Review Round 12, 2019 - Carlton vs. Brisbane Lions

[Sausages]

Well - I'm still wearing my scarf. I'm disappointed, for sure, but oddly philosophical about the loss.

I still see us making the finals.

As for the 2 rucks - well, that's clearly Fagan's coaching philosophy. One that was/is shared by Matthews as it happens.

It hurts, but we are better than we were 12 months ago and the results show that. No, we aren't top 4 nor premiership material even for one as wildly optimistic as me But we're getting there.

The week off comes at a good time. Onwards and upwards!

 

[Hollow Knight]

The thing that terrifies me is that we have to rock up to the same venue that we stink at, bereft of confidence and can see us capitulating vs the saints and then our season is just about over. We’ll just about slip outside of the 8. Media will be all over us. Have been fearing this for about a month.

Might just have to be the another of the harsh lessons we have to learn on our way up. I was filthy yesterday and it felt like the ultimate wasted opportunity - which it was.

In the context of the season, the 12 premiership points we coughed up to the Dogs, Dockers and Blues will prove to be devastating.

But maybe over the course of where we are going over the next 5 or so years, the lessons might ultimately be worth more than the squandered premiership points in 2019. This is how Fagan has to approach it, and he is, whether people accuse him of “spin” or not.

In the meantime though, it’s a kick in the guts for the fans by any measure.

 

[Dylan12]

I'm gonna sub myself out of here for a few days and calm down I think.

I should, but I won’t because I know I’m needed on here to provide a balanced opinion...your welcome.

 

[zorkoooooooooo]

In regards to the game,

We never clicked out of first or second gear. We were in cruise control in the second term and got what we deserved. Young side kicking butt, lachie being lachie, the young guys clearly just thought it was all gonna just continue. Nope. We were up against a team that were playing their GF. Now it has made out top 4 aspirations a lot more difficult and our spot in the 8 is in danger.

Archie should never play AFL again. Plain and simple he is not even close to the standard required.

I’m not sure about Allison. Would rather Cutler, even with his lack of defensive ability. Allison deserves a decent shot though, as his upside is exciting.

I hope Cedric gets to the point where he can force guys like N Robbo out of our side (not that he was awful or anything)

We miss Berry badly.

Hippys body particularly will benefit from the bye

Rayner needs to lift his work rate. Don’t care about goals or touches. Just can’t keep going missing.

McStay is ready to explode. He could single handedly lift us to the next level IF it all clicks

 

[RU_]

I just hope the Blues come out and win their next 5, it’s the only way I will accept this.

Has got me thinking though, we really need a fast back flanker for the transition and another midfielder as our depth isn’t flash there.

Is Adams that fast back flanker?

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

We had to bomb it a lot of times because McStay - Hipwood don't want to lead at the kicker. Hipwood is so quick but doesn't get on the lead its so frustrating. After HT Carlton woke up and realised they could sit an extra defender because we just bomb it in.

At the function last night I sat with two senior players (won't name them ) but one of said that our forwards are told to often play defensively. Instead of getting on their bikes and leading up all the time they get back on their men.

There was a classic example yesterday where there was this enormous hole in the Carlton defence (may not have been seen on the TV) and every Lions supporter around me was calling for someone/anyone to lead into it, but no, they all hung back and we bombed into the pocket to a contest once again.

Possibly Hipwood and McStay (he played OK ) are not natural forwards, players who instinctively know how to get the easy kick?

 

[Pacman82]

At the function last night I sat with two senior players (won't name them ) but one of said that our forwards are told to often play defensively. Instead of getting on their bikes and leading up all the time they get back on their men.

There was a classic example yesterday where there was this enormous hole in the Carlton defence (may not have been seen on the TV) and every Lions supporter around me was calling for someone/anyone to lead into it, but no, they all hung back and we bombed into the pocket to a contest once again.

Possibly Hipwood and McStay (he played OK ) are not natural forwards, players who instinctively know how to get the easy kick?

Was just saying the same thing on the changes thread!

 

[jackess]

Might just have to be the another of the harsh lessons we have to learn on our way up. I was filthy yesterday and it felt like the ultimate wasted opportunity - which it was.

In the context of the season, the 12 premiership points we coughed up to the Dogs, Dockers and Blues will prove to be devastating.

But maybe over the course of where we are going over the next 5 or so years, the lessons might ultimately be worth more than the squandered premiership points in 2019. This is how Fagan has to approach it, and he is, whether people accuse him of “spin” or not.

In the meantime though, it’s a kick in the guts for the fans by any measure.

Why do people keep mentioning the close losses like we should’ve won without mentioning the close wins we should’ve loss. The Port game especially we really had no right to win.

 

[Hollow Knight]

We’re 7-5 mate.

Really, we should be 9-3 or 8-4 at the very least. Someone mentioned we’re 4-5 out of the last 9. We’re now going backwards IMO when we should’ve solidified our spot in the top 4 by now.

“Should” is subjective really. It’s almost as though you forget there are two teams out there. By the same benchmark we identify games we “should” have won, clubs like Port, North and Adelaide probably look at their games vs us and say they “should” have won those.

So if we are laying everything at the feet of the coach and the selection committee, it’s only fair they get credit for the games we “shouldn’t” have won but did.

 

[M Malice]

Does any one here actually know that Nick gets a role on a specific player most weeks he plays?? Or does everyone just shoot from the hip with emotion and irrational BS. I’m my own worst enemy here for reading this I guess but I actually enjoy the chat. I’ve refrained from commenting for a while because to be honest anyone would sometimes think we were sitting bottom of the ladder the way some react here.
The abitrary calls for Nick delisting and getting dropped every week is just ridiculous (and many other players)
First game this year he played 3 quarters on Fantasia and kept him scoreless. He got his 2 goals during Nicks compulsory rotation. Asked to go to Wulla for the last quarter and the guy had already kicked 5 (on who I might add) and some drongos on here suggested he had 7 kicked on him??? “Nicks ****, should never play for the Lions again” or words to the affect.
Against Collingwood I thought he played a really good game that day.
Hawthorne kept Breust to one goal (yes from his error) and today McGovern one goal and no influence.
He could run and chase kicks but he doesn’t. He plays his role. Some on here need understand how this works sometimes rather than sacrificing your own players to appease your own frustrations.
You think these guys won’t be pissed!!! Ashamed!!! Far out some have no idea.
Deluded if you really thought this was a premiership year. Absolute leaps and bounds this season but today reminds everybody how much work is left to do.
You can either bag the **** out of your own players that when they win you “love” them when they lose you tear them apart or stick fat. Constructive criticism of the game is fine and always a good read. Lately it gotten worse than that.
Nothing wrong with passion and there are many here that have supported the Lions for many more years than myself. Still 6 years and a playing Son that gets ripped to the ********* on his on teams “supporters forum” probably allows me to stand up a voice my disappointment.
There are many many realists with composed commentary on this forum and its those I really enjoy reading.

Well said Robbo, Nick makes mistakes but so does every player who has ever played the game, some on here have a blind spot re Nick and have a negative pre conceived idea of him and go into games looking to entrench their confirmation bias even further.

I am critical of players but except for the odd occasion I keep it based on facts and not an ingrained perception, I have probably been guilty of this in the past myself against a couple of players.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Why do people keep mentioning the close losses like we should’ve won without mentioning the close wins we should’ve loss. The Port game especially we really had no right to win.

Lol, interesting timing. Look at my next post after that one.

In any case, the context of my post was about measuring the cost of missed opportunities in 2019 vs the value of the lessons they teach us over a longer term. I’m not saying we “should” have won them, just that we “could” have.

 

[trikster]

As for the 2 rucks - well, that's clearly Fagan's coaching philosophy. One that was/is shared by Matthews as it happens.

Correct. But a part of why it isn't working is Martin doesn't offer enough up forward (though he is offering more than he use to which is more a reflection of how terrible he use to be). Down the track Oscar as #1 and a Ballenden or Fullarton as #2 will work much better (I'm not convinced Smith will make the grade).

 

[Sausages]

Correct. But a part of why it isn't working is Martin doesn't offer enough up forward (though he is offering more than he use to which is more a reflection of how terrible he use to be). Down the track Oscar as #1 and a Ballenden or Fullarton as #2 will work much better (I'm not convinced Smith will make the grade).

And I'm totally fine with Fagan having the approach of "we play this way" despite us not having exactly the cattle in all positions to successfully implement his philosophy. It's all part of the learning across the ground, throughout the list, that is important.

Yeah, it hurts we lost. Being 6 goals up and losing by 3 ain't ideal. And if it was happening every week, then sure, danger signs. But it isn't. This one will sting, the boys have got the bye to reflect on the 12 games thus far....and we come back stronger.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Correct. But a part of why it isn't working is Martin doesn't offer enough up forward (though he is offering more than he use to which is more a reflection of how terrible he use to be). Down the track Oscar as #1 and a Ballenden or Fullarton as #2 will work much better (I'm not convinced Smith will make the grade).

People keep underrating Martin. He isn’t a good marking forward but he does play as an extra midfielder. He often crops up in those link up handball chains through the corridor as well as running hard to the wing to present an option.

That overlapping handball through the middle is one of our key modes we play in and Stef fits into that very well for a ruckman.

We do however also have a fair bit of the “long and down the line” to our game as well which is where Oscar proves his worth. He doesn’t clunk them regularly enough yet but he makes it a contest more times than not. How often did Carlton just mark those almost uncontested yesterday in his absence? It arguably cost us the game. We just couldn’t get it down our end as a result.

From what I can tell, Archie doesn’t seem capable of playing the midfield role that Stef does or provide the marking option that Oscar gives us. I just can’t see what he offers us after the ruck contest.

 

[M Malice]

Yep, unfortunately for Archie Smith I don't think he has what it takes at AFL level, he has been on our list now for 6 years and showed very little in the last 2 weeks to suggest he's improved enough and going to make it.

 

[Gadzorks]

Some serious over reactions getting around. I was there and yes.. it hurt, heaps. Unfortunantly 5-6 goal leads mean nothing these days. A hungry, emotional team with 30k very loud fans behind them caught us on a **** day and hunted us down. It sucks, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

To me, the boys looked very tired. It seemed like they squeezed the lemon 1 more time againts the Hawks but today the tough travel schedule and string of close games caught up (delayed a week after Freo) - we looked knackered.

We are 7-4 - we freshen up and move onto the saints.

Saints is a massive game for us. Need to come out of the bye as hard as we have for the past two years.

Can't help wondering if our boys are preoccupied in a way with the bye - they know the break is coming so they have acknowledged the mental and physical fatigue and are looking forward to it. They need to play a final to learn about their second gear. Once they have that, things will improve a lot.

 

[jackess]

Archie’s rucking was sublime in the purple patch we had at the start of the second. He has to do that more consistently.

The issues are; he isn’t tall, athletic, strong, smart, skillful or many attributes a high quality ruck has.

Also probably provides a warning to those that were calling for Fullarton to come in for McStay not that long ago that we have to be patient with these guys.

 

[Gadzorks]

Well - I'm still wearing my scarf. I'm disappointed, for sure, but oddly philosophical about the loss.

I still see us making the finals.

As for the 2 rucks - well, that's clearly Fagan's coaching philosophy. One that was/is shared by Matthews as it happens.

It hurts, but we are better than we were 12 months ago and the results show that. No, we aren't top 4 nor premiership material even for one as wildly optimistic as me But we're getting there.

The week off comes at a good time. Onwards and upwards!

Two rucks seems logical now that centre clearances are so important. however, logic vs practice may not hold up. Has anyone focused on other teams and how they are managing it? My in game emotional state means I don't notice details of the opposition, though I noticed Cripps yesterday. Wish he was ours.

 

[Gadzorks]

And I'm totally fine with Fagan having the approach of "we play this way" despite us not having exactly the cattle in all positions to successfully implement his philosophy. It's all part of the learning across the ground, throughout the list, that is important.

Yeah, it hurts we lost. Being 6 goals up and losing by 3 ain't ideal. And if it was happening every week, then sure, danger signs. But it isn't. This one will sting, the boys have got the bye to reflect on the 12 games thus far....and we come back stronger.

I wish I'd been on bigfooty in 2013 and looked at the Geelong board after the miracle on grass. Bet it makes us look like amateur melters.

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/remember-when-miracle-on-grass/

 

[Skoob]

The angst & disagreement on this board all stems from people's varying expectations, both of individuals and the team as a whole.
Before the season started, most would would have agreed that climbing from the bottom of the ladder to somewhere in the middle would be a great result.
We started the year well and suddenly a whole bunch of folk expect us to feature in September. The possibility is still there, that we might finish in the top 8, but what are people's realistic expectation if we do. If we get to September, we were only ever going to be making up the numbers.

Forget about results and ladder position for a minute. If anyone thinks we're playing great footy most weeks, you need to take your rose coloured glasses off. The footy media has made a lot of comment this year about how even or close the competition is, particularly across the teams between 2 and 13th on the ladder. From a pure footballing perspective, there are a lot more teams playing very ordinary footy this year. That's the difference so far. More teams are playing worse and the overall standard is poor. Only Geelong stands out as a consistently good side.

By round 22, I would expect the whole ladder to have settled right down with a clearer pecking order. Teams will be winning and losing the games they should. So, on form so far exposed this year, I wouldn't expect to see the Lions playing football. If we do, then it's an indictment on the game and the standard in September is going to be horribly ordinary. Teams in the 8 shouldn't be missing kicks, tackles, targets and making errors the way we do. And that goes for a great number of teams around us on the ladder. As I said, the standard across the board is terrible, but by September, 8 teams should have that sorted out.

So where do we fit in? We beat a heap of teams early and people's expectations are through the roof. What were your expectations before round 1?
For me, this was always to be another year of development. We got some great talent coming in, but the likes of Neale, Cameron, McCarthy, Lyons hadn't played footy together, and hadn't played with the Lions (Charlie the exception, but with just a handful of games). At the same time we have new young players, in the same boat. It takes time for a team to come together, and learn to function as a well oiled machine. That to me was what this year would be about. Forget finals. We were never supposed to be good enough, and that is still on track to be the case.

The possibility is there, and for other reasons it would be great to make the 8. It's good for the players to taste that level of success. It's good for membership and media exposure, resulting in revenue. It's good for the soul, both for fans and the club. From a purely footballing perspective though, finals are neither here nor there if there is no realistic chance of going all the way. If you think there is that chance, the way we've played so far this year, then no wonder you're angry, and good luck with that.

Comments like "We should be 9-3" are so far off reality. We are lucky to be 7-5. Watch how the game is played, not the results. Coaches have always said, just play the game as it needs to be played, and results will take care of themselves. Right now, we don't play well enough to be 9-3. We are in the top 8 because a heap of other teams have been terrible as well, not because we've been awesome. We're working on it, and some weeks we've been good to very good, but winning games doesn't always mean you've played good footy, just less shit than the other team.

We're developing still.
Yesterday was very disappointing and we should have won, but it was another of those games where the team didn't function as it should. It wasn't lost at the selection table or through poor coaching. A lot of individuals let themselves and their mates down. Even Harris Andrews was ordinary in my opinion. Not terrible, just not his usual greatness. Daniel Rich let through a few players through half arsed efforts or lack of second efforts. These guys polled well on your bests, yet both were down on form. I assumed Oscar was left out to further rest his shoulder. He could have played in an emergency, but was probably considered not worth the risk against Carlton. Good decision in the end, because he wouldn't have been the difference we needed. Should we play the best 22 every week? Do we have a best 22? I don't think so, and it's still important for us to be trying and developing different players in different rolls. Our team isn't settled and we're not playing to win a premiership this year. The time will come to go into a season with that mindset, but this year isn't that time.

 

[bato]

I saw a lot of poor efforts yesterday but this one tops the lot.









Imagine getting that so badly wrong. Never felt so angry at a game than when I saw that pathetic defensive effort from both Allison and Rich.

 

[Mighty Lions]

The angst & disagreement on this board all stems from people's varying expectations, both of individuals and the team as a whole.
Before the season started, most would would have agreed that climbing from the bottom of the ladder to somewhere in the middle would be a great result.
We started the year well and suddenly a whole bunch of folk expect us to feature in September. The possibility is still there, that we might finish in the top 8, but what are people's realistic expectation if we do. If we get to September, we were only ever going to be making up the numbers.

Forget about results and ladder position for a minute. If anyone thinks we're playing great footy most weeks, you need to take your rose coloured glasses off. The footy media has made a lot of comment this year about how even or close the competition is, particularly across the teams between 2 and 13th on the ladder. From a pure footballing perspective, there are a lot more teams playing very ordinary footy this year. That's the difference so far. More teams are playing worse and the overall standard is poor. Only Geelong stands out as a consistently good side.

By round 22, I would expect the whole ladder to have settled right down with a clearer pecking order. Teams will be winning and losing the games they should. So, on form so far exposed this year, I wouldn't expect to see the Lions playing football. If we do, then it's an indictment on the game and the standard in September is going to be horribly ordinary. Teams in the 8 shouldn't be missing kicks, tackles, targets and making errors the way we do. And that goes for a great number of teams around us on the ladder. As I said, the standard across the board is terrible, but by September, 8 teams should have that sorted out.

So where do we fit in? We beat a heap of teams early and people's expectations are through the roof. What were your expectations before round 1?
For me, this was always to be another year of development. We got some great talent coming in, but the likes of Neale, Cameron, McCarthy, Lyons hadn't played footy together, and hadn't played with the Lions (Charlie the exception, but with just a handful of games). At the same time we have new young players, in the same boat. It takes time for a team to come together, and learn to function as a well oiled machine. That to me was what this year would be about. Forget finals. We were never supposed to be good enough, and that is still on track to be the case.

The possibility is there, and for other reasons it would be great to make the 8. It's good for the players to taste that level of success. It's good for membership and media exposure, resulting in revenue. It's good for the soul, both for fans and the club. From a purely footballing perspective though, finals are neither here nor there if there is no realistic chance of going all the way. If you think there is that chance, the way we've played so far this year, then no wonder you're angry, and good luck with that.

Comments like "We should be 9-3" are so far off reality. We are lucky to be 7-5. Watch how the game is played, not the results. Coaches have always said, just play the game as it needs to be played, and results will take care of themselves. Right now, we don't play well enough to be 9-3. We are in the top 8 because a heap of other teams have been terrible as well, not because we've been awesome. We're working on it, and some weeks we've been good to very good, but winning games doesn't always mean you've played good footy, just less **** than the other team.

We're developing still.
Yesterday was very disappointing and we should have won, but it was another of those games where the team didn't function as it should. It wasn't lost at the selection table or through poor coaching. A lot of individuals let themselves and their mates down. Even Harris Andrews was ordinary in my opinion. Not terrible, just not his usual greatness. Daniel Rich let through a few players through half arsed efforts or lack of second efforts. These guys polled well on your bests, yet both were down on form. I assumed Oscar was left out to further rest his shoulder. He could have played in an emergency, but was probably considered not worth the risk against Carlton. Good decision in the end, because he wouldn't have been the difference we needed. Should we play the best 22 every week? Do we have a best 22? I don't think so, and it's still important for us to be trying and developing different players in different rolls. Our team isn't settled and we're not playing to win a premiership this year. The time will come to go into a season with that mindset, but this year isn't that time.

Well said Scoob. 100% agree with everything.

 

[Football Pope]

Lost it in the midfield after halfway through the 2nd.. Needed to keep the pressure up in the 2nd quarter and go into half time with a 6 goal lead.

Yep... they moved Walsh off Neale and put Ed Curnow on him...Result Neale had 7 effective touches after half time

 

[lioninthesand]

We’re 7-5 mate.

Really, we should be 9-3 or 8-4 at the very least. Someone mentioned we’re 4-5 out of the last 9. We’re now going backwards IMO when we should’ve solidified our spot in the top 4 by now.

A big reason is the stubbornness at the selection and the continued double standards employed at match committee.

Yeah that was a typo, 7-5.

I disagree. We were 20+ points down in a few of our wins. Id argue we should be exactly where we are.

We clearly arn't a top 4 side on so many levels, so I dont really care to hypothesize about mythical situations where we could or should be. Its ludicrous, we are exceeding expectations.

I also don't buy this selection table stuff. Feels like fans just shouting at clouds for the sake of it. With a healthy list, no one is ever going to agree on selection. Rayner I can understand, its a bit puzzling now. Beyond that, there is no selection dilema so pressing that it costs us wins. It could be said selection is why we are going so well.

Team psychology and belief is what is costing us games and that is symptomatic of a young side. We are getting better but don't believe it yet. We have been losers for so long, we are adjusting to higher expectations.

 

[jackess]

The angst & disagreement on this board all stems from people's varying expectations, both of individuals and the team as a whole.
Before the season started, most would would have agreed that climbing from the bottom of the ladder to somewhere in the middle would be a great result.
We started the year well and suddenly a whole bunch of folk expect us to feature in September. The possibility is still there, that we might finish in the top 8, but what are people's realistic expectation if we do. If we get to September, we were only ever going to be making up the numbers.

Forget about results and ladder position for a minute. If anyone thinks we're playing great footy most weeks, you need to take your rose coloured glasses off. The footy media has made a lot of comment this year about how even or close the competition is, particularly across the teams between 2 and 13th on the ladder. From a pure footballing perspective, there are a lot more teams playing very ordinary footy this year. That's the difference so far. More teams are playing worse and the overall standard is poor. Only Geelong stands out as a consistently good side.

By round 22, I would expect the whole ladder to have settled right down with a clearer pecking order. Teams will be winning and losing the games they should. So, on form so far exposed this year, I wouldn't expect to see the Lions playing football. If we do, then it's an indictment on the game and the standard in September is going to be horribly ordinary. Teams in the 8 shouldn't be missing kicks, tackles, targets and making errors the way we do. And that goes for a great number of teams around us on the ladder. As I said, the standard across the board is terrible, but by September, 8 teams should have that sorted out.

So where do we fit in? We beat a heap of teams early and people's expectations are through the roof. What were your expectations before round 1?
For me, this was always to be another year of development. We got some great talent coming in, but the likes of Neale, Cameron, McCarthy, Lyons hadn't played footy together, and hadn't played with the Lions (Charlie the exception, but with just a handful of games). At the same time we have new young players, in the same boat. It takes time for a team to come together, and learn to function as a well oiled machine. That to me was what this year would be about. Forget finals. We were never supposed to be good enough, and that is still on track to be the case.

The possibility is there, and for other reasons it would be great to make the 8. It's good for the players to taste that level of success. It's good for membership and media exposure, resulting in revenue. It's good for the soul, both for fans and the club. From a purely footballing perspective though, finals are neither here nor there if there is no realistic chance of going all the way. If you think there is that chance, the way we've played so far this year, then no wonder you're angry, and good luck with that.

Comments like "We should be 9-3" are so far off reality. We are lucky to be 7-5. Watch how the game is played, not the results. Coaches have always said, just play the game as it needs to be played, and results will take care of themselves. Right now, we don't play well enough to be 9-3. We are in the top 8 because a heap of other teams have been terrible as well, not because we've been awesome. We're working on it, and some weeks we've been good to very good, but winning games doesn't always mean you've played good footy, just less **** than the other team.

We're developing still.
Yesterday was very disappointing and we should have won, but it was another of those games where the team didn't function as it should. It wasn't lost at the selection table or through poor coaching. A lot of individuals let themselves and their mates down. Even Harris Andrews was ordinary in my opinion. Not terrible, just not his usual greatness. Daniel Rich let through a few players through half arsed efforts or lack of second efforts. These guys polled well on your bests, yet both were down on form. I assumed Oscar was left out to further rest his shoulder. He could have played in an emergency, but was probably considered not worth the risk against Carlton. Good decision in the end, because he wouldn't have been the difference we needed. Should we play the best 22 every week? Do we have a best 22? I don't think so, and it's still important for us to be trying and developing different players in different rolls. Our team isn't settled and we're not playing to win a premiership this year. The time will come to go into a season with that mindset, but this year isn't that time.

We're on track to not be good enough to play finals and that's still the case? Even though we're in the 8 and the only team outside the 8 looking likely to come in only just managed to beat us on their home ground.