Autopsy Round 16, 2024: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[gringo2011]

Thoughts:

• Am I the only one who noticed we looked better in the middle as soon as Campbell was subbed off?
• Also, if we're going to continue down this path, it's time to play Heath and not Campbell. We're 0-4 with Campbell in the team.
• almost everything good around our (limited) scoring yesterday had a Hunter Clark involvement.
• Pay Josh Battle
• The turning point of the game was Max King's point. Not that he missed, but that he ever got the ball. Mitch Owens beat three blokes, kept the ball in, got into position in the goal square where he could have a straightforward snap and... handballed.

This encapsulates to me what the issue is - we have a team of underdogs who don't want the moment. At that stage, Owens has to want to kick the goal himself. To be the man. And he didn't. From that moment on we were going to lose. And no amount of early draft picks will change this, because any skillful player with confidence will have it drained out of them unless the attitude to winning inside the club changes.

Campbell made a huge difference last week but this week Sweet had him covered and had no real difference.

 

[GTrains Mullet]

If we do that, seeing that Caminiti & Sharman have had runs in the backline, would it be worth giving King a couple of games there? Remember Ben played there in his early years, might do him good with a different kind of pressure.

My gut feel is that could add more pressure. If he has a stinker down back we’d all be tuning up to RSEA park with pitchforks.

I think our best shot is to get him roaming up forward, also might be worth giving him 5 minutes in the ruck to get him in the game.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

The turning point of the game was Max King's point. Not that he missed, but that he ever got the ball. Mitch Owens beat three blokes, kept the ball in, got into position in the goal square where he could have a straightforward snap and... handballed.

This encapsulates to me what the issue is - we have a team of underdogs who don't want the moment. At that stage, Owens has to want to kick the goal himself. To be the man. And he didn't. From that moment on we were going to lose. And no amount of early draft picks will change this, because any skillful player with confidence will have it drained out of them unless the attitude to winning inside the club changes.

This is a good take. I thought the same thing. Classic 2024 St Kilda for a player to fight, scrap, do all the work and then give an unnecessary handball to a player who fluffs the opportunity instead of just kicking the damn goal yourself when it's entirely within your capability.

 

[gringo2011]

Thats the pressure of professional sport. Some can take it, some can’t. Being okay if there is no pressure to perform is not, unfortunately, a realistic expectation nor a realistic solution.

Sure, he could get another big body to support, but he could also lead…

He's doing exactly what Kosi did under Lyon, I'd say it's a game plan thing. Also every tall forward at St Kilda has had similar issues since Lyon came back. They've all regressed. Owens has gone from a bull around goals to a low impact stagnant player. Hammer lost all impact after looking like a stud last year. Sharman regressed etc. Membrey is barely capable after being a reliable 30+ goal kicker for years and still only 30.

Sometimes you wonder if it's coaching not the players.

 

[austinnn]

I am a country member

Of course I remember!

(I suppose I'm not the first to jump on this rare Gough Witlam joke opportunity, but I just got up and haven't read the other posts yet)

 

[Saints43]

He's been shit since he knee blew out. He started the year in great form but hasn't been the same since. We should be booking him in for surgery now and get him right for 2025. He's looking dispirited and done beat. You would rather losing with a keen Phillipou and Garcia than a broken down Steele, Clark and Dow.

I thought Steele was really good around the ground.
Nobody got the job done in the middle though.

I'd look dispirited too if I had plodders like Clark and Dow lining up alongside me against some of the games best.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

I’ve said it before but playing in this forward line would be the most demoralising and draining job. There is a reason we’ve seen drops in output from membrey, caminiti, Owens, Pou, Sharman and now King.
You are forever losing the clearance and rushing back to help defence, then you are rushing back forward where the kick is never to your advantage.
It’s also as if they’ve been coached to be like Harvey. Emotionless and humble. They kick a goal and it’s sort of like a sigh instead of a celebration. You play to the Ross style not your strengths.
You’ll never be a Coleman medalist in a Ross team.

 

[Nutsngum]

He's doing exactly what Kosi did under Lyon, I'd say it's a game plan thing. Also every tall forward at St Kilda has had similar issues since Lyon came back. They've all regressed. Owens has gone from a bull around goals to a low impact stagnant player. Hammer lost all impact after looking like a stud last year. Sharman regressed etc. Membrey is barely capable after being a reliable 30+ goal kicker for years and still only 30.

Sometimes you wonder if it's coaching not the players.

What tall forwards? The only tall forwards other then King that was on the list when Lyon came in was Allison and Hayes. Allison doesnt have what it takes at AFL and Hayes' knee is basically ****ed from the ACL he sustained in 2022 before Lyon.

Keeler and Caminiti were both 2022 draft/2023 pre-season so have only been under Lyon and Owens breakout year was specifically under Lyon.

The only forward who has gone "backwards" so to say is Membrey and that may just be a case of his body just starting to become tired and removing his best weapons.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

He's doing exactly what Kosi did under Lyon, I'd say it's a game plan thing. Also every tall forward at St Kilda has had similar issues since Lyon came back. They've all regressed. Owens has gone from a bull around goals to a low impact stagnant player. Hammer lost all impact after looking like a stud last year. Sharman regressed etc. Membrey is barely capable after being a reliable 30+ goal kicker for years and still only 30.

Sometimes you wonder if it's coaching not the players.

literally all we did under richo/ratts was bomb it long and have it picked off by intercept defenders, at least with lyon we are trying to implement a fast attack gameplan, just failing hard

we had a brief moment of joe the gooses with ratts which lasted about 10 games

 

[Saint Shags]

According to rtb the game plan was devised by the assistants and he let them run with it.
Time to take it back rtb.

Yeah I'm not believing that one.
We're paying him how much just to sit back and let the rest of the coaching team do the work?

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Also every tall forward at St Kilda has had similar issues since Lyon came back. They've all regressed.

Allison doesnt have what it takes at AFL

If Allison regressed the ball would be kicking him

 

[Desperate saint]

Food for thought.
Steele was the only Mid who had over 20 touches for us (had 25).

How the hell is Max meant to thrive in a team where the Mids are getting smashed?

Yeah he doesn't help himself at times with some efforts, but we can't win it at the contest and give him a genuine chance when opposition defence hasn't set up.

He needs to be better, but it's not all his fault. Chip it along the wing coming out of D50 and then he has to out mark 2-3 opponents, which key forward has thrived in that sort of game style?

On Pixel 7 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Agree Chip chip chip starting with our regualtion kick out 15 meters to each pocket EVERY single time -thats why the opposition chipped in on Sincs because that is our only outlet kick

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Just on Windhager tagging

Yesterday he was opposed to Butters however we saw early on that Butters was just too slick for him ... too much of that burst whippet speed that Windy struggled to get near him

In the previous weeks before this he had worked over and got the better of -

Harley Reid (only 19yo) - struggled being tagged
Miller (14 disposals) - not quick
Neale (20 disposals) - not quick

These players are slower and more of your bullocking types

Clearly Butters was the wrong tagging match up for Windy who is not the quickest and lacks that 0 to 3 second explosive burst

All of those Port mids ... Butters, Rozee & Horny have insane immediate burst speed but they also can fade in and out of games so maybe there was no match up for Windy yesterday and we should have let him run free and cause his own damage rather try and negate

This week v the Swans they have Warner Heeney & Gulden ..... all can be damagining but not sure they have that whippet burst ... closest being Warner in that regard

I would use Windy on Gulden who isnt overly quick .... get him to negate that damaging left foot .... he should have the stamina to go with him.

We beat Sydney last year in Sydney .... reckon it could be tighter than people think if our backline can also keep their talls in check

 

[Desperate saint]

Theres three things that are impacting King.

1) We rely on him as the only Key forward too much. Riewoldt had the G-Train and then Kosi and then Bruce to work in tandem with his whole career. King has had basically no one and then a 19yo Caminiti for a handful of games the last season and a half.

2) Our forward line connection is our biggest heel and often does not suit King who has to deal with not knowing if its coming in high or to an advantage. A good example last night was in that final quarter when the kick ended up coming in high and on top of his head and was picked off by Picennet. King was in front of his player expecting it to be a run on hit up but instead had to immediately push back against his opponent and was pushed off it. Yes he needs to be stronger but thats stacking the odds against him.

3) The media and social commentary is both unending, extremely critical and very very quick to forget. 2022 he kicked 52 goals as a 21yo, 2023 he had his arm ripped out and came back from it to actually perform better off less games including 3 goals in a final. He started this year working further up the field and doubled his disposal counts before a knee injury that could still be effecting him.

He is absolutely having a bad season as a whole and was awful on sunday but heres the thing... he is having a bad 12 games.

12 games, of which three of those were still decent games of 3 goals anyway and EVERYONE is talking about his career being a waste and that he should be traded.

That is utter ridiculous talk from both the media and the socials (including here) based on a ****ing tiny sample size.

Now take a consideration on how this might actually be effecting him mentally and you might get an idea of why it doesnt look like he is enjoying his football at the moment. Kosi said in an interview years ago that that he was basically hating football for a large portion of his career due to the outside pressures and currently thats exactly whats happening to King right now.


So how do we actually help him is the question that should be getting asked?

Drop him? It has potential to allow him to gain confidence against lesser opposition but is he going to be able to dominate with another average midfield?

Rest him? Perhaps the niggles are just getting too much for performance, only the physios can really judge that one fairly.

Better coaches? I do believe we need a different forwards coach and possibly someone else who can focus on just the key position players but this is impacted by the soft cap (something Lyon has spoken about a bunch as being a massive issue in getting the best people in) Harvey is probably better being a head assistant then taking the forwards.

Give him time. People are ignoring how debilitating shoulder injuries can be and that it can be over a year before your body really starts to come good and you feel confident in it again. I had my wrist broken in a tackle in 2021 and it took a good year before I could really trust it to be 100%. Its been 9 months since King had his shoulder surgery.

Positional change? Ross alluded to more ruck work. Making him play more like how Daniher does and really push him up the ground a lot more (almost play him on the wing) might get him into the game a heap more.

Get someone to help him? Trade in 25+ big bodied KPP who can actually take the heat from him and support him. Neither Caminiti nor Keeler are ready for that position (and are playing defense for the moment).

Lots of options on the table really and its going to be a combination that will be the key I feel.

so well said

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Agree Chip chip chip starting with our regualtion kick out 15 meters to each pocket EVERY single time -thats why the opposition chipped in on Sincs because that is our only outlet kick

We got to get more creative out from full back

In one instance ... actually probably more .... we had 3 chip kicks which got to 30-40m out from their goal and then they looked down the line and not one single Saints player was in motion .... they were just standing there waiting for the kick .... no one working for each other

Not sure why they don't use Arie for kick ins .... run 20m and he could probably kick it over the center divide .... he has a weapon .... flipping use it!!!!

We got to get more creative and get the opposition 2nd guessing with these kick outs

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Gee Dow has been a bit of a disappointment this year. I know he had an injury interrupted preseason, but seven possessions playing as a mid? Cmon.

King might be like Billings unfortunately. Showed a lot of promise, but never quite got there in the end. Hopefully I’m wrong, but I’m concerned.

Honestly he’s done better than I expected, this is about his level at Carlton

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Nice statement , totally lacking in evidence.
When has Clark been less fit?

Dow has no cardiovascular fitness, but i'm not seeing him do great stuff even at the start of the game.
He was a dud at Carlton and we bought the dud.
SOS should be sacked for knowing what he was and still getting him.

It’s ok. We only used like pick 40 or something on him. Though we lost Coffield for about the same pick in. Coffield I’m still sad about

 

[akaifu]

It’s ok. We only used like pick 40 or something on him. Though we lost Coffield for about the same pick in. Coffield I’m still sad about

No need to be sad about Coff. If he was still here, he wouldn't be best 22 and probs still injured. Arie is miles better despite not being completely like-for-like, while Keeler looks like he'll pass him too

 

[Saint Watto]

Moving him on now with minimal benefit or return would be seriously flawed. That only benefits every club but St Kilda. For the large part of his career, he’s shown he can play. I think innovating his role might be the best option, get him playing a high forward role. I agree with some comments, he’s such a good field kick, it’s probably the best fit right now.

Moving big Maxy on would be absolutely crazy.

Yes....he's going thru the worst patch of form since he's been with us.

He's 23.

How many key fowards(may need a fact check on this one) have had the injuries that Max has sustained over the last 1.5 seasons.

He's not built like Steven May.....he's slighter frame would ensure that impact injuries will have more....ummm.......impact and possibly greater recovery times.

There's so many moving pieces connected to Max atm.......it's hard to exactly identify where the problem starts/finishes.

 

[Cairnsman]

How disappointing has Dow been, I mean I never thought he'd be anything other than a depth player but he's been very average.

 

[Cairnsman]

Moving big Maxy on would be absolutely crazy.

Yes....he's going thru the worst patch of form since he's been with us.

He's 23.

How many key fowards(may need a fact check on this one) have had the injuries that Max has sustained over the last 1.5 seasons.

He's not built like Steven May.....he's slighter frame would ensure that impact injuries will have more....ummm.......impact and possibly greater recovery times.

There's so many moving pieces connected to Max atm.......it's hard to exactly identify where the problem starts/finishes.

Hopefully Ross listens to Leigh Matthews advice and trials Max in the ruck.

Trading him is crazy talk, we should steal his pet dog and hold it hostage first to see if that motivates him.

 

[littlecreatures]

Hopefully Ross listens to Leigh Matthews advice and trials Max in the ruck.

Trading him is crazy talk, we should steal his pet dog and hold it hostage first to see if that motivates him.

That’s a great idea, how have I not thought of this. Let’s unleash the canine inside of Ming.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

 

[beside the seaside]

How disappointing has Dow been, I mean I never thought he'd be anything other than a depth player but he's been very average.

We're gonna have to hope he has a pre-season next year. It seems that knee injury really stuffed him. When he gets it I like the look of him but he's just not in games enough at the moment.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Campbell made a huge difference last week but this week Sweet had him covered and had no real difference.

Agree - Campbell himself wasn't great but he did free up Marshall who kicked 3.1 before Campbell was subbed out in the 3rd qtr.

Once Marshall went back to ruck duties he kicked another behind and we collectively scored a miserable total of 2 additional goals.