Review Round 2, 2025 - Brisbane Lions vs. West Coast

[LionCub29]

I thought Jaspa played an outstanding game when it really mattered. I think the comparisons in a decades time between the playing careers of him, Will and Levi might surprise a few.

 

[Saucery]

Probably wrong place to put this but Cam Raynor when compared to other recent No.1 picks.

Andrew McGrath 2016 - Middling at best, has not developed.
Cam Raynor 2017 - Premiership player 2024.
Sam Walsh 2018 - Talented but mostly injured.
Matt Rowell 2019 - Probably as consistent as CR in effort and effect.
JUH 2020 - LOL WOW.
JHF 2021 - Downhill skier.
Aaron Cadman 2022 - OK the kid can play.
Harley Reid 2023 - Man boy.
Sam Laylor - Welcome.

For mine Cam is the best and most accomplished on that list of no.1 draft picks for the last 8 drafts, got a shiny medal to boot.

 

[briztoon]

Probably wrong place to put this but Cam Raynor when compared to other recent No.1 picks.

Andrew McGrath 2016 - Middling at best, has not developed.
Cam Raynor 2017 - Premiership player 2024.
Sam Walsh 2018 - Talented but mostly injured.
Matt Rowell 2019 - Probably as consistent as CR in effort and effect.
JUH 2020 - LOL WOW.
JHF 2021 - Downhill skier.
Aaron Cadman 2022 - OK the kid can play.
Harley Reid 2023 - Man boy.
Sam Laylor - Welcome.

For mine Cam is the best and most accomplished on that list of no.1 draft picks for the last 8 drafts, got a shiny medal to boot.

That's a fair amount of copium you're smoking there.

Rayner is far, far from consistent. As the weekend demonstrates.

Excluding Lalor, Reid and Cadman, most of the rest of those number one picks are consistently better than Cam.

McGrath was never a mid, but he's a pretty good HB and more consistent player, just stuck on a really average team.

Walsh is often injured, but when healthy has performed more consistently at a much higher level.

So to Matty Rowell. He's way more consistent than Rayner, performs at higher level, and hopefully is over his injuries.

Until this year, and his disappearing act, JUH has been as inconsistent as Rayner. Capable of ripping a game apart or disappearing.

I wish Rayner was as consistent as JHF, who has had way more almost there games than Cam. I would almost guarantee that JHF has had more high performing games than Cam.

Cam really has been the ultimate "moments man", rather than playing an actually 4 quarter game.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Overall it looked like some of our blokes more than others rocked up not really ready to respect the opponent. It definitely wasn't everyone - you could tell guys like Zorks were treating it like any other game and was getting a bit antsy with some of his team mates who were not. But the flipside was the likes of Cam and Washcroft perhaps trying to take the tackler on too often instead of giving the ball to a team mate in a better position. Just looked a bit too cocky to me. The easiest option is usually the best - that's the whole reason teams have "game plans".

Still a little worried about Will and Levi's propensity to handball to each other, simply because they're brothers. At one point in the second quarter, Levi marked a kick forward from Bruce, Bruce came charging past on the inside, ready to receive the easy handball and kick inside 50. But instead Levi decided to handball out wide to Will who was much further away and obviously close the boundary. It was a bad decision, the execution was not great and it either resulted in a throw in or a turnover, can't quite remember which.

Credit where it's due tho - Will was good in the last quarter when he probably needed to lift a bit. And Cam despite having not a lot of the ball still made a game-high 8 tackles which seems significant. He was able to keep himself involved defensively even when he wasn't involved in an attacking sense.

Overall a good effort to get back into the game I thought. Sometimes when you give the underdog a sniff like that they can be very hard to run down. On current form we might learn that the hard way in a fortnight against Richmond. But we did enough to win relatively comfortably in the end. We'd want to be cognisant of our starts though - the Swans made a habit of being slow starters last season, and in the end they were in such a deep hole by half time of the Grand Final they couldn't get out of it.

I was very impressed with Fletcher in defence. Not just his ability to play on and beat an opponent, but also his ability to read the play, know when to zone off and intercept. Along with his brilliant goal of course, the way he marked in front of a Payne and Allen(?) contest in the 2nd quarter was a feature of his game.

Compare that to Payne playing as our spare defender at one stage in the 1st quarter, when he allowed himself to end up far too close to the boundary line. This happened right in front of us on the right forward flank. It just made it so easy for the Eagles attacking foray to completely bypass him, and the result was Allen's bouncing goal - West Coast's 5th. If our mentality is that anyone in our back 7 is able to drop off and play that spare man role, Payne simply needs to be better, and smarter.

Fletch on first glance however has taken to that role like a duck to water, which is bloody impressive for someone with little experience in that part of the ground, and who arguably lacks the height to play it effectively.

Just on Oscar Allen as well, yesterday's performance was hardly a ringing endorsement for why he would want to join our club. All our forward ball movement was either slow to a congested forward line, or we pushed everyone up the ground so nobody inside 50 to kick to. A couple of times Ah Chee did a great job to read the play quicker than anyone else and get those goals out the back.

But more often we looked up, saw nobody forward and had to "tread water", give the ball laterally to someone, try not to turn the ball over, and wait for our forward zone to fill up. We will certainly not get those liberties this Saturday night.

 

[The Zork]

Lloyd taken aim at W Ashcroft and his 1-2s and I have to agree with him somewhat.
The give and go Will uses is getting the team in a bit of trouble at times.

I disagree that he his trying to pump up his stats - he uses it more to get separation from opponents imo.

Looks great when it comes off but at the moment it’s putting the receiver under all sorts of pressure and is becoming a source for a turnover. Will can be a bit of a plodder going the other way to chase so this needs to sharpen up.

We are not quite yet chaining together at 100% this time of year for it to come off consistently.

He’ll clean it up but it’s just a watch for me.

 

[Sproj]

We’re super rusty, have some key players out and are a bit banged up still from last season. We should not be expecting perfection yet. We might even lose a couple in the next couple of weeks but I expect us to come home with a wet sail.

 

[martinson]

Not sure Will and Levi being in the same team is helping either of them at the moment. They'll work it out.

 

[Tom14]

That's a fair amount of copium you're smoking there.

Rayner is far, far from consistent. As the weekend demonstrates.

Excluding Lalor, Reid and Cadman, most of the rest of those number one picks are consistently better than Cam.

McGrath was never a mid, but he's a pretty good HB and more consistent player, just stuck on a really average team.

Walsh is often injured, but when healthy has performed more consistently at a much higher level.

So to Matty Rowell. He's way more consistent than Rayner, performs at higher level, and hopefully is over his injuries.

Until this year, and his disappearing act, JUH has been as inconsistent as Rayner. Capable of ripping a game apart or disappearing.

I wish Rayner was as consistent as JHF, who has had way more almost there games than Cam. I would almost guarantee that JHF has had more high performing games than Cam.

Cam really has been the ultimate "moments man", rather than playing an actually 4 quarter game.

JHF’s ‘consistency’:



Agree completely that Cam is just a moments player, though his back half of last year was genuinely elite. First two games this year very very quiet.

JHF has a long way to go to string things together consistently. Might help if he ever decided to run defensively.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Yes , Bez was good all game , I gave him votes too , he was everywhere in that first half .

Me too. He was great.

 

[Section 5]

I thought Berry was one of just a few who kept us within striking distance by halftime. BOG at that stage for mine.
Had 17 disposals 8 marks and 2 tackles in the first half. Dropped off a bit mainly in the last quarter with just 3 disposals.
His 2nd half 9 disposals 4 marks and 2 tackles

 

[briztoon]

JHF’s ‘consistency’:

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Agree completely that Cam is just a moments player, though his back half of last year was genuinely elite. First two games this year very very quiet.

JHF has a long way to go to string things together consistently. Might help if he ever decided to run defensively.

Like Cam is a noted defensive runner?

Look, I'm not knocking Cam in my post, just disagreeing with the OP that Cam is a better or more consistent player. JHF has a bigger tank than Cam, and has already had many more impactful games than Cam. JHF might be a one way runner, but I've said the same about McCluggage, WAshcroft, Bailey, and Cam in the past. JHF is 4 years younger than Cam, I'm sure he'll improve more as he matures.

Dusty was never a defensive runner, but he has a Brownlow and 3 Norm Smiths.

 

[Tom14]

Like Cam is a noted defensive runner?

Look, I'm not knocking Cam in my post, just disagreeing with the OP that Cam is a better or more consistent player. JHF has a bigger tank than Cam, and has already had many more impactful games than Cam. JHF might be a one way runner, but I've said the same about McCluggage, WAshcroft, Bailey, and Cam in the past. JHF is 4 years younger than Cam, I'm sure he'll improve more as he matures.

Dusty was never a defensive runner, but he has a Brownlow and 3 Norm Smiths.

I don’t disagree with much in your original post, really I just wanted to pot JHF.

I think our players have got miles better at defensive running in the last few years. Port’s kids (drew aside) have not.

 

[Tom14]

Lloyd taken aim at W Ashcroft and his 1-2s and I have to agree with him somewhat.
The give and go Will uses is getting the team in a bit of trouble at times.

I disagree that he his trying to pump up his stats - he uses it more to get separation from opponents imo.

Looks great when it comes off but at the moment it’s putting the receiver under all sorts of pressure and is becoming a source for a turnover. Will can be a bit of a plodder going the other way to chase so this needs to sharpen up.

We are not quite yet chaining together at 100% this time of year for it to come off consistently.

He’ll clean it up but it’s just a watch for me.

In typical Llordo fashion he’s cherry picked the literal worst example where it went badly, rather than the many times it works (including 4-5 times in the grand final just off the top of my head).

Totally agree with your point that will is trying to get separation and my point would be that we need him to keep doing it. It’s a point of difference ball movement wise that we need to have a change of pace from just the kick mark game.

 

[luthor]

Rayner didn't have a great game from a possessions/ score impact point of view.

But why do we have this obsession with measuring him by these parameters?

He had a team high 8 tackles, so he found a way to have an influence on the game anyway. This is a characteristic that Fages has drilled into this team. If you're not having your best game in one area, find some other way to contribute

He's playing half forward coming up to the midfield as required. That can be a tough gig.

I still get goose bumps when I replay that left foot bomb from 52 meters that sealed the Prelim against Geelong,

He's a match winner when it counts

 

[T Rick]

Were there any MRO findings from Sunday's game against the Eagles?

 

[Elixuh]

You can only compare Rayner to other players who play a similar role. You can't compare him to random players who play wildly different roles, like the guy that puts the vanilla in vanilla ice cream, Andy McGrath.

 

[Tom14]

You can only compare Rayner to other players who play a similar role. You can't compare him to random players who play wildly different roles, like the guy that puts the vanilla in vanilla ice cream, Andy McGrath.

I really need someone to make a gif of Cam kicking the sealer in the prelim to post when anyone criticises him.

 

[martinson]

Rayner didn't have a great game from a possessions/ score impact point of view.

But why do we have this obsession with measuring him by these parameters?

He had a team high 8 tackles, so he found a way to have an influence on the game anyway. This is a characteristic that Fages has drilled into this team. If you're not having your best game in one area, find some other way to contribute

He's playing half forward coming up to the midfield as required. That can be a tough gig.

I still get goose bumps when I replay that left foot bomb from 52 meters that sealed the Prelim against Geelong,

It's the cough ups and miskicks that do my head in. Keep getting 23 GF vibes.

How many times has he been a match winner ? Not as many as Ah Chee.

He looked like he turned the corner at stages during 24 and being an impact player it usually takes those sort of players time to build into the season compared to your workhorse players.

Levi coming in has pushed him out of the M/F somewhat and Ah Chee and Lohman offer more up forward.

If he concentrates on his tackling, throwing his weight around in contests and stoppages and generally giving us some physical grunt that's fine with me and hopefully he pulls out a pearler or two when needed as the season progresses.

 

[Saucery]

That's a fair amount of copium you're smoking there.

Rayner is far, far from consistent. As the weekend demonstrates.

Excluding Lalor, Reid and Cadman, most of the rest of those number one picks are consistently better than Cam.

McGrath was never a mid, but he's a pretty good HB and more consistent player, just stuck on a really average team.

Walsh is often injured, but when healthy has performed more consistently at a much higher level.

So to Matty Rowell. He's way more consistent than Rayner, performs at higher level, and hopefully is over his injuries.

Until this year, and his disappearing act, JUH has been as inconsistent as Rayner. Capable of ripping a game apart or disappearing.

I wish Rayner was as consistent as JHF, who has had way more almost there games than Cam. I would almost guarantee that JHF has had more high performing games than Cam.

Cam really has been the ultimate "moments man", rather than playing an actually 4 quarter game.

Copium unnecessary, sorry if you didn't cotton onto the fact the post is mostly tongue in cheek

 

[martinson]

Copium unnecessary, sorry if you didn't cotton onto the fact the post is mostly tongue in cheek

Don't wanna stir up a hornet's nest but I'd take any of the players Britzoon mentioned over Cam except JUH whose own team leaders refuse to play with him . Cam obviously can do things McGrath can't but McGrath is an honest goer who generally plays well stuck in a crap system.

Cam's still young enough to be the player people imagine him to be. But I don't think with his tank and the type of player he is you can expect him to do it regularly so in the meantime he can focus on doing what he can for the team.

 

[Nunez]

Would McGrath be best 22 in our team? Who is he displacing?

 

[Tom14]

Don't wanna stir up a hornet's nest but I'd take any of the players Britzoon mentioned over Cam except JUH whose own team leaders refuse to play with him . Cam obviously can do things McGrath can't but McGrath is an honest goer who generally plays well stuck in a crap system.

Cam's still young enough to be the player people imagine him to be. But I don't think with his tank and the type of player he is you can expect him to do it regularly so in the meantime he can focus on doing what he can for the team.

Tapping the sign again:

 

[martinson]

Tapping the sign again:

That's fine for a player who does it often enough.

Players like that get overrated because when they do something they look unbeatable. He's a luxury we an afford because we have a great team. Not much point getting into it but I was just responding to Britzoon's post where I would take any of the players mentioned over him bar JUH and line ball McGrath. And Britzoon made the case.

They're all good players. As long as Cam plays his role ,whatever it is , and plays a blinder for a quarter every now and then then that's fine. But relying on those players to win flags on the day is not a good strategy. Dusty did it , Ablett Snr couldn't do it and they're 2 of the greatest players of the last 60 years.

 

[mpal6]

Don't wanna stir up a hornet's nest but I'd take any of the players Britzoon mentioned over Cam except JUH whose own team leaders refuse to play with him . Cam obviously can do things McGrath can't but McGrath is an honest goer who generally plays well stuck in a crap system.

Cam's still young enough to be the player people imagine him to be. But I don't think with his tank and the type of player he is you can expect him to do it regularly so in the meantime he can focus on doing what he can for the team.

Nah, I would've been in your camp on this one but not after last season.

What Rayner produced when it mattered has converted me to a believer again. I don't have a similar sample set from someone like Andy McGrath. He's still a honest goer and never seen a gamebreaker in him yet.

 

[martinson]

Nah, I would've been in your camp on this one but not after last season.

What Rayner produced when it mattered has converted me to a believer again. I don't have a similar sample set from someone like Andy McGrath. He's still a honest goer and never seen a gamebreaker in him yet.

Yep I probably wouldn't take McGrath either . My point was McGrath is far more consistent in a crap system and could be a lot better. But they're not comparable ,apples and oranges.