overlooked in the last game. Could've played but wasn't picked. So in other words, he was dropped so I'm not sure where you're getting your 100% from.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Watters said in a radio interview Kosi was just simply overlooked in the last game. Could've played but wasn't picked. So in other words, he was dropped so I'm not sure where you're getting your 100% from.

Actually remember Scott Watters saying they were weighing up to bring him in or not because he was carrying a hip injury. Why not play him at Sandringham if he was 100% fit?
This is the best i can find of it, Near the bottom of this article. Maybe i was a little off the mark. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/goddard-offered-contract-20120824-24s2b.html

 

[hayes]

Actually remember Scott Watters saying they were weighing up to bring him in or not because he was carrying a hip injury. Why not play him at Sandringham if he was 100% fit?

I can't answer that, but I remember the question to Watters was "Would I be right in saying Kosi was overlooked for this game" and the answer was yes. Wish I could remember who the interview was with. The saints site needs to lift their game just quietly.

I really think the turning point was when Kosi was subbed off in the Geelong game. I'm guessing like everyone he liked what he saw with the quick and mobile forward line that almost pulled off a great comeback.

Watters grew as a coach that night IMO. He trusted the young forward line against a team that was going as well as anyone at that time, and it almost paid off. With Roo, Stanley, Lee, White and all the good mediums and smalls we have I really think we've seen the last of Kosi.

 

[Falchoon]

Actually remember Scott Watters saying they were weighing up to bring him in or not because he was carrying a hip injury. Why not play him at Sandringham if he was 100% fit?

was he eligible to play VFL finals?

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

was he eligible to play VFL finals?

It was still the Home and Away season i am 100% sure. Last game of the year.

 

[hayes]

Sandringham final was on the 1st of September, and our game against Carlton was on the 2nd. Kosi wasn't eligible to play VFL finals.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

Sandringham final was on the 1st of September, and our game against Carlton was on the 2nd. Kosi wasn't eligible to play VFL finals.

Woops.. I thought someone said Kosi and Blake could have played?

 

[hayes]

Woops.. I thought someone said Kosi and Blake could have played?

I'm not sure mate. I looked up the dates though and that's what I come up with.

Back to the thread topic looking at the team I put up and most of the other ones its nice to see so many blokes that can actually kick the pill. The only real concerns would be Steven, Gilbert and Geary. Steven improved as the season went on and Geary will be doing mostly shutdown roles so I'm not too concerned about them, but hopefully Gilbert can build up some more confidence and become a real weapon for us without shanking it so often.

With Siposs, Dal, Montagna, Dunell, Gwilt, Fisher etc would it be that crazy to say we could be one of the better kicking teams in the league?

 

[Falchoon]

Sandringham final was on the 1st of September, and our game against Carlton was on the 2nd. Kosi wasn't eligible to play VFL finals.

he was eligible to play week 1, but not the last 3 weeks.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

I'm not sure mate. I looked up the dates though and that's what I come up with.

Back to the thread topic looking at the team I put up and most of the other ones its nice to see so many blokes that can actually kick the pill. The only real concerns would be Steven, Gilbert and Geary. Steven improved as the season went on and Geary will be doing mostly shutdown roles so I'm not too concerned about them, but hopefully Gilbert can build up some more confidence and become a real weapon for us without shanking it so often.

With Siposs, Dal, Montagna, Dunell, Gwilt, Fisher etc would it be that crazy to say we could be one of the better kicking teams in the league?

Would love to see Gilbert finally get back to his 09/10 form when teams had to tag him.. Hopefully he can the players believe we still have a chance at a flag hopefully they can show us as really next year is without a doubt our very last chance in my books. While we still have Hayes, Milne etc.

 

[The Chiefton]

Hope you guys don't mind that I popped in and joined in the discussion, no trolling here.

Cheers, good luck for 2013.

Exciting times ahead for the St Kilda FC .

 

[stkildathunda]

Watters said in a radio interview Kosi was just simply overlooked in the last game. Could've played but wasn't picked. So in other words, he was dropped so I'm not sure where you're getting your 100% from.

Kosi & Jones were both dropped in favour of playing kids. Same reason Schneider & Fisher were put out for surgery early. They wanted to blood kids and give them a taste of AFL football.

 

[stkildathunda]

The only reason I put Nick Dal Santo in the HB position is because I think he can set up plays, and really be a deadly weapon coming out of defense, with his elite ball use.

I've listed James Gwilt on a HFF just as a bit of a change up.

He's been excellent as a defender, but maybe he's learnt a few things and could be dangerous alongside Riewoldt and Milne, I mean Sam Gilbert was tried as a forward & it didn't really work out, so why not?

Perhaps something like that could be trialled in praccy games/nab cup, to see if it's worth persisting with.

Gwilt was initially a forward but couldn't make impact so Grant Thomas moved him down back. IMO it's his best position and when he's up and about we need his precision kicking out of defense to set up the play, especially now with no Goddard in side.

 

[hayes]

Would love to see Gilbert finally get back to his 09/10 form when teams had to tag him.. Hopefully he can the players believe we still have a chance at a flag hopefully they can show us as really next year is without a doubt our very last chance in my books. While we still have Hayes, Milne etc.

While it could be our last chance I wouldn't say without a doubt. If we can get another 10-20 games into Stanley, Siposs, Steven etc that should do wonders and I'm banking on that improvement far outweighing the loss of Lenny. Then the year after Ross, Newnes, Ledger etc should improve, and we shouldn't have many declining. We went to a GF after Harvey left and while Lenny is probably going better now than Harves was back then, it's never about just one player when so many run out there every week.

That's why it's so critical to first of all have them pushing for selection, and then to actually play them if they are, and any games given to the likes of CJ or Kosi are just wasted games at this point.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Hope you guys don't mind that I popped in and joined in the discussion, no trolling here.

Cheers, good luck for 2013.

Exciting times ahead for the St Kilda FC .

No worries at all mate and right back at you. The more the merrier, as long as it's not trolling.

As for Dal, I don't think we have enough quality in the midfield area (especially with Goddard, who played there so much this year- as I've confirmed when watching all the replays in recent weeks- gone now) to be able to afford to play him anywhere but mainly midfield.

Arryn Siposs has only just turned 20, but he looked terrific off HB in the last couple of games we played this year (40 possies, 13 marks, in his first two there in the seniors, after having previously played almost exclusively up forward) and his kicking is probably as good as anyone in our team and only likely to get better. It is a joy to watch and he'll be in his 3rd year on the list next year and looks ready to be able to step up and play a more consistent and responsible role. He is someone who just has so much poise for his age and experience and generally reads the play extremely well, makes good decisions, marks strongly overhead (he played FF in the juniors) and has excellent vision, so he has all the attributes to be able to play that "quarterback" role off HB extremely well, even as soon as next year.

I was watching the replay of one of our NAB Cup games from earlier in the year (against Geelong) last night and it was worth watching it again just to see some of the stuff he did, including one kick when running down the wing that was just outrageous (if he meant it). It would have travelled at least 60m and hit Ahmed Saad on the chest, running into space, just over the back of the pack, inside the F50. (He did a couple of similar 55-60m kicks over the back to Nick Riewoldt in his brief appearances in 2011 as well.) Then, at another point of that game, he got the ball in the centre circle, ran about 10m with it and had a running shot for goal from about 70m out (it landed on the top edge of the goalsquare but bounced through for a point).

As for Gwilt to the forward line, that is something I've considered myself, especially if we'd gotten someone like Mitch Brown for FB (which would have meant that we had to then find spots for all of Gwilt, Simpkin, Fisher, Gilbert and Dempster- all a similar height) and Gwilt of course played forward plenty in his first few years at the club (not very well, but he is infinitely better overall and I'd say stronger and more experienced now, too), but now that we've got so many other options up forward I'm doubtful that it will be tried.

 

[aussierulesrules]

While it could be our last chance I wouldn't say without a doubt. If we can get another 10-20 games into Stanley, Siposs, Steven etc that should do wonders and I'm banking on that improvement far outweighing the loss of Lenny. Then the year after Ross, Newnes, Ledger etc should improve, and we shouldn't have many declining. We went to a GF after Harvey left and while Lenny is probably going better now than Harves was back then, it's never about just one player when so many run out there every week.

Don't forget that we may also be able to land one or two through free agency next year, to help offset any loss, as you can bet we will be going just as hard at that as we did in the trade period this year (as long as we don't lose anyone that we really don't want to to FA ourselves, meaning we won't want to lose the compo pick). Anyone that happens to slip free from GWS will probably also be well and truly on our radar and if they have a couple of seasons under their belt they could be ready to come straight in and make an impact.

It looks like we could have at least $1million of cap space free by then and the last time we had that much room in the cap was probably in 2000 and in that trade week we got all of Fraser Gehrig, Aaron Hamill and Steve Lawrence, so it just shows how quickly you can add to your list if you have the space in the cap and an aggressive attitude.

 

[hayes]

I'm not sure where I'd like to see Dal play this year. No doubt when he's up and running he's one of the best mids in the AFL, but with Goddard gone we know where the tagger is going each and every week which is something Dal has always struggled with. If we want to do anything next season we can't afford to have those 10 disposal games he tends to have when tagged.

I was watching the replay of one of our NAB Cup games from earlier in the year (against Geelong) last night and it was worth watching it again just to see some of the stuff he did, including one kick when running down the wing that was just outrageous (if he meant it). It would have travelled at least 60m and hit Ahmed Saad on the chest, running into space, just over the back of the pack, inside the F50. (He did a couple of similar 55-60m kicks over the back to Nick Riewoldt in his brief appearances in 2011 as well.) Then, at another point of that game, he got the ball in the centre circle, ran about 10m with it and had a running shot for goal from about 70m out (it landed on the top edge of the goalsquare but bounced through for a point).

Those examples you mentioned of Siposs are why I like him so much as a forward. That sort of delivery into the f50 is golden, as is his set shot kicking. In terms of potential I think Siposs would almost have the most of any player on our list. His two games at HB were good, but to be fair they were pretty much dead rubbers so I wouldn't mind seeing him play like that in a meaningful game before I pencil him in there for the next 10 years.

As for Gwilt there's no real need to change his position just for the sake of it. He played up forward for the first half of 2009 and actually didn't play too badly, but he did say he's played midfield and back for most of his career and that's where he's most comfortable. He's a good backmen, leave him there. Wasn't crazy about trying to move Gilbert forward when he was an AA worthy backmen and he's still trying to build his confidence back. Fisher went forward when Roo did his hammy and that didn't work out well either. Keep the good players in their good spots.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I guess it'll also depend on FA/Trades as we may get a few gems aswell.

That's one of the main reasons I think it's very important that we have a strong year next year and don't just throw in the towel and slide down the ladder like almost everyone outside our club seems to think is "inevitable".

If we have another strong year and play finals, or are at least ultra-competitive most weeks, like we were this year, then we will be a much more attractive destination to anyone that leaves another club next year than if we tumble down the ladder and become rather uncompetitive and look like we're going to be in the wilderness for the next few years.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I'm not sure where I'd like to see Dal play this year. No doubt when he's up and running he's one of the best mids in the AFL, but with Goddard gone we know where the tagger is going each and every week which is something Dal has always struggled with. If we want to do anything next season we can't afford to have those 10 disposal games he tends to have when tagged.

Yeah he's going to have his work cut out for him next year, but I just don't see how we're going to be good enough if he's not in the midfield somewhere, so he's going to have to learn to deal with them somehow and maybe we'll just have to cop a few 10 possie games. He may get tagged off HB as well, don't forget.

Those examples you mentioned of Siposs are why I like him so much as a forward. That sort of delivery into the f50 is golden, as is his set shot kicking. In terms of potential I think Siposs would almost have the most of any player on our list. His two games at HB were good, but to be fair they were pretty much dead rubbers so I wouldn't mind seeing him play like that in a meaningful game before I pencil him in there for the next 10 years.

I'm not for a second suggesting that we pencil him in for HB for the next 10 years at this point, I'm only talking about next year and I also like what he brings to the table up forward, make no mistake about that (and as I've said previously I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes in the midfield immensely), but as we know, we have about 17 on our list who are "forwards" (some of whom are also very good set shots for goal), so some of them are going to have to find spots elsewhere over the next few years, otherwise we're going to have some of them playing in the VFL, even though they are easily talented enough to be playing senior AFL and that would not be "maximizing our resources".

I am pretty much completely sold on Arryn's ability to play HB to a high level though. I'm happy to call it right now. It's not just how he played there in the last couple of games, but his attributes overall that make him so well suited to the role, both physical and footy-wise and the fact he did very well there with so little experience this year.

Pretty much everything that has made Goddard good at the times he has played there, Arryn also has in abundance (almost identical size, similar speed, strong overhead- with longer arms and marking at the highest point- great reading of the play, cool under pressure, good vision, fantastic kicking), but then sitting there in the stands for those last two games (even if they were "dead rubbers"- although Carlton were going hard to win it for Ratten) just sold me on it. For me they were a "wow" moment, to be able to play like that in his very first games there in the seniors and make it look so easy. I reckon he could be really good up forward (maybe better than that and if so we ought to play him there), I'm also confident that he could take his game to the wing at least, but I think he could be genuinely "elite" across HB, where it's generally easier to get a kick. I reckon playing there would be a piece of piss for someone like him.

I wasn't completely sure about his overhead marking until that Carlton game, as I just hadn't seen enough of his marking to be sure, but in that game, while he only took the 4, I think every single one of them was a very strong overhead mark at the highest point and it proved to me that he could really mark strongly as well, which pretty much completed the puzzle, as far as I was concerned. One thing that stood out to me with that was his technique. It was about as good as you'd see, I reckon, technique wise, just as the way he puts the ball onto his boot is just about as good as anyone. Whoever taught him how to kick, mark and handball (which I think is also very good) needs to be commended and should probably be on an AFL or junior footy staff, if they aren't already. His fundamental techniques look to be absolutely fantastic.

Those examples you mentioned of Siposs are why I like him so much as a forward. That sort of delivery into the f50 is golden, as is his set shot kicking.

Definitely agree with the set shot kicking part, but do you know where he was playing in that game against Geelong that I was talking about? I'm pretty sure he played most, if not all of that game in the midfield (where he had the 2nd most possies for us for the match). When he had that shot from 70m out it was just after the centre bounce and he had either come off the wing (90% sure he did), or was in the centre himself and he ran forward and thumped it from there (landing it on the tip of the goalsquare from just a few metres from the centre circle- it was basically a centre clearance) and the one he hit Saad with, he got the ball back of centre on the outer wing and ran forward and kicked it from about the wing, carrying the pack and landing in Saad's arms about 40m out. In the following game against WC he also seemed to be playing a lot on the wing, as he got most of his possies back of centre (including in the back 50), or around the wing itself.

I watched the Carlton R23 game again the other night as well and he ran off HB and through the centre of the ground at least a couple of times and delivered the ball into the F50, one of which was a low bullet pass that hit someone leading up to him smack in the guts. I think he might have also hit Wilkes with a long 55m pass over the back in that game as well, but with the sun in his eyes Beau lost it in flight and dropped an uncontested mark about 20m out. Arryn also kicked a thumping, Jason Gram-like goal from 55m out in one of those last two games, after slipping forward and getting a sneaky handball off someone who was lining up for a set shot from 50m out near the boundary. So he definitely doesn't have to be playing in the forward line to be putting the ball inside the F50 with thumping roosts, or precision passes, or to be our new Gram, getting the sneaky handballs from anyone that doesn't want to have a shot from 50m out.

While he's not as quick as Gram (although he's not slow, he can really move once he gets going) I can see him being the one to play the rebounding role Gram basically played this year (although we'll need someone else to do the shutdown roles Gram played) and be the one charging forward from defence at every opportunity to be the one to kick it inside F50.

While he doesn't have as much breakaway pace as Gram, what he does have is more of a precise thumping kick. When Grammy went the bomb, he would just sort of thump it to a general area and it would often wobble and go really high, giving the other team time to get to the drop, but Sippa seems to have the ability to both spot someone 60m away and also hit them with a more accurate and penetrating kick, that gets there more quickly. Then, on the occasions when the whole team has pressed forward, to lock the ball into our forward line, he will of course be pretty much within scoring distance any time he gets the ball within 60m in that situation, which will make him very dangerous.

He is of course one of those we would like to have multiple of, even this early in his career! Having said that, we also have Sam Dunell who can play multiple roles and who looks promising and now Murdoch as well, who the club seems to be hoping will be able to play HF, HB and wing.

One of the other things that you notice when you watch the replays of these games closely is just how cool Siposs usually is when he gets the ball in traffic or in congestion. He is one of those who just seems to have more time than most and is able to see his way out of trouble with little fuss (he doesn't have a big dummy, or candy-sell like Lenny, or Gilbo, but more of a subtle but very effective one) and seems to have really good vision and ability to get the ball to someone in a better position. This is another reason I'm confident that he'll be able to take his game into the midfield (wing at least) successfully.

 

[Manimal_Dunstan]

I'm not sure where I'd like to see Dal play this year. No doubt when he's up and running he's one of the best mids in the AFL, but with Goddard gone we know where the tagger is going each and every week which is something Dal has always struggled with. If we want to do anything next season we can't afford to have those 10 disposal games he tends to have when tagged.

That's where we need Armitage, Steven, Ledger, Ross, Montagna etc to step up and help Dal out. Hopefully next year he can break the tags though. We can't just rely on Dal so those other guys will have to step up to help him and Hayes.

 

[hayes]

aussierulesrules

On my phone so it's too painful to multi quote so I'll just reply here.

Oh ok, well I guess a move back before going forward again would be good for development. I remember someone from the coaching staff saying he needs to work on his defensive game which I think played a part in sending him back. It's just with the guys that are good set shots I want them all playing in the forward line. Good goal kicking covers up a lot of flaws, and we've seen it cost teams premierships which is why I'm loving the look of our future forward line:

Milera Stanley Markworth
Saad White Lee

Swap Milera with Dunell if Terry ends up being a winger. All those guys apart from Stanley I'd have faith in them slotting the goal when they're lining up. Or if Stanley ends up playing a different position:

Milera Lee Dunell
Saad White Markworth

All good set shot kicks which is invaluable. But yeah I like the idea of Siposs replacing Gram in that role not only because of his skill set, but because he plays like an experienced player. A younger player might not perform under that sort of pressure in big games, but Siposs isn't bothered by 'the moment' if you all get what I mean.

As for Dal I think we need to do more as a team to help him out.