Review Round 16, 2023 - Brisbane Lions vs. Richmond

[M Malice]

One thing I’ve noticed when we’ve made the substitution and brought Fort on. When we have either Fort or McInerney playing forward, the ball transitions much more easily out of our defensive 50.

I’m really reluctant to go to a two ruck set up, or in a game where it’s still close late, I’d be really nervous if we substituted out a running player for a ruck.

You meant our F50?

I am with you 100%, the difference has definitely been noticeable... premierships have been won with 1 genuine ruckman in the past.

Fort is pretty slow, while Big O is not elite IMO he has Fort well covered for desperation, "speed" and desire in defence.

 

[martinson]

You meant our F50?

I am with you 100%, the difference has definitely been noticeable... premierships have been won with 1 genuine ruckman in the past.

Fort is pretty slow, while Big O is not elite IMO he has Fort well covered for desperation, "speed" and desire in defence.

Any flags won with only one ruck MM ? Nankervis had Griggs once who wasn't a true ruck but extremely effective. Then they went with Soldo IIRC. Don't know of any others.

 

[bungalow_bill]

So many “I’m the boss” moments from Cam Rayner. Conor McKenna does an incredible amount of unrewarded running. Mounting injuries a concern. “Long bombs to Snake” really needs to be put away while we don’t have a Snake. Richmond were alarmingly poor. Umpires craptastic as ever; pay marks you bastards.

The best Raynor moment was him blocking the Tiger player trying to retrieve the ball from the Lions camp

 

[Rosscoe_666]

Rayner really needs to finish better. Like Bailey. Then he becomes a real matchwinner and fulfill his destiny.

The year off for the ACL was badly timed, but let's all remember that Dustin Martin didn't become "Dusty" until he was 26. Cam's improving with every outing, and I already have a few on him for the Norm.

He's going to be an absolute superstar, but not everyone starts out like Will Ashcroft and Nick Daicos. Hodge didn't. If Rayner can combine his Dusty and Toby traits, we should all be very happy

 

[martinson]

The year off for the ACL was badly timed, but let's all remember that Dustin Martin didn't become "Dusty" until he was 26. Cam's improving with every outing, and I already have a few on him for the Norm.

He's going to be an absolute superstar, but not everyone starts out like Will Ashcroft and Nick Daicos. Hodge didn't. If Rayner can combine his Dusty and Toby traits, we should all be very happy

I just don't get people saying Cam is going to be an absolute superstar. This is his 6th year including his year out and tbh he rarely cracks our best players.

I'm just happy if he continues to improve and becomes a consistent LT player who tears it up every now and then and the rest of the time contributes his role.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I just don't get people saying Cam is going to be an absolute superstar. This is his 6th year including his year out and tbh he rarely cracks our best players.

I'm just happy if he continues to improve and becomes a consistent LT player who tears it up every now and then and the rest of the time contributes his role.

Yeah he's improved a little this season but he's still not contributing consistently enough over 4 quarters to be an A grader (maybe not even a B grader).

Like all those who said Schache would come good just because KPFs develop slower ignoring his glaring lack of competitiveness

 

[Dalions]

Yeah he's improved a little this season but he's still not contributing consistently enough over 4 quarters to be an A grader (maybe not even a B grader).

Like all those who said Schache would come good just because KPFs develop slower ignoring his glaring lack of competitiveness

He is rated above average in many metrics in the Player Ratings.

Easier said than done I know, but if he were to up his average in posessions by 5-6, 1 more goal and 1 more tackle per game, he would be an A grade Forward.
I would have him very comfortably a B grade talent. Pushing B+

 

[bungalow_bill]

He's always going to look like that.

That's what he is.

Perhaps and perhaps not, will have to wait and see. IMO it's a matter of time. Raynors ceiling is enormous

 

[ice444]

I just don't get people saying Cam is going to be an absolute superstar. This is his 6th year including his year out and tbh he rarely cracks our best players.

I'm just happy if he continues to improve and becomes a consistent LT player who tears it up every now and then and the rest of the time contributes his role.

He is only 23 - give him another 2-3 years and see how we go - I would rather have cam than not.

 

[briztoon]

I can see that's an issue. But a bigger issue to me is just having one guy there all day doing all the work or if for instance he got injured then we'd be in real trouble.

Teams have played 2 rucks forever and not lost their run out of defensive 50 but if that's something that particularly applies to us on the limited sample then we have to get a bit creative with how we structure our set up and bench interchange. Lots of big games I recall particularly finals where a second ruck has been an advantage late in games. Fort coming in cold for one quarter when he's not going to ruck is asking a lot of him I agree. I actually thought he was ok on Thursday ,but of course everyone was.

Sorry, I meant our forward 50.

As soon as we take a small out of the forward 50 and put McInerney or Fort up forward, if we don't score, the opposition team rebounds the ball out of our forward 50 so easily.

It has been really noticeable the last two weeks.

Richmond won in 2017 with Nankervis as ruck and Riewoldt as their only recognisable key forward. No second ruck or key forward.

As I said before, carrying a second ruck as our substitute worries me a little going in to finals.

 

[Grasshopper17]

As I said before, carrying a second ruck as our substitute worries me a little going in to finals.

The key is being able to force contests and/or bring the ball to ground in our forward line regardless of how many tall forwards we have. Once we show we can compete we can play with any number of tall forwards. But not before.

 

[dlanod]

Geelong won last year with Stanley as their ruck and Blicavs as, realistically, a tall midfielder.
2021 Melbourne had Jackson as their backup, which is fine but exceptional.
2020 Richmond's second ruck was Vlastuin, who got two hitouts.
2019 Richmond had Soldo in a legit two ruck setup.
2018 West Coast had Vardy who... well, eh.
2017 was the year of Grigg who had exactly zero HOs in the GF.
2016 the Dogs didn't even have one recognised ruckman due to injury, instead going with a tall defender (Roughead), forward (Boyd), and midfielder (Bont).
Before that you're getting into the Hawthorn years who had David Hale

David Hale

Age

40

Ht

201cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.6

3star

K

5.7

2star

HB

4.9

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

6.6

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

0.4

3star

playing that "he's a forward selected purely because he can contest in the ruck" role.

At most it's 50/50 between a one or two ruck setup.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I can see that's an issue. But a bigger issue to me is just having one guy there all day doing all the work or if for instance he got injured then we'd be in real trouble.

Teams have played 2 rucks forever and not lost their run out of defensive 50 but if that's something that particularly applies to us on the limited sample then we have to get a bit creative with how we structure our set up and bench interchange. Lots of big games I recall particularly finals where a second ruck has been an advantage late in games. Fort coming in cold for one quarter when he's not going to ruck is asking a lot of him I agree. I actually thought he was ok on Thursday ,but of course everyone was.

Fort needs to come in when we play Melbourne. Oscar is a GUN but Gawn and Grundy will wear him down. Having Daniher ‘pinch hit’ in the ruck is not the answer:

a. Because he is not very good at it.

b. Because he is too valuable an asset to risk getting injured. We are one clash of knees or bad landing away from disaster with Daniher in the ruck.

 

[Dalions]

Fort needs to come in when we play Melbourne. Oscar is a GUN but Gawn and Grundy will wear him down. Having Daniher ‘pinch hit’ in the ruck is not the answer:

a. Because he is not very good at it.

b. Because he is too valuable an asset to risk getting injured. We are one clash of knees or bad landing away from disaster with Daniher in the ruck.

It worked earlier in the year so I think Fages will be happy to go into this game with the same set up.
Although Melbourne had Gawn go down in that first game very early on and we then worked over Grundy.

 

[Section 5]

It worked earlier in the year so I think Fages will be happy to go into this game with the same set up.
Although Melbourne had Gawn go down in that first game very early on and we then worked over Grundy.

Gawn only played the first 6 minutes of that game so not really a good guide.
I think it is 50/50 chance whether Fagan goes 1 or 2 rucks v Demons.

One thing is certain, if he decides on 1 ruck Fort will be the sub.
He can inject Fort into the game at any time.

 

[On the quiet]

View attachment 1726357

Richo lost a bet with Hodge on Channel 7 and had to buy a Lions membership.

Not the smartest bet by Richo as Lions were approx $130 and Tigers about $3.20.

 

[rye]

we did not use fort against fremantle and oscar at worst broke even with darcy + jackson combo

i would consider fremantle's ruck duo to be a more difficult matchup in terms of ruck contests than the melbourne duo this year

think we could go the usual oscar solo ruck with daniher chop out against melbourne and be fine

 

[Nathan Barley]

we did not use fort against fremantle and oscar at worst broke even with darcy + jackson combo

i would consider fremantle's ruck duo to be a more difficult matchup in terms of ruck contests than the melbourne duo this year

think we could go the usual oscar solo ruck with daniher chop out against melbourne and be fine

Other option would be to rest Oscar this week and allow him to be fresh to ruck 80% or more against Melbourne

 

[Section 5]

Other option would be to rest Oscar this week and allow him to be fresh to ruck 80% or more against Melbourne

I would rest Oscar this week that should freshen him up for the remaining 7 H & A games.
Those being Demons, Cats, Suns, Dockers, Crows, Pies & Saints.
Then everyone gets a break going into finals.

 

[Dalions]

Other option would be to rest Oscar this week and allow him to be fresh to ruck 80% or more against Melbourne

I honestly think that Oscar is a momentum player.
He he more he plays the better he gets imo.
I don’t think he needs a rest when he has only played 4 games since a bye.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I honestly think that Oscar is a momentum player.
He he more he plays the better he gets imo.
I don’t think he needs a rest when he has only played 4 games since a bye.

It's not a need vs not need scenario

It's a question of would the team benefit from him being fresher when coming up against 2 quality rucks who would try to run off him and out work him being I a 2 on 1 ruck scenario.

Plus the team would benefit from any extra time he keeps Joe away from the ruck

 

[3KZ is Football]

It's not a need vs not need scenario

It's a question of would the team benefit from him being fresher when coming up against 2 quality rucks who would try to run off him and out work him being I a 2 on 1 ruck scenario.

Plus the team would benefit from any extra time he keeps Joe away from the ruck

Nathan Barley makes a really good point here. Watching the St.Kilda game at the ground it was really apparent that the momentum swung St.Kilda’s way as soon as Daniher went to have a crack in the ruck. Again, the issue of him getting injured in the ruck really looms large in my mind. In the “GOD WE HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS” event that Daniher is injured in the ruck, the first thing people will rightly say is “what on earth was he doing in the ruck? Why wouldn’t you play Fort if you need a second ruckman?”

An analogy I would use would be, if you owned Winx at the height of her powers, would you lend her to a farmer mate to spend a weekend rounding up cattle?

 

[martinson]

Geelong won last year with Stanley as their ruck and Blicavs as, realistically, a tall midfielder.
2021 Melbourne had Jackson as their backup, which is fine but exceptional.
2020 Richmond's second ruck was Vlastuin, who got two hitouts.
2019 Richmond had Soldo in a legit two ruck setup.
2018 West Coast had Vardy who... well, eh.
2017 was the year of Grigg who had exactly zero HOs in the GF.
2016 the Dogs didn't even have one recognised ruckman due to injury, instead going with a tall defender (Roughead), forward (Boyd), and midfielder (Bont).
Before that you're getting into the Hawthorn years who had David Hale playing that "he's a forward selected purely because he can contest in the ruck" role.

At most it's 50/50 between a one or two ruck setup.

Don't agree entirely Dlanod.

Geelong had Stanley ,Blicavs ,De Koning and Hawkins who could all ruck . And a particular advantage in Hawkins whom you would have to say is a recognised ruckman in the forward line.

Jackson and Gawn is an exceptional combo.

Richmond who had a particular game style that worked exceptionally well in their era and relied on fast ball movement ,which included the covid seasons , but Grigg was an out of nowhere stand in for most of the year. They did have Soldo in one of the others. In the 2020 outlier year Geelong also named only one recognised ruckman.

West coast played 2 recognised ruckmen

The Dogs played a style similar to the Tigers . Roughead ended up a recognised ruckman. Bevo also said Boyd was a better ruckman than forward , just the way the game played out. Also the Swans played only one recognised ruckman

The Hawks had Hale and McEvoy.

The Swans had Pyke and Mumford

Geelong had West and Owens , with Hawkins forward

You also need to look at the runners up who got there and played 2 recognised ruckmen .

Obviously it's not indicative but overall the more successful teams have 2 recognised ruckmen. And where they didn't nor did the opposition

All circumstances are different and the cream on the cake is if your second ruckman can play somewhere around the ground like Jackson and Blicavs .Geelong in fact were a really tall team . Overpowered the opposition that year. But plenty of examples where the 2nd ruck could do little else but ruck and hopefully take a grab up forward.

 

[briztoon]

Geelong won last year with Stanley as their ruck and Blicavs as, realistically, a tall midfielder.
2021 Melbourne had Jackson as their backup, which is fine but exceptional.
2020 Richmond's second ruck was Vlastuin, who got two hitouts.
2019 Richmond had Soldo in a legit two ruck setup.
2018 West Coast had Vardy who... well, eh.
2017 was the year of Grigg who had exactly zero HOs in the GF.
2016 the Dogs didn't even have one recognised ruckman due to injury, instead going with a tall defender (Roughead), forward (Boyd), and midfielder (Bont).
Before that you're getting into the Hawthorn years who had David Hale playing that "he's a forward selected purely because he can contest in the ruck" role.

At most it's 50/50 between a one or two ruck setup.

Was Grigg, at 191cm even considered a ruck?

 

[Mr Ripper]

Oh, he's sung alright.